Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: JDoyle on February 26, 2003, 11:28:13 AM
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I normally prefer to play from the back tees box (the blues) when playing golf. Sometimes my playing partners object and request that we play from the regular tees (the whites). Under normal conditions, meaning a local course we have choosen, I can understand this because I know they are quite interested in their scores. However, if we are playing a course of distinction, I push much harder to play from the back pegs. I want to see the course from the best angle and experience what the course architect had invisioned.
I understand that hackers should not be slowing play for everyone else simply because they over-rate their abilities. But I do not think that applies here. All of our handicaps are between 4 and 10. By any fair measure we are also swift players who are very aware of pace of play.
I think it comes down to philosophy: those who are most interested in scoring low and those who want to play golf to lose yourself in the bliss of the sport.
A perfect round for my cousin would be the day he breaks 70. A perfect round for me would be New South Wales, Royal County Down or Cypress Point.
Has the scoring issue stolen part of the spirit of the game?
I am also interested in hear from posters on the tee issue.
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This is a very interesting question.
I seem to have different friends than yours - mine love to score well, but many also have a bad case of "tee ego"; that is, to them, it's not golf unless it's from the tips. Very few of them belong anywhere near said back tees also, and they end up with scores not up to their expectations, frustrated and wondering why. But dammit, they played the "men's" tees, they say!
In my experience there do seem to be many more players who do this than move up to shorter tees in the interest of lower scores. Believe me, I'll take your friends, thank you very much! They're not hurting anyone, they go faster, and end up happier.
In any case, to give my take on your question, golf for me is all about bliss. That can come from a great score, sure, but I've played long enough not to expect that and to get enjoyment from many other places. Thus unless it's competition (which is an entirely different game), I am the absolute anti-tee egotist, happy to play the purple challenger tees if that's what my playing partners want to do. I understand trying to see all of the architects intent, that is, "see the whole course", but I also know that tends to lead to frustration on all too many courses, as I hit long iron and fairway wood after long iron and fairway wood into greens, miss most of them, spend the whole day grinding out the short game, etc... For me there's much more bliss to be found in just playing wherever the others want and not beating oneself up.
I get crap all the time from my friends re this, as sadly I am the best player by far (I'm a humble 3-6 depending on the putts, and the best of them is a shaky 12). They can't believe I DON'T want to always play the tips and even try to get them to move up.... Then in my local club, even the low cappers there can't believe when I suggest we play "up".. I guess I am a strange cat after all. My basic take is I get beat up enough in competitive play - for casual rounds, what's the point?
A separate question occurs when playing a great course for the first and maybe only time. In those case, I can absolutely understand wanting to play the tips, to see the architects' intent, etc. We did such my one round at Shinnecock and though it thoroughly kicked my ass, I was ecstatic having it kicked... Somehow that seems to be the reason Shinnecock is there, to administer an ass-kicking, and I wanted the full measure. That occurs at famous courses all the time for me... But then if we have repeat rounds, move me on up, thank you very much. Perfect example was Sand Hills - I believe we did two rounds back, two rounds up, and that to me seemed perfect. "Saw" the course, got beat up, moved up, found it more playable - thus full enjoyment.
I ought to add one caveat - I will nearly never play forward tees while players I know are equal or lesser to me in skill play back. Thus I guess I do have some tee ego... for some reason the macho/competitive juices do fly in that rare instance and I move back! If I'm with people obviously better, than fire away, I don't care, I'll move up.
Maybe this makes no sense...
TH
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That's a good question. My friends and i have debated this one before. Perhaps we are too obsessed with score, but at the same time, if I shot a 110 at Pebble Beach, I don't think my memories of it would be as fond as an 88 at at Spanish Bay. Of course, if you shoot a 110, you're probably less likely to be someone that owuld really appreciate the architecture anyway.
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Come out and play The Ocean Course... We have two sets of tees behind the blues... :o
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Interesting thought, DTaylor. I guess that depends on the extremes and one's score expectations... If you record a score horrendously worse than your "average", well... it takes a lot of other positive factors to make that a fun, memorable round. That being said, it would also take one hell of a GREAT score to make for a fun memorable experience on an awful course playing with some jerks, wouldn't it?
I'd guess we all have instances of this on both sides. I again recall the one round at Shinnecock, where my score was easily 10-12 shots over what I would normally do, but I loved every second of it due to the great course and great people I was with. Even for a guy like me who actively tries not to care about score outside of competition (and even in competition doesn't get too wrapped up in it), well... it was an awful round score-wise and I ought to have cared. But I didn't, due to the extreme positives outside of my play.
Can't think of any great scores that were horrible experiences, but I'm sure I've had some... the memory just tends to block out the bad, for me!
TH
ps - in case this ever gets read by the folks I played with that trip, the same sentiment goes for the round at Yale the next day. I played as poorly as I possibly can (due to tremendous hangover and broken driver, hey, I need some excuse!), but loved every second of that round also. Great course, great people means it's very hard NOT to have fun.
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Or play Stanford, where the tees are named after the school colors, farthest back are Cardinal, then white and the two forward sets of tees (ladies???) are blue and gold, coincidently, the same colors as their hated cross-bay rival ;D
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"I want to see the course from the best angle and experience what the course architect had invisioned."
JDoyle, I guess I would, in a friendly way, question your assumption - that an architect necessarily thought the back tees were the "best" angle to experience what was envisioned. Isn't it the architect's responsibility to accommodate for all different skill levels (and tee locations) in his design? Not being versed at all at the usual practices of private clubs, if a course will most likely see heavy use from the middle tees, shouldn't the architect be striving to provide a memorable experience for all players, including the women?
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Nixer,
Great point. One of the reasons for my post is that I have recently started to question my logic on playing from the back pegs - as being the closer to the architect's vision and/or design. Perhaps it's a myth; and therefore a golfer can get all the pleasure and the full experience from the whites.
However, when I played Bethpage before the Open it was from the back. It made an already difficult course even more of a challenge. When I made a par on the terrific par 4 5th it felt like heroic golf. Three months later I played the same course from the whites and the same par on the same hole seemed like less of an acheivement.
Certainly there is a big difference between how the par three 8th hole plays from the two tees. The think the difference is about three clubs.
IMHO, I think the question is: 1.) Are you only adding distance when you go from the whites to the back pegs OR 2.) Are you changing the whole strategy of the hole?
If the answer is 2 - then I think you need to examine whether you are still playing the architect's course or something lesser.
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I am probably like one of Mr. Huckaby's friends who prefers playing the back tees without the requisite skills to do so. For me, it is not an issue of score, though to some extent I am probably of the card and pencil mentality. Rather, I see the back tees as the standard, i.e. the point from which the hole is conceptualized by the designers, and most elements of strategy come into play. As long as I can get to most holes in regulation without busting a seam, why would I move forward? I gain much more satisfaction from shooting an 82 from the tips of a difficult course than 79 from the forward tees.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with playing different tees within the group as long as all the players are in agreement and speed of play does not become an issue. After all, playing golf should be about enjoyment.
Many years ago, I played the Golf Club in New Albany, OH from the second set of tees. My score was in the low to mid 70s, including an eagle on a par 5 after reaching the green with an iron on my second shot. I came away having enjoyed the course, but to this day I don't understand all the fuss about it. I wonder if I had played the course from the back tees (around 7200 yards), whether my appreciation would have been greater. I had a similar experience at Pebble Beach, where after hitting my tee shot on 8, the marshall forced me to move up to the regular tees (no back tees were being used). Playing into 9 and 10 with a wedge and a sand wedge, and 17 with a short iron is just not the same.
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One more thing, anyone who plays the Kiawah-Ocean from the far back tees is nuts. Even in calm, warm weather. I think that even Tiger would have a difficult time shooting par.
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Lou,
Did you enjoy watching the big boys play Torrey this year...You do walk the walk playing the back tees on your last visit...Did you see my story about how I thought 12 was a par five until I found out they didn't have back to back fivers...If you ever play Bethpage...I would love to know if their monsters play as long.
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Funny Lou, the first thing I thought of when I read JDoyle's first post was the Ocean Course. Some of the forced carries from the back tees seem almost ridiculous - especially in the wind.
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Lou.
"I am probably like one of Mr. Huckaby's friends who prefers playing the back tees without the requisite skills to do so."
Who are you kidding? I like your deprecating comments on your game. Anyone who carries his bag for thirty six holes, is four under at Cypress after fourteen holes, is, in my opinion, able to play any tee that comes along.
Are you shilling for one a side from Huckaby next month?
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JakaB,
I did enjoy watching the tournament at TP-South, though I still can't believe that they were hitting 4-irons to 11 and 16 (both 230+ yards into the west; I hit a good 3 wood to 16 pin high in the left sand). I too had a similar first reaction to #12; a glimmer of hope after doubling 11 from behind a tree to the side of the right sand trap green high. The hole, #12, was marked at 501 yards, I think, and except for the Robert Trent Jones Trail, I had never seen a par 4 over 475 yards (I thought that there was a law against that). #13, a par 5, actually played shorter.
TP-S is one course where playing the back tees does not make sense. The pro there told me afterwards that they hardly ever use the back tees, even for professional competitions. Which of course begs the question of why they put them there. To spend $3.2 MM for "course improvements", with the biggest effect being ungodly length, is questionable. On the other hand, they did get the US Open, which I am sure will have a big economic impact in that area. I guess that the far back tees can serve as nurseries, less appealing eye candy, or for those of unsound mind.
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Bob,
I don't carry the moniker of "Mr. 84" at my home club because of my proficiency on the course. As my closing performance at CPC clearly showed, 14 holes does not make a round. But yes, I am trying to extract some meanigful concessions from young Huckaby. Afterall, I will be in his home turf, and he's been deep in my pocket on neutral ground. Now if only our ice would melt so that I can begin my training.
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Lou and Bob - last summer I was +2 after 12 holes at the Valley Club in Santa Barbara, finished with an 86. You do the math, that's ugly!
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This is an interesting thread. There are a few additional points to make.
Many classic courses (Shinnecock included) have been lengthened to try to keep up with the modern game. Therefore, it seems that by definition if one plays from those new tees, one is not playing the golf course as was intended by the designer. It is unlikely that, except in a rare cases, new equipment, better players, or better course conditioning accurately recreate the original intentions of the designer when used from the new tees, unless bunkers, fairway contours, etc. have been changed also.
Evidence suggests that the average golfer has not reaped the benefits of new equipment as have the best golfers. Therefore, it is likely that the average golfer will play the course as its designer intended if he pays from the original tees, unless the course has been altered to play as if it had been designed from the new back tees.
Convoluted, I know, but here is what I think is key- play the course from the tees which will give you the most pleasure.
My friends an I often play from different sets of tees on different holes. For example, at Crooked Stick, we play from the way back on some holes (No. 2, 3, 9, etc.), but do not use the far back tees on others (No. 6, 10, 16). It makes the posting of scores for handicap a little more difficult (it can be done) but we play each hole for the challenge and the enjoyment.
When setting up a course for a tournament, I will choose the tees on each hole for a desired effect- to bring a hazard into play for example- or perhaps to take one out of play. The PGA Tour, the USGA, and other organizations remain flexible with tee placement in order to account for weather. Rarely are championships played strictly from "the backs."
It is impossible to build a course that plays the same for players of all abilities. So why play the same tees on every hole?
Here's a fun suggestion- in friendly matches, allow the person with the honor to choose which tees to play the next hole from. Kind of like HORSE in basketball. In fact, disregard the tee markers completely. PLat it from wherever the guy with the honors wants!
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I play REAL golf and in my mind that means the blues -- what others do is their business. The key in any event is not holding up play. Keep in mind those who do hold up play at the blues are likely to hold up play from just about from anywhere.
I will say this -- when facilities do not permit capable players in playing the championship markers provided they do not slow thins down that's simply BS period! Pebble used to do this (in fact it will may still) with just one tee box per hole. I can remember quite a few SOOOOOOOOOOOO far forward it really did not seem like I was playing PB.
I don't doubt there are plenty of wannnnabeeee types who have blue tee syndrome and should be promptly escorted as they double digit on each and every hole. I've gone through this nonsense when playing the Black at Bethpage this past summer.
If you really want to assess the overall merits of the course I say the blues / tips will give you the deepest assessment of a course and its design strengths / weaknesses.
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Sorry Matt, "REAL" golf is played from all the boxes.
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Jim K:
I loved your PC answer! ;)
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;D
Playing the whites (third of 4 sets from tips) this winter because of chronic bad shoulder and winter softness of links..
I've seen Lou D hit the ball and he can play anywhere,.. but if my shoulder heals, I want a piece of him from any tees.. or a mixture of tees, he'll probably win stroke, but maybe not match play.. if we're not bogging things down, why not play from wherever?
I don't think many Marshalls do their job well, but that's another thread. Occaisionally with some friends, we tee it in the ground in very odd places removed from the official tees. Take that MR Marshall! Now that's golf.
Now, I've played Oak Tree in Edmond, OK from the tips a half dozen times.. that's an experience all should enjoy, and its definitely better than from the next forward tees, but only if you're on your game or need an emergency 9.
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The funniest part of all of this is Lou calling Pasatiempo my "home turf". Oh, I've played there a bit, but given how damn expensive it is, the wife allows me one, maybe two times a year there at most. Sure I used to play it a lot in college, but that's 20 years ago now!
In a perfect world it would be my home turf. Someone want to give me $350K to make this dream come true?
In any case, I wasn't keeping really good score, but I must have been lucky to break 90 last time at CPC. Given Lou's sub-par performance there, we know who should be giving whom strokes when he and I play.
TH
ps - I got a kick out of Matt saying he plays REAL golf, and that's only from the blues, with the obvious implication that those who play from other tees are playing some different game. That's silly, Matt. Of course for YOU, shortening a golf course would be stupid. But for the remaining 99.9% of the world who doesn't average 330+ off the tee, whatever set of tees promotes the most pleasurable round most definitely provides very real golf.
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Jim Sweeney, if you're referring to the Crooked Stick in Carmel, IN; I'd love to propose an exchange of rounds with ya - I'll treat you to one round at my home course (one of several fine Indy munis) and you treat me to a round at Crooked Stick ;D
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For those concerned with architecture, why are the original tees not sought out? At Aronimink, the back tee they added on 15 makes that some ungodly length, but was that the intent of Ross? With classic cases updated, and lengthened, why would true architecture students care what blocks they hit from?
Chas has a good point, do you think that Dye designed the Ocean Course from the very back tees? Conversely, does anyone think that Raynor was designing strategy for the forward tees?
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Steve L,
Compared to our esteemed friend Andy, I am a short hitter. Nevertheless, I would prefer playing him from the back tees, if for no other reason than the par 5s would not be as easily reachable for him on two. BTW, your challenge is accepted.
Tom, Tom,
How can you not call the penninsulas your home turf? You have played Pasa many times, CPC possibly less often, and every other course of note on more than one occasion. You are used to the weather there and the grasses. And as you know, 2/3 of a round doesn't count for anything. Or have you forgotten the a-- kicking you administered to me in NE?
But, on this thread we are talking about personal preferences on which tees to play. I generally agree with Huck that we should play from the set of tees from which we gain the most pleasure in our round (though I've seen Ben Hogan many years ago walking from tee to green at Shady Oaks in Fort Worth with just a ball and a putter, and we all know how much he enjoyed putting; arriving at the green, he placed the ball on the surface, putted to the flag, and on to the next hole walking badly by way of the tee, down the middle of the fairway, to the green where he repeated the process).
Personally, I don't know what is worse, the hack who can't hit the ball 240 or so and keep it on the course, but insists on playing the tips, or the player who likes to hit mid-irons second shots to par fives and short clubs to everything else so he can shoot in the low 70s. From my experience, both types of vanities cry out for a referral to Dr. Katz, and these folks should not be allowed on the course without a personal marshall to hurry them along.
People play golf for many different reasons, and thank God that most courses have 3 to 4 (or more) sets of tees. Pick the one you like, play safe, and play fast!
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Not the first time I have disagreed with Lou....
Although the golf course is designed from the back and hazards are placed at a distance assumed to create options for the best players. Shorter tee boxes are placed in an effort to achieve the same results for players who hit the ball less far.
The result of course is that a mid eighties player who might hit his drives 225 off the tee completely avoids the hazards by playing from a tee box designed for a player who hits it 266+.
The situation at my home course breaks down like this. Club games are run from the white tees(6300 yards). During the winter months in the Northwest this can be quite a test. During summer dry months the course shortens considerably. During summer the best players should move back. Mid level players should stay on the whites. Seniors should be playing from the next tee up.
Interestingly the Women always play from their rear tee. When in all honesty it is far too long for 99% of them. With that in mind who really has the big ego?
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Interesting topic. For me and my 13.6 USGA index, I've found that length off the tee is not the problem so much as the longer shots into the greens and the tough recoveries after missing said greens. At my club I usually always play the blues (6583 yards). There are really only three holes where I'll play the blues differently than the whites (6285 yards).
Yardage isn't everything of course, but in general terms I've found that I can not make a fool of myself up to around 6800 yards. Of course a lot of it has to do with were the yardage comes from. Long par 4s (over, say, 430 yards) or long par 3s (greater than 180) cause much greater problems than 570 yard par 5s do.
On Monday I played 36 at Southern Dunes outside Orlando. The first 18 I played from the blues (6800) and shot 99! The second 18 I played from the whites (6300) and shot 91. And the 91 included a couple of bad scores due to "going for" shots that I usually wouldn't go for.
Interestingly enough I parred the #1 handicap hole from both the blues and the whites. Driver, 4 iron from the blues. Driver, 6 iron from the whites.
I don't have any firm rules but as guidelines I try to stay under 6700/6800 yards, 130 slope and 72 rating. Once in a while I'll step back to the 7000 yard tees and have a go at it. I usually regret it.
I apply the same principle whether I'm playing my club, a local course, or a "special" course - Cuscowilla, Tidewater, Southern Dunes...
TimT
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I am beginning to feel as though I belong to the untermenschen, hearing talk of a "hack' only being able to drive the ball 240yards. Here on the Peninsula with heavy air, little roll a bit of fog thrown in, I feel 240 is a monstrous hit. Of course I have seen Mahaffey and Wigler out beyond the 290 mark but to me, that is superman territory.
There was a TV/Radio personality at Olympic some years ago by the name of Doug Pledger who always said if "you can't par the course from the whites, what on earth are you playing the blues."
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:o In regards to your post, the last time I played from the tips in a match i got ranned over 6 and 5. It wasn't pretty. Oh well, I guess I'll stick to the golds.
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Tom H:
I'm just having some fun when I say the term "REAL" golf. Look, I can frankly care less where people play as long as they play fast.
I do think that far too many times there will be people making an assessment of a course simply from the front and middle tees who don't even turn their heads to see where the blues are located.
When you go the blues the sheer intensity goes up dramatically and the angles you are forced to contend with also force a higher level of shotmaking.
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Fine with me also, Matt. I'd just add that the vast majority of golfers SHOULD never turn and look at the blues, that they get all the intensity they need from the whites or closer... But for golfers of a decent skill level, yes, I'd agree there is more to be seen from the back tees.
TH
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:D
I second the opinion of Bob Huntley's Olympic reference.. Where can you par it from?
When I started playing in the Woodlands back in 92, about 80 lbs ago and when my wife was travelling a lot for work, I got down to a 5.3 index.. playing mainly from the Blues (2nd in from tips). My favorite marshall, the adoptive father type, challenged me to par the West Course from the white tees before I wore myself out from the Blues, even though I was playing fairly well.. Long-story-short, it took about three months and a lot of near misses to bring it all the way home in par. That was a great learning experience, and made for some fun trash talking with that Marshall. It then took me about two years to do it from the Blues and I've never been truly consistent enough to do it from the tips.
We all need a reality check. and BTW I for one now consider myself a hack if I only drive it 240 yds. But I do play qucikly. Gettin old is hell, the older I get, the longer I used to be!
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Of course, if you shoot a 110, you're probably less likely to be someone that owuld really appreciate the architecture anyway.
Ahem... we appreciate it. Our theoretically envisioned shots have nothing to do with our results with the golf ball. We get more angles to the green, get intimate with the rough, develope bunker recognition by repetition of meeting with them (very formal sometimes), hate water, love a topped shot if she runs (thus we see more action in the land), get to tee off last, get to see how balls roll across the whole green or surrounds, and rarely do we have to mess with the arduous ordeal of pulling and replacing the flagstick.
In picking a tee color, I look at the par three distances, how windy it is, carry yardages, and then just go along with whatever everybody else is doing.
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Why not play from both?
You guys probably negotiate for strokes on the first tee, so why not negotiate for distance? Afterall, the strokes you are trying to get are to make up for your needing two woods and a wedge to every par 4 played from the tips.
I know testosterone gets in the way, but perhaps this would enable all players in your group to both be competitive and have a little fun. Just a thought.
Bill Yates
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Cos- I don't know that we are in disagreement on this one. There are some architects who take great pains in placing most tees and some hazards at distances and angles to challenge all types of players. My personal preference is to play from the backs even though my score likely suffers as a result of it. My main point is that we should play and compete from the set of tees of our choice. In my group at home, we have several guys that due to age and other reasons prefer to play the forward tees. We setup the game accordingly; even within the same foursome, some play the backs and some the fronts. At $2 per bet, no one ever gets hurt too badly. BTW, our disagreement on Kiawah-River maybe had something to do with the tees we played. And within our group, three of us played the backs, and Ed Morrissett played the fronts. Which tees did you play?
Mr. Huntley- let's not make this personal! :) You are the antithesis of a hack. Like Mr. Morrissett who humbly told us upfront that he was not a very good player, and then proceeded to hit most fairways and greens, I would take either of you as a partner without hesitation from whatever set of tees you feel comfortable. I am talking about the 100+ player who on his best shot can't hit the ball 240 yards AND the fairway, but insists on playing the course for its full worth.
Concerning playing the front tees until you can shoot par, isn't that akin to dumbing down the examination? This may not be a good analogy, but should schools have different sets of tests so that everyone has the opportunity to get an A? It seems to me that if a guy like Matt Ward would play the front tees to just shoot a good score, a big part of the challenge and interest of the game would be lost to him. And I would wager that his skills would diminish over the long-run. I thought that golf was supposed to be difficult (something to the effect of exhausting yourself, but never the subject).
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Some five or six years ago, a visiting college side played a match against some club members of advancing years. Instead of the usual stroke grovelling routine, each college player gave up his difference in age with his opponent, in yards, except on par threes. I drove, picked up the ball and walked forty seven yards, dropped the ball and played from there.
A fairly good game was had by all, although on a couple of occasions even after my perambulations I was some distance away from my opponent's ball.
I might try this at Pasatiempo!
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OK LOu we don't disagree that much..I knew I could pick on you a bit in good humor. I played from the longer but not the back set of tees at River Course. ]
My only point was that if you play from too far back and don't have a load of length, the hazards are simply out of play. The emphasis is too much on length rather than shot making.
I must admit that the older I get, the shorter I hit it and the more interested I become in shotmaking!! :-/
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Play the course as it was meant to be played. I always say that if you find yourself hitting wedges into most of the par 4s, move back. If you find yourself hitting fairway woods (or needing three) to reach most of the par 4s, move up. Within that range its up to how much challenge you seek.
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Jonathan,
When you go to Sand Hills this summer, my advice is to mix it up between blue and white. Probably play the back in the morning as the wind is lighter, but don't be afraid to mix it up during the same round. There is no course rating at SH, so don't worry about your score. 4 and 18 NEED to be played from both sets of tees and you will remember them as 4 separate holes :)
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Bob H
Love that "difference in age/yards" way of handicapping, increasingly so as the years go by........
However, rather than bringing my ball forward, I would far prefer to be allowed kick my young buck opponent's ball backwards. That'll bring long irons and shotmaking back into the game.........
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Rihc.
What a good idea. I'll try it out the next time we do it.
Bob
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Bbo
Try it at Pasa. You've got seniority......
PS--ever hear the story of Henry Cotton in the one and only time he played mixed foursomes with his wife Babs? He told her sternly to do anything but put him in the rough and then proceded to stripe his ball 260 or so down the first into a little bit of semi. Babs looked at her lie, did a 180 degree turn and hit her 5 wood halfway back down the 1st fairway. "Never put me in the rough, either!" she said.
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Rich - wouldn't doing this at Pasa defeat the entire purpose of the "holes won" scoring system? I thought the idea there was to have no handicapping whatsoever....
Sorry to be so humorless about this, any other time it's one hell of a great idea... and if Mr. Huntley insists on it, I sure as hell won't be the one to tell him no...
Whaddya think?
TH