Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Mike Vegis @ Kiawah on February 28, 2003, 07:18:15 AM
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Let the games begin!
1. Pine Valley Golf Club (p)
Pine Valley, N.J.
2. Cypress Point Club (p)
Monterey, Calif.
3. Augusta National Golf Club (p)
Augusta, Ga.
4. Pebble Beach Golf Links (r)
Pebble Beach, Calif.
5. Shinnecock Hills Golf Club (p)
Southampton, N.Y.
6. Oakmont Country Club (p)
Oakmont, Pa.
7. Merion Golf Club (East Course) (p)
Ardmore, Pa.
8. Crystal Downs Country Club (p)
Frankfort, Mich.
9. National Golf Links of America (p)
Southampton, N.Y.
10. Pinehurst Resort and Country Club (No. 2 Course) (r)
Pinehurst, N.C.
11. Prairie Dunes Country Club (p)
Hutchinson, Kan.
12. Fishers Island Golf Club (p)
Fishers Island, N.Y.
13. San Francisco Golf Club (p)
San Francisco
14. Seminole Golf Club (p)
North Palm Beach, Fla.
15. Chicago Golf Club (p)
Wheaton, Ill.
16. Winged Foot Golf Club
(West Course) (p)
Mamaroneck, N.Y.
17. Oakland Hills Country Club
(South Course) (p)
Birmingham, Mich.
18. The Country Club
(Composite Course) (p)
Brookline, Mass.
19. Bethpage State Park
(Black Course) (d)
Farmingdale, N.Y.
20. Garden City Golf Club (p)
Garden City, N.Y.
21. The Olympic Club (Lake Course) (p)
San Francisco
22. Wannamoisett Country Club (p)
Rumford, R.I.
23. Riviera Country Club (p)
Pacific Palisades, Calif.
24. Southern Hills Country Club (p)
Tulsa, Okla.
25. Los Angeles Country Club
(North Course) (p)
Los Angeles
26. Quaker Ridge Golf Club (p)
Scarsdale, N.Y.
27. Winged Foot Golf Club
(East Course) (p)
Mamaroneck, N.Y.
28. Shoreacres (p)
Lake Bluff, Ill.
29. Medinah Country Club
(No. 3 Course) (p)
Medinah, Ill.
30. Plainfield Country Club (p)
Plainfield, N.J.
31. Baltusrol Country Club
(Lower Course) (p)
Springfield, N.J.
32. Camargo Club (p)
Indian Hill, Ohio
33. East Lake Golf Club (p)
Atlanta
34. Baltimore Country Club
(East Course) (p)
Timonium, Md.
35. Holston Hills Country Club (p)
Knoxville, Tenn.
36. Oak Hill Country Club
(East Course) (p)
Pittsford, N.Y.
37. Maidstone Club (p)
East Hampton, N.Y.
38. Yeamans Hall Club (p)
Hanahan, S.C.
39. Salem Country Club (p)
Peabody, Mass.
40. Valley Club of Montecito (p)
Santa Barbara, Calif.
41. Inverness Club (p)
Toledo, Ohio
42. Somerset Hills Country Club (p)
Bernardsville, N.J.
43. Homestead Resort
(Cascades Golf Club) (r)
Hot Springs, Va.
44. Pasatiempo Golf Club (d)
Santa Cruz, Calif.
45. Scioto Country Club (p)
Columbus, Ohio
46. Milwaukee Country Club (p)
Milwaukee
47. Newport Country Club (p)
Newport, R.I.
48. Interlachen Country Club (p)
Edina, Minn.
49. White Bear Yacht Club (p)
White Bear Lake, Minn.
50. Fenway Golf Club (p)
Scarsdale, N.Y.
51. Myopia Hunt Club (p)
Hamilton, Mass.
52. Olympia Fields Country Club
(North Course) (p)
Olympia Fields, Ill.
53. NCR Country Club
(South Course) (p)
Kettering, Ohio
54. Peachtree Golf Club (p)
Atlanta
55. Congressional Country Club (Blue Course) (p)
Bethesda, Md.
56. Point O’Woods Golf Club (p)
Benton Harbor, Mich.
57. Essex County Club (p)
Manchester-by-the-Sea, Mass.
58. Colonial Country Club (p)
Fort Worth, Texas.
59. Aronimink Golf Club (p)
Newtown Square, Pa.
60. Baltusrol Country Club
(Upper Course) (p)
Springfield, N.J.
61. Cherry Hills Country Club (p)
Englewood, Colo.
62. Country Club of Fairfield (p)
Fairfield, Conn.
63. Kittansett Club (p)
Marion, Mass.
64. Moraine Country Club (p)
Kettering, Ohio
65. Huntingdon Valley Country Club (p)
Abingdon, Pa.
66. Piping Rock Club (p)
Locust Valley, N.Y.
67. Lancaster Country Club (p)
Lancaster, Pa.
68. Creek Club (p)
Locust Valley. N.Y.
69. Manufacturers Golf & Country Club (p)
Oreland, Pa.
70. Lawsonia Golf Club
(Links Course) (d)
Green Lake, Wis.
71. Ridgewood Country Club
(East/West Course) (p)
Paramus, N.J.
72. Brookside Country Club (p)
Canton, Ohio
73. Fox Chapel Golf Club (p)
Pittsburgh
74. Country Club of Detroit (p)
Grosse Pointe Farms, Mich.
75. Philadelphia Country Club
(Spring Mill Course) (p)
Gladwyne, Pa.
76. Lehigh Country Club (p)
Allentown, Pa.
77. Rolling Green Golf Club (p)
Springfield, Pa.
78. Whippoorwill Club (p)*
Armonk, N.Y.
79. Bel-Air Country Club (p)
Los Angeles
80. Pine Needles Country Club (r)
Southern Pines, N.C.
81. Yale Golf Course (p)
New Haven, Conn.
82. Saucon Valley Country Club
(Old Course) (p)
Bethlehem, Pa.
83. Canterbury Golf Club (p)
Beachwood, Ohio
84. Taconic Golf Club (p)
Williamstown, Mass.
85. Indianwood Country Club
(Old Course) (p)
Lake Orion, Mich.
86. Philadelphia Cricket Club (p)
Flourtown, Pa.
87. Westchester Country Club
(West Course) (p)
Rye, N.Y.
88. Minikahda Club (p)
Minneapolis
89. Firestone Country Club
(South Course) (p)
Akron, Ohio
90. Sankaty Head Golf Club (p)
Siasconset, Mass.
91. Dunes Golf & Beach Club (r)
Myrtle Beach, S.C.
92. California Golf Course (p)*
South San Francisco, Calif.
93. Franklin Hills Country Club (p)
Franklin, Mich.
94. Monterey Peninsula Country Club (Dunes Course) (p)
Monterey, Calif.
95. The Country Club (p)
Pepper Pike, Ohio.
96. Wykagyl Country Club (p)
New Rochelle, N.Y.
97. St. Louis Country Club (p)
Ladue, Mo.
98. Saucon Valley Country Club
(Grace Course) (p)
Bethlehem, Pa.
99. Champions Golf Club
(Cypress Creek Course) (p)
Houston
100. Mountain Lake Club (p)
Lake Wales, Fla.
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I love SFGC, but I can't see it occupying a slot higher than WF(west)
Additionally, Fishers Island, as great as it is, also seems a bit high. I think it has risen dramatically Y-O-Y for the last 2-3.
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Aw hell, no one's ever gonna get this "perfect" in the eyes of every single reader... I could nit-pick a few things myself, but in general this looks like a damn fine list to me.
What's gonna be more interesting is the modern... can you post that also, Mike?
edit - whoops - shoulda been more patient!
TH
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Just did it... It's all on Golfweek's web site. In the hard copy, there's a nice picture of TOC (West)'s 17th...
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Great to see Fenway move up.
Yale I have mixed emotions about. The architecture belongs in the top 25 in spite of the butchering over the past years by the committee of amateurs leading Roger Rulewich around. Moving up some 15 slots can only encourage them and I know more work is in store for late summer and fall.
Saucon Valley Grace again on the list? Yikes
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You're not alone in this, Dave. At first I was equally bent out of shape about Cal Club at 92 and MPCC Dunes at 94. I'm happy each was included, but the order should be reversed. But then you realize the TINY numbers that likely separate these, and well... what the hell. I think being on here at all is good for those two, and as for your 28 and 29, just try to remember the likely tiny numerical differences...
TH
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SPDB
Fishers Island actually dropped two from last year when it was 10th. Before that it was 11, 12, 13, 11, 14.
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For reference, does anyone have handy last years list?
Shivas,
you're not out of it, Shoreacres is too high, IMO, on an absolute basis, and relative to other Raynors.
By the way, is the "California Golf Course", the Cal Club?
nice to see Steamshovel Banks make it on his own with Whipporwill
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By the way, is the "California Golf Course", the Cal Club?
It HAS to be. That's the only golf course close to this name in S. San Francisco. Pretty strange mistake... NCGA most definitely lists them as "California GC". That's always meant California Golf CLUB without a doubt... But hmmm... maybe I have it wrong? In any case, it is the place we all know as the "Cal Club". You can see it from I-280.
TH
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Shoreacres was 32nd last year. Before that 32, 35, 32, 39, 61, 61.
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This list is spot on perfect except that Landcaster CC at 67 should be reversed with Ridgewood CC at 71. Then it will be just like the list Moses brought down from the mountain.
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I've played Shoreacres and I agree its ranking is a bit high. I like St.Louis and Camargo more than SA. I haven't played Medinah and have never really had a desire to do so.
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Why is Taconic listed as private? I'm almost positive it's open to the public.
Whippoorwill entering for the first time IS interesting...I've heard that little-known Banks course Cavalier G&CC in Virginia Beach is going through a true restoration that is supposed to knock your socks off.
The 'U.S. Open Effect' takes hold again, with Bethpage (Black) moving up to #19.
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You are right that one can never get a list of this nature "right." It is all in the eye of the beholder.
One interesting note: I counted only 3 courses out of the 100 that had the (d) next to them: 19. Bethpage, 44. pasa, and 70, Lawsonia.
Not sure how many (r)'s there were. Just an interesting sidenote. . . .
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Come on now! Medinah better than ShoreAcres. PLEASE! Medinah just got Rees Jonesed! Has anyone seen the redo. It is a massive golf course with no character at all. ShoreAcres is a masterpiece and Medinah is just a golf factory. Thousands and thousands of rounds of golf played out a cart with the only talk going on being about business.
I think its shameful that someone on GolfClubAtlas.com would even think that Medinah was better golf course architecturally speaking than ShoreAcres. Come on Bendelow versus Seth Raynor.
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I may as well just name my dog "Minnesota" and use this issue of golfweek to line his cage.
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Winged Foot's ranking is too low.......it is not the 16th best course in the country.....it is definitely top 10 if not top 6.......it is better than Pinehurst, Prairie Dunes, Crystal Downs, Fishers Island, SFGC, Chicago and Seminole. They are an equal to Oakmont and Merion also. And Bethpage at #19???? Just because it is a public course and got a US Open, it does not deserve this high a ranking. I love CC of Fairfield also...but way too high..........who was even allowed out there to rank it? I know a few higher ups at Golf Digest are members, but I was under assumption they do not allow rankers out there.
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Can someone explain the standard GW uses for considering a course to be a classic? Congressional CC certainly deserves to be a top-100, but why is it on the classic list? I just looked at a 1937 aerial of the course, which I assume is pretty close to the 1930 Ross version and I see little similarity between it and the RTJ/Rees Jones version that's on the ground now.
Even with the 1960 cutoff, Congressional would miss. The Jones's work was in the 60s and the 80s.
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rpurd:
Most course raters are well travelled and pretty well connected in the world of golf. Therefore, we do not rely entirely on our rater credentials to gain access to private courses. I have played many courses that may not welcome raters as guest of a member. Besides, many clubs that have a reputation of not accepting raters will accommodate a rater if approached properly.
One other small point of semantics. Raters "rate" courses against a set of criteria. We are not "rankers". We submit our rating and the ranking is done my the numbers guys who compile and summarize the ratings to produce the rankings.
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Classical are those originally built prior to 1960. Modern are those built 1960 and after, I believe...
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Winged Foot's ranking is too low.......it is not the 16th best course in the country.....it is definitely top 10 if not top 6.......
Rupert:
What is the difference between #16 and #10?
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Rpurd: thanks for the clarification on how the rating "game" works. Damn there's a lot of misconception... I had to defend myself on another thread re this (I'm on the GD panel). One thing though: whilst many of us CAN gain access to most private clubs through friends/connections, even at those, don't you sometimes prefer going as a "rater" rather than prevailing upon a friend or acquaintance for a favor? I know this works many ways but in my short time, well... people do LOTS of favors for me, for which I am immensely grateful... so those times I don't "have to ask", well... I cherish those. Not sure how this effects my ability to complete the "rating" side, but at least I know I feel a lot better not having to ask friends/connections to go out of their way for me...
And Mike V. - please forgive my density - MAJOR congrats for Kiawah Ocean's increased rise on the other list. Very cool.
TH
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John,
the only significance i see in Winged Foot's ranking, is that it is below SFGC. Since they are both Tillie, the message to take away from this is that SFGC is Tille's finest design. It is probably arguable, but not so in my opinion.
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Mr Huckaby
Do you always inform the club that you are a rater?
redanman - in my short experience as a rater, the answer to that is a firm no. Of the courses I played in the last year where I played and then turned in a rating, it runs about 2 to 1 against making any mention of this.
I humbly defer to you veterans though, and I aim to learn... should I always tell said club?
TH
ps - when I visited a certain fantastic Flynn course in October 2001, I was not yet on the GD panel....
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It looks to me that no course has bounced up and down the list like Taconic... from 70, up to 40, then back down to 84 this year. Is this due to simply the remoteness of it and the probable low amount of play it receives from panelists? I have played it yearly, and to me it seems like it should be consistently rated up in the top 50 with courses such as Salem and Oak Hill. But high rating or not, it is without a doubt my favorite golf experience year in and year out!!
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Tom:
I think your comments to rpurd were meant for me.
I rarely "prevail" on a member for a favor to play a private course. I prefer to use my rater credentials for access even if I happen to know a member. For example, last year I accessed Shoreacrers and Skokie as a rater although I know several members. On the same trip I accepted an invitation from an old freind to play Chicago Golf, where I did not even mention being a rater. I have had the good fortune of being invited to play some fine private clubs, but if it is worth it, I will "prevail" on a member. In the past couple of years I have done that at Seminole, Honors Course, and Fishers Island. I may do the same this year at Crystal Downs and NGLA. It was/will be worth it!
Jim
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You don't seem "crusty" to me, Jim! I do appreciate the response, and sorry for misdirecting my post before.
I believe I handle this the same as you - I can't imagine going somewhere as a guest of a member and then telling them whilst there that I'm on a rating panel for a magazine... what would be the purpose?
Interesting too... would being a rater even matter at many of the places you mention? In my naivete, I just rely on what GD says, which makes it pretty clear which clubs want to accomodate raters and which don't... most of the ones you mention are very clearly on the "don't" side anyway!
I get what you said before though - with tact, anything is possible. I'm just not sure I've developed such tact as of yet.
TH
ps - I too have been invited to many great places, some of which we likely have in common. In each case I was and am most certainly very, very grateful... I guess "prevail" was too strong a word before. Oh hell, I'm confused myself now!
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I agree that Taconic is one of the best classic courses I've ever played. As to the previous question of whether it is private or not, the answer is sort of. It is definitely open to the public, as it is owend by WIlliams College. However, they don't make it easy for you, and there are members there who have priority. So yes anyone can play it, but you better be flexible on when you're willing to play. It's also very expensive for a course in the middle of nowhere, but it's so good that it's worth it.
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Sweet - Essex County Club squeaks upward to #57 on the classical list, even with the changes to the par 3, 13th that had to be built due to the uruly neighbor. (its replacement's a darn good hole, too, Tom D.)
Chip
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I almost fell off my chair laughing when I saw Shoreacres listed as the 28th best classical course in the USA. ;D
It seems certain raters from GolfWeek who fancy this "archiectural classic" are really into the Raynor experience although many of the holes at the layout are fairly pedestrian.
While Medinah is clearly a tougher layout than Shoreacres I'm not a fan of the course and don't see why these two layouts drop a bit further down the poll.
WHATEVER HAPPENED TO SKOKIE? I guess many people simply forgotten this gem. In my mind if Shoreacres and Medinah are in the first third of courses than Skokie has to be listed as well in the top 100.
A couple of other quick comments ...
*Yale rated in the top 100 INSPITE of mediocre turf conditions. Again, I believe we have a situation where people are rating the course who what it COULD BE rather than what it is.
*How does Saucon Valley merit inclusion of the Old & Grace Courses within the Top 100? I don't doubt the Old has some qualities but it's not enough to merit such an inclusion. The Grace is simply overrated in my book. How it maintains it's position simply amazes me.
*Interlachen and White Bear Yacht Club in the top 50. Really?
*When people harp on Bethpage Black I will concede an element of truth to the point about the fanfare attached to its hosting of the Open. However, if not 19th then what # would be fair? I can't see the Black being lower than 25th.
*Shinnecock Hills only at 5th? Can't see it. In my mind SH is the finest day-to-day course for all types of players and the ones ahead of it are clearly first rate layouts but in my book SH is the premier course in the USA. After the Open in '04 I'm sure SH will rise to the level it deserves.
*Fisher's Island and Prairie Dunes are both gems -- but 11th and 12th respectively? That's a bit too high in my book especially when Winged Foot / West and and Riviera are rated below it at 16th and 23rd respectively.
*Is Scioto really still a meritious selection for the top 50?
*Wykagyl in the top 100? A fine course no doubt but I see a stretch here because I can name several othert bonafide candidates that can meet and exceed the qualities of the New Rochelle layout.
*Cherry Hills rated 61st? A great example of a course that gets by because of its isolation in the Denver area. Throw the course into the stretch of territory between Phillie and the NY metro area and it gets simply swallowed up.
*Can someone explain to me what people see in Champions / Cypress Creek course?
On the kudos side:
*Fenway (long overdue recognition)
*Lehigh (although I still believe the course suffers for a few long par-4's)
*Westchester CC (course gets little serious attention depite hosting a tour event)
*Lawsonia / Links (wonderful and often underrated and underappreciated Langford & Moreau design)
More to follow ...
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redanman,
Where did you get the composite list of 100 best classical courses? Could you provide me a link or e-mail me a copy if you made it?
The cut and paste version is a little unclear, and i'm trying to put together a clear list for reference.
Thanks,
Brad