Post by: Ran Morrissett on September 16, 2001, 06:40:00 PM
So what are they?
...a poor architect/design? Nope, William Flynn was OK the last time I checked.
...a poor piece of property? Nope, unless playing in the foothills with plenty of unique topo in and across a river valley is out of vogue.
...the design has been tampered with/modernized/ruined? Nope, it is 90% plus pure Flynn and the Club jealously guards that distinction with great pride.
...poor conditioning? Nope, just the opposite. The course plays firm and fast so that the bunker that is 25 yards shy of the fallaway 10th green is very much in play.
...weak holes? None and as for least favorites, there isn't a single logical candidate that three golfers would agree upon.
...lack of short game interest? Nope, just the opposite, especially with the way the bunker shoulders have built up with time. Several times, I was 25 feet from the hole and had at least 10 feet of break. Though the greens and their surrounds aren't overtly dramatic, there are an amazing number of areas where you are toast, with no hope of getting up and down.
...not hard enough? Only 70 shots to cover 6,600 yards.
...favorite type holes like short par fours and gambling par fives? Check to both.
...ambience? Plenty to spare.
So what can it be?
I truly don't know.
While it may not have any world class Flynn holes ala 11 and 16 Shinnecock Hills and 12 and 16 at The Cascades, it has a staggering number of very good holes (2,3,4,8,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17, and 18) with the remaining 5 holes being fine holes in their own right.
The tiger golfer may say that there isn't a par four over 430 yards until the last hole. Conversely, I would say that the 4 one shotters take up 800 yards and that there are only two par fives for the tiger to try and pillage. And trying to make up ground on these Flynn par fours is no easy task.
Overall, it is the kind of course that a member would love to belong to in that it is very much a chess game with the golfer continually needing to place himself in the best position for his next shot. Stop thinking and the strokes start adding up, though you are unlikely to loss a ball nor spend much time looking for one.
Such courses should be recognized by the major publications in their rankings and Mark Fine has captured Lehigh CC's charms very well on this site under his My Home Course entry.
Please check it out and tell me if the course seems to missing any of your favorite type holes.
Cheers,
Post by: Mike_Cirba on September 16, 2001, 06:48:00 PM
Glad to hear you enjoyed Lehigh. I know you were looking forward to getting up there. 
Was the rating I shared with you accurate, or would you place it higher?
As far as weaknesses, I think it's the lack of the spectacular, or the controversial (excepting perhaps 11). It's also one of the best routings I've seen.
However, I would have to believe that its failure to crack the Top 100 lists is simply due to the fact that it has a history of being quite exclusive and I really don't think enough raters have made it out there to give due credit.
Post by: Tommy_Naccarato on September 16, 2001, 07:11:00 PM
As Mark Fine has amply pointed at many times, Lehigh is the forgotten son, and a unfair one at that.
Case in point #1
Last year some time just after my return from my introduction to the Philly School, I couldn't remember in a post which course I played on Wednesday. Mark had to remind me, "Lehigh dummy!" (Well he wasn't that terse, but he should have been!
Case in point #2
After receiving much fanfare from myself and other Golfweek panelists, somehow, someone forgot to add Lehigh to the 2000 Golfweek ballot. Not needing to go into detail, that mistake will not be made again in 2001. I was assured of it. (Right Jon? )
Lehigh is Top 50 all the way. (Maybe better, we'll see.) I will let the rest of you to decide it's greatness by simply hitting-up Mark or Bill Vostinak to play there.
For me, one of Lehigh's greatest strengths is its routing. It's makes so much out of a pretty severe piece of terrain. I think ALL modern golf architects should venture to Allentown to see just how to route a golf course on such land.
Post by: Matt_Ward on September 16, 2001, 07:36:00 PM
Post by: APBernstein on September 17, 2001, 08:47:00 AM
But on the merits of the course, there is nothing to say that hasn't or will be said. But let me say that I don't think there is a finer course from 60 yards and in, at least that I have seen. The 10th green complex (and by complex I am including the bunker 25 yards short of the green) is one of the finest I have witnessed to date.
Post by: Tommy_Naccarato on September 17, 2001, 04:26:00 AM
Knowing that it is being utilized because of washouts by the river makes it a little more digestable, but if there was one fault, it would have to be that.
Post by: John_Conley on September 17, 2001, 04:58:00 AM
Seriously, I'll be teeing it up at Lehigh for certain (assuming they let me) when in the area - although I can't imagine when that'd be. It will become the answer to Ran's other question: Which courses has this site steered you to?
Post by: BillV on September 17, 2001, 05:41:00 AM
There are not wild green contours for those that demand them. There are a few wild putts, but generally you really really need to know how to read greens.
A pond is sadly lacking. No place to put a fountain.
It is hard on the pro shop staff as it is hard to lose a ball at Lehigh. It is also difficult to hit OB.
The membership has sticks in the muds, ignorant of the courses greatness? None I've yet met.
Just let me know if you want to tee it up. A pleasant time is guaranteed for all. But I won't ride in a cart. You'll drive and I'll walk if no caddies are available. 
Notes:
#5 is a better hole than Ran remembers. Tom Doak's favorite green complex as I remember.
The grass bunkers on #11 and 13? It is a maintenance issue, I only object to their hard edges. Softer edges would fit in even better.
Post by: APBernstein on September 17, 2001, 05:44:00 AM
Knowing the origins of the grass bunkers, we are both a little more respectful of their existence. However, that is not to say that they could not be improved stopping short of their complete removal.
For my tastes, the edges of these grass bunkers are a little too sharp. Without seeing this idea actually on the ground, I'm not sure how it would work, but: what if they gradually fed them into the green surrounds and mowed them to fairway heighth. Once again, maybe it would look a but out of character for the course, but I think the overall would be much improved.
Only an idea.
All the best,
Post by: GeoffreyC on September 17, 2001, 06:38:00 AM
I also didn't care for the 11th very much. The layup 2nd shot down that steep rough covered hill to a small area in front of the pond wann't that inspiring to me.
Ran- you asked for weaknesses so those are the ones I see. The strengths are well documented here on GCA so no need for me to repeat them.
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on September 17, 2001, 07:34:00 AM
You pose a good question.
Could it be that there are so many good courses in the Metropolitan New York and Philadelphia areas that being a little remote, Lehigh gets unnoticed or pushed aside.
The walk from # 1 green to # 2 tee might start raters off on the wrong foot.
Perhaps the overabundance of flower beds and plantings around tees is not well received by the raters.
The hilly nature may negetively affect "out of shape" raters.
Due to the length of today's player, perhaps distance plays a part.
I agree with Tommy N, in that I would rather see # 11 green surrounded with sand not grass bunkers. If the money is there to plant and maintain all those flower beds and plantings, the money should be there to refill or regroom the sand bunkers after a flood.
Some trees need to be trimmed or removed.
But, I go back to the remote aspect, If Lehigh was closer to NYC or PHIl, I think it would be given a higher ranking.
It's a very good course, and enjoyable to play day in and day out. It should be ranked higher.
But, that's just my opinion.
Post by: Mark_Fine on September 17, 2001, 12:14:00 PM
I personally feel "exposure" or lack there of is Lehigh's biggest weakness. Anyone with an eye for what makes a great golf course that has seen Lehigh has had little to complain about. You guys are perfect examples. Problem has been that not enough people like yourselves have come to play it. Furthermore, like most great courses, they have to be studied to really understand just how good they are. Someone who doesn't have as keen an eye as all of you will miss many of the subtle features that distinguish it from the rest.
Mark
Post by: George Pazin on September 17, 2001, 02:29:00 PM
The only thing that would be curious to know would be if the bunkers played tougher in the good old days. Being a mid handicapper, I generally struggle with bunker play, but I didn't have too much trouble with them, & I was in a bunch. Maybe the damp conditions helped me on this issue.
I didn't think of #3 as a drop shotter at all, just a tough long par 3. There is no way I would get rid of the other "drop shot" par 3, #7 - far & away the best "drop shot" par 3 I've ever played(though I haven't played that many - sorry Matt Ward ).
For a course that didn't seem too tough, when I added up my score at the end, it was tougher than I realized. Played Inniscrone to my handicap, but not Lehigh.
Can't wait to tee it up sometime with Bill V & Matt Ward & see what real length is!
Post by: BillV on September 17, 2001, 02:56:00 PM
#3 is a long hard par 3, not a drop shot.
The only hole I really think has weaknesses is the high handicapper playing #11. It can require 5 or more reasonably good shots for such a player to reach the green. It is great fun for a very good player. (Comments from Mark coming! )
Hit, lay-up#1, lay-up #2. lay-up #3, etc
Post by: GeoffreyC on September 17, 2001, 04:37:00 PM
I believe I hit 3-wood on 3 and 4 iron on the drop shot hole. My error. - I stand pat on #11.
Ran did ask for weaknesses and bar PV every course has some. Even PV is clearing out trees growing in on bunkers and obstructing views. I really liked Lehigh in case any one thought otherwise and believe it belongs on a top 100 list.
Post by: archie_struthers on September 17, 2001, 04:57:00 PM
Post by: Mark_Fine on September 17, 2001, 06:05:00 PM
My 6 year old son played in the two day 2-hole (8 and under club championship). The second day they played #10 and #11. On #11 he hit driver, driver, driver, then 5I over the creek. It took him five or six more shots from there to finish out the hole but that is another story
Remember his driver is probably a foot shorter than your wedge. Actually, Kevin finished second in the tournament and won his first golf trophy. He has a better swing than his father but that's not saying much. Lancaster is my second favorite Flynn in the area. Maybe Ran will comment further as he played there right after playing Lehigh.
Mark
Post by: TEPaul on September 18, 2001, 08:47:00 AM
Lehigh is a real sleeper--no doubt about it! I too have become super fascinated by the course in the last year or two.
Because Lehigh has not gotten the recognition it deserves in the rankings I guess it's natural that people would look for weaknesses in the course.
Maybe there are a few small weaknesses in Lehigh but I think it's important not to try to make the course into something it isn't and probably was never meant to be. I really don't think Lehigh is or was supposed to be a big full-blown championship golf course of the type of Shinnecock or even the complicated and unique architecture of Huntingdon Valley with it's demanding topogrophy and ever-present thin-margin danger making the latter a "championship" course in a scoring sense.
Lehigh, to me, is a really solid members' course, for probably every level of player period, and should be respected and ranked as such.
Lehigh is proof, again, that Flynn was probably the most clever and inventive course router in the history of the game! Flynn seem better able to "roll around" the sites of the projects he took on and deal with the topographical constraints architects' generally face, and make those constraints more interesting for golf than any other!
Flynn "butted into" hillsides and such more inventively for golf than any other architect I've ever seen. He designed holes as well as any other I've ever seen on sideslopes too! At least three holes on Lehigh use dropped elevations as well as any other architect! Flynn seems somehow to pull off radicalness without being too radical somehow. It might be instructive for us architecture addicts to remember and to truly understand that Flynn himself was a pretty "radical" guy (sort of a daredevil) and certainly that showed in his architectural expression!
As true as that may be to someone like me, it's extra interesting to observe the subtle and simple architectural brilliance of some of his other holes at Lehigh. For vastly differing reasons I would put these holes into that subtly brilliant category with exclamation marks; #1!, #2!!, #5!!!, #10!!!!, #15!!!! Most of the others holes have already spoken for themselves in their drama and uniqueness (not subtle)!
Other than his "rolling around on the site" routing brilliance just mentioned, I personally, give his routing style a thumbs up for its variety and balance and the uniqueness of his "outside/inside" routing style in such evidence at Lehigh and certainly Huntingdon Valley and to a large degree Manufacturers and Lancaster too!
As most people notice, and Pat Mucci mentioned, the seemingly inconvenient walk from #1 green to #2 tee may be a bit of an architectural glitch. But is it? Not really! It is Flynn's one-time technique (if you think carefully about Lehigh's routing) of getting the entire front nine outside the entire back nine!!
But if you ask me what Lehigh's weaknesses are, I would say its par 5s! But probably not for the reasons you would think. It's important to note that Lehigh is a par 70 and its two par 5s are short "go/no go" par 5s, and very good ones! Most of the truly difficult (to score on) par 70s have par 5s (generally two) where it's not easy to make a par (ex. Pine Vally and Merion).
As Mark Fine said, in answer to my questions about Lehigh's two par 5s, that if you try to gamble with either too much you might run into trouble, but I really do maintain that if you don't try to gamble on these two par 5s they are basically two very simple holes to make par on! That to me in the only weakness the course has--but in the broad scheme of things (all the other varied and good holes) probaby a very small weakness at that!
To answer some other remarks on this thread, I also think that the look of the grass bunkering on #11 is dynamite! It gives the green complex from the fairway way above it a "shadowy" and undefined look which is wholly unique. The grass grass bunkering is also highly functional, particularly when you consider the river-side site of #11 green.
The two par 5s may be small points and probaby shouldn't really be considered weaknesses, unless you are thinking of some touring pro who would likely make mince meat out of the course. But, so what?
Post by: Mark_Fine on September 18, 2001, 05:45:00 PM
Nice post. Couldn't agree more about the 100 yard walk down the hill from #1 green to #2 tee.
Regarding par fives, first comment I'll make is how many of the great courses have "great" par fives whether they are par 70, 71 or whatever? Think about it! Most have at least one or more marginal ones. I could run through a long list if you want me to?
Actually I agree in principle with your comment that the two par fives at Lehigh (should be) easy pars. But you know what, they are not as easy as you would think! Just try to make par and not birdie or eagle you'll make more sixes than you'd imagine. Those two bunkers that pinch in the layup area on #6 add a lot of anxiety to second shots. And the layup on #11 as well as the third shot in are no gimmies.
The beauty of those two holes is that they tempt the golfer to play for eagle. Few decent golfers approach those holes thinking "let me just play for a par". But at the same time they are still very playable for most golfers and can yield a birdie for the average player who doesn't have the distance to go for the green in two.
I do believe they are both excellent holes. The green complex on #7 is so simple yet shear genius (most of Lehigh's greens are so simple yet so complex). And #11 is my favorite hole on the course. More pivitol things happen on that hole than any other during the course of a tournament. Ask Ran how much fun it is hitting the shot he hit the day we played?
Again, Lehigh is missing exposure more than anything!
Mark
Post by: TEPaul on September 19, 2001, 01:52:00 AM
I do see your point to a degree about the fives at Lehigh. You certainly have played them more than me and I guess I should take your word about them on that.
But I feel that most really great courses's that have two par 5s have the kind that are sometimes hard to make par on and very hard to make birdie on! Probably unfortunately that usually entails some real length.
When a course gets into three par 5s or four or more then it's a good opportunity to make one or some of them short and tricky somehow!
I recognize that #6 Lehigh is quite tricky and that front tongue with a pin there is a total sucker pin. I would probably just try to get behind it (for obvious reasons) and putt back which is what I did on purpose last time and sunk the putt after hitting my first approach about half fat!
Post by: BillV on September 19, 2001, 03:19:00 AM
I won't comment on #11 except to say it's not as easy a par as 6.
Post by: ted janeczek on September 19, 2001, 09:44:00 AM
Post by: archie on September 19, 2001, 04:40:00 PM
You echo my sentiments. Love both courses but its probably not a coin flip, Lancaster has a slight edge. Given their proximity, it probably pushes Lehigh back (in raters eyes) to the next tier.
Post by: H. Toomey on September 19, 2001, 04:43:00 PM
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on September 19, 2001, 04:53:00 PM
I still think the remote loation is the biggest impediment to Lehigh getting more recognition. The same could be said of Lancaster.
What's you schdule on 10-11-01 ?
Post by: Mark_Fine on September 19, 2001, 05:37:00 PM
Should be in town on the 11th but my schedule is still uncertain.
Belown is a post I did a while back on Lancaster vs. Lehigh. I love both courses and you have to nit pick to find complaints about either one.
---
Flynn did Lancaster in I believe 1920 while Lehigh was 1927. Both properties are on hilly terrain. I think the routing is good at Lancaster but it's shear genius at Lehigh. Here's my brief hole vs. hole comparison:
#1 - Both are good opening par fours. Lehigh's has more options but I'll call it a draw to start things off. All even.
#2 - Two short par fours but Lehigh's wins hands down with its hogsback fairway and numerous shot choices. Lehigh 1 up.
#3 - Both great holes, Lehigh's a long but thought provoking par three and Lancaster's a medium length par four from an elevated tee to reasonably generous landing area back to a blind green set on the side of a hill. Lehigh still 1 up.
#4 - Two more outstanding par fours with a stream in play off the tee. Too close to call. Lehigh still 1 up.
#5 - This time two dogleg par fours, Lancaster's goes left to a heavily sloped landing area set well above the green which is along side a water hazard. Lehigh's goes right and slightly back up hill to a narrow and innocent looking but treacherous green. Very evenly matched. Lehigh still 1 up.
#6 - Cut the tree down on the left side of Lancaster's par three and you'll dramatically improve the hole. Still Lehigh's gambling par five with two cross/framing bunkers and the narrow entrance to the green is the winner. Lehigh 2 up.
#7 - Two water holes, Lehigh's a long drop shot par three and Lancaster's a reachable par five with a pond fronting the green right and a ditch with water left. Unless you've bombed it off the tee, the ditch left forces most every player to layup. Lehigh's par three offers one of the most harrowing shots on the course, but I'll hold back and call it a draw. Lehigh still 2 up.
#8 - Two uphill holes, Lehigh's a par four and Lancaster's a par three. Both great greensites. Call it another draw. Lehigh still 2 up.
#9 - Very solid and similar length par fours to finish the front side. Another draw. Lehigh 2 up through nine.
#10 - Two outstanding par fours to start the backside. Lehigh's features a bunker perfectly placed 50 yards short of a green the runs away from you. However, #10 might be the best hole on Lancaster's course. I'll give the edge to Lancaster. Lehigh now only 1 up.
#11 - Another strong par four at Lancaster but no comparison to the risk/reward par five at Lehigh. Lehigh back to 2 up.
#12 - An modestly interesting elevated par three over water at Lancaster vs. a par four and Lehigh's most natural golf hole skirting along the Lehigh stream and base of the hillside. Lehigh goes to 3 up.
#13 - Ackward wrap around dog leg par five at Lancaster vs. Lehigh's best par three along the water. Lehigh goes 4 up.
#14 - Two good par fours. Might be Lehigh's best overall green (punchbowl green). However, we'll call it a draw and keep Lehigh 4 up.
#15 - Long dogleg right par four at Lancaster vs. short dogleg right par four at Lehigh. Both different but outstanding holes. Lehigh still 4 up.
#16 - Excellent short par four with a heavily bunkered landing area at Lancaster. Slightly downhill par three to heavily bunkered and shallow green at Lehigh. Give Lancaster the edge and call it Lehigh 3 up.
#17 - Good medium length par three at Lancaster but great par four at Lehigh. Lehigh 4 up.
#18 - Two long finishing par fours. Extremely severe false front green at Lancaster while Lehigh's is large and open in front but the surface is blind. I think Lehigh's hole is prettier and has more options but let's call it a draw. Lehigh wins 4 up.
Again, both are excellent courses and a number of holes could go either way. Much is about personal preference. Ran might want to take a crack at this since he just played both. One thing about Lehigh there is not a marginal or uninteresting hole in the 18. There are not many courses that I have played where I can say that.
Mark
Post by: ted janeczek on September 20, 2001, 06:31:00 AM
Post by: TEPaul on September 20, 2001, 06:51:00 AM
I like your Lancaster/Lehigh comparison to a large degree although I really do hate comparing two good courses in match play.
However, I would personally give the nod to Lancaster's #18 and definitely give the nod to Lehigh's #10! The latter is one of the best par 4s I've ever seen just using the natural sideslope on the drive with a dead-on perfectly placed driving bunker left and for the approach the mid-fairway bunker is the best deception I've ever seen of it's kind and can play perfectly with the slightly unusual slope of the green. It's a great natural landform for golf and Flynn did just the right architecture and just the right amount of it on that hole. The hole may not be that hard but to hit the right shots on it and to see what happens makes it one of the best I've ever seen.
Post by: Billy_F on September 20, 2001, 07:02:00 AM
Post by: ted janeczek on September 20, 2001, 07:29:00 AM
Post by: Mark_Fine on September 20, 2001, 08:32:00 PM
Like I said, it's hard to make a wrong choice among so many good holes.
Billy and Ted,
You're right, it is hard to not hold a bias and many times I am invited to play a course because a member says how good it is. I have to say, most times I come away disappointed.
I've seen a lot of good courses over the years and I try to call them like I see them. Maybe Ran will chime in as I know he likes match play and I know what his opinion is regarding the two courses. From my standpoint, both are great courses and you can't go wrong playing either one.
Mark
Post by: ted janeczek on September 20, 2001, 09:51:00 AM
Post by: Mark_Fine on September 20, 2001, 11:34:00 AM
Moselem Springs is a wonderful golf course. Most probably don't realize the course did hold a Women's U.S. Open and was ranked in the Top 100 years ago. It has some outstanding golf holes. With some touching up (restoration not renovation), it could really be good.
Mark
Post by: George Pazin on September 20, 2001, 03:30:00 PM
How about offering something more to counter Mark's argument? He took the time to try to reason things out - maybe you could enlighten us as to where you feel his enthusiasm got the better of him.
Ted -
Didn't you play Fox Chapel or Field Club about a month ago? How about some comments there, too?
In case you can't tell, I'm itching for more info!
Post by: Craig_Rokke on September 20, 2001, 04:07:00 PM
Given the courses you've played, it doesn't come as a surprise that you're sometimes slightly disappointed by other people's
"great home courses."
Also, how much of Lehigh is unadultered Flynn?
Post by: Mark_Fine on September 21, 2001, 05:33:00 AM
My standards are very high and I can be very critical about whether I like or don't like a golf course. But that doesn't mean I'm always right in my assesment. It just means I have strong opinions, can't you tell in my posts
If someone thinks their course is great then it is great and that's what is most important. I'd hate to be the one to convince them otherwise. When I first started talking about Lehigh I was somewhat guarded in my opinions. I knew how it compared to what I had played but I still felt people would think I was biased since I decided to become a member of the club. It really wasn't until I started to get some outside opinions from very respected individuals that I spoke more about it. You eventually get a bit more confident in your assesment when people like Doak write an article stating Lehigh "is better than half the prestigious Top-100 lists that ignore it"! It is a course that needs to be studied and played often to really appreciate its subleties.
Lehigh according to John Chassard is 90-95% unadulterated Flynn.
Mark
Post by: T.M. on September 22, 2001, 06:07:00 PM
Why doesn't it get the respect it deserves? Perhaps it's because of its proximity to Philly's other great Flynn designs? However, I suspect it's more due to being next door to Saucon Valley CC whose courses have from time to time appeared in different ratings. SVCC's overall atmosphere gives it the leg up, rightly or wrongly, on L.C.C.
Post by: Paul Turner on October 02, 2001, 06:40:00 AM
The terrain is severe but the charming rolls and ridges on many fairways, particularly on 2,8,10,15, add plenty of character and encourage the better player to shape tee shots that flirt with fairway bunkers.
Ran's comment about the bunker shoulders creating plenty of short game interest is dead right. I was constantly under-reading putts and the breaks were not easy to see. I wonder how much those shoulders have built up over time?
Favourite hole was probably the 10th with run up option past the central bunker. And the 2,8,15 were unusually good uphill holes. The 15th in particular with its slightly sunken green.
I haven't seen many fine parkland courses (none really of this calibre in the UK) but I have walked Ridgewood and I thought Lehigh CC was at least of comparable quality with any 18 combination there.
Post by: Matt_Ward on October 05, 2001, 08:27:00 PM
Also present were BillV, Mike Cirba and Scott Burroughs.
Lehigh CC is everything that so many people say it is. As a GD rater I have to confess ignorance about the greatness of Lehigh CC for such a long time. Even though I have played 90 of the current 100 Greatest as listed by the magazine I have to say Lehigh is a course that has plenty to offer and in my mind is a bonafide contender to join such elite company with one or two modifications.
The green complexes are some of the finest I've ever played. You MUST constantly watch where you position the ball. You MUST also have sound playing complete skills because having the skill to play one type of shot will not suffice. I will also emphasize that missing on the short side of ANY hole is a sure formula for disaster unless you have Seve type recovery skills! My chop efforts at #15 prove this point!
There are a number of outstanding holes that others have covered far better than I could describe -- but I have to say I absolutely loved Flynn's wherewithal in designing classic uphill type holes such as the 2nd, 8th and 14th. Why such holes are not being added to many modern designs today is really disturbing.
The land is clearly top notch and the routing by Flynn is superb. The lone weakness? Ran mentioned it in his original thread. The golf course lacks a few strong par-4's of serious length. Before anyone chops my head off and says I'm looking at the course only as it relates to my game I do believe extensions to the existing tees at #1 and #18 are appropriate and would not take away from Flynn's original effort. And, given the daily wind patterns, you would have to play at least one of them into a headwind as the first played yesterday!
Adding about 20-30 yards for each of these holes with a tee pad extensions would really add some muscle. I believe the greens at both holes could handle the longer approach shots that would be played. Lehigh has probably some of the finest array of medium length par-4's I've played in quite some time. The course is strong in this regard and the greens do not suffer fools at anytime. Bump on a few more yards at the holes I've mentioned and you have a course that minus Oakmont and Merion / East, in my mind, has the merits to make a serious claim for the 3rd best course in the Keystone State. In my mind it is no less than 6-7 now!
How Golf Digest failed to list Lehigh CC among the top 25 courses in PA today is an absolute oversight that borders on outright stupidity given some of the names listed ahead of it. Any person who truly loves golf and classic design had best put Lehigh on your "to do" list.
It's that good and should not be missed. On the Doak scale I'd give it a solid 7.5 and if the par-4's I've mentioned could be somewhat lengthened I'd go even higher to an 8.
Regards,
mw
Post by: BillV on October 05, 2001, 09:47:00 AM
Sorry I was feeling like a warmed over dead dog yesterday and not up to a more spirited discussion. Glad that you liked 15, I call it the hardest par on the course. Geoff Childs hit into the right bunker once and I told him that par was 4 from that point and he scoffed before picking it up after 3-4 more strokes! Of note, I got up and down from that bunker for par yesterday for the first time in recent memory. 369 is plenty enough for #15.
Of note, there have been several back tees added and removed at Lehigh and the last was a back tee on the 13th, which you'll probably agree it doesn't need.
I think the green complexes at Lehigh are apropos the discussion of the short/mid length par 4 thread, it really all depends on the strategy inherent. I think the concept of using every club in the bag is over-rated and Lehigh an example. Interestingly, 1 and 18 are probably hte least contoured greens on the course, but they don't yield a flock of birdies.
So go figure.
Post by: Paul Turner on October 05, 2001, 09:57:00 AM
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on October 05, 2001, 10:06:00 AM
The present course provides for an enjoyable, yet challenging test, day in and day out. A fun, sporty track that you'll never get tired of. Who could ask for anything more ?
Post by: Mark_Fine on October 05, 2001, 11:02:00 AM
Leigh Taylor is a regular at many of the Philly courses (he was involved with the development of Inniscrone) and now can't believe he never made the short drive to Allentown. He was sold on the course after only three holes!
It was also a pleasure to see Mike Cirba again and meet Scott Burroughs. I know Mike loves to play here and I think Scott came away quite impressed.
I'm glad everyone had a good day (though it's hard not to anytime you are playing golf).
Mark
Post by: BillV on October 05, 2001, 11:12:00 AM
Thanks for your kind comments on Lehigh, but I in no way support any lengthening of Lehigh CC. It doesn't need it, and i don't think it would improve it. Any course will yield low scores to superior golf. If your game is ragged at Lehigh, your score will suffer but you won't. Feeling lousy, I played like a dog yesterday playing less than my best, but lost no balls. Very important test of a golf course.
Post by: Matt_Ward on October 05, 2001, 02:34:00 PM
I would be most interested in getting the viewpoints of people most familiar with golf in the Keystone State. I've played a good bit and say the course should be about 6-7 ranked. How do others feel?
P.S. My suggestion for added length at #1 and #18 is just a personal viewpoint and is in no way a defect of this gem Flynn design. I just think a few added yards would only add to its already stellar reputation. Just a humble opinion.
BillV & Mark Fine: Next time I play #15 I'll be watching my approach shot more carefully. Superb short par-4! They should call th eleft side bunker"coffin" because once you go in your likely to be buried right there!!! Also, loved the drive and approach to #17.
I also find it hard to believe the course is not sloped and course rated a bit higher than it is actually is. A total of less than 130 from the back tees seems a bit light given the terrain and severity of the greens. I'd appreciate any comments.
Thanks ...
Post by: Mark_Fine on October 05, 2001, 06:36:00 PM
I've played every course but one or two on GD's past few PA state lists. I'd be curious to hear what courses you would rate higher. PA has four courses that GD has in the Top 100 and I give Lehigh the edge over two of those.
Mark
Post by: Tommy_Naccarato on October 05, 2001, 06:58:00 PM
Post by: Mike_Cirba on October 05, 2001, 07:17:00 PM
8:00 am at Donald Ross's Lulu Country Club with Steve Sayers and Scott Burroughs as the lead-off group of the day. I brought my Z-game, but had a lot of interesting discussion and great camaraderie nonetheless. Steve is actively assisting the club in putting together a complete restoration plan that is being conceived by Ron Forse. I'd love to see some others like Ed Baker contact Steve to provide helpful hints as to how best to approach intra-club dynamics. The basic guts of the course there are way too good to leave it as tree-overgrown as it is presently. The club has some fabulous old aerials that should help to make the case.
1:10 at Lehigh playing again with long-hitting Scott who defies the laws of physics with his choked-down grip. Our host was the inimitable Dr. BillV, who was gracious as ever despite feeling down with a GI bug. Afterwards, some jovial discussion with Mark, Matt, Leigh, Bill, Bill, & Scott followed on the patio, where we solved all the golf problems of the world in short order. Lehigh's stellar superintendent John Chassard graciously joined us for three holes, complementing the day.
It was great to see everyone yesterday, particularly on such fine classic courses. Thanks to everyone for their wonderful company. Golf is truly a game like no other.
Post by: BillV on October 06, 2001, 04:08:00 AM
Interesting comment about rating/slope as Paul Turner had exactly the same comments to me a week before on our round. JohnV has played the course and has been an Oregon Slope/Rating team member for years and I don't remember him having any negative comments about the numbers. Maybe if his computer is now hooked up in Santa Cruz he can comment.
I have found that courses that require more of your short game tend to be viewed in the way Matt described. Courses with more emphasis on length and lost ball hazards have higher slope numbers. It is not easy to lose a ball at Lehigh. OB rarely in play and only the one small river.
Post by: Mark_Fine on October 06, 2001, 04:57:00 AM
Good question. The course is not perfect and I don't give it a 9 or 10 so it has issues. I've said before, I put it in the 7.5 to 8 range. The one thing that is happening at Lehigh that will definitely move it to an 8 is the expansion of the fairways. Many of the detached bunkers will now have fairway up to and around them like on #1 and #18 just to mention two. The strategy on those holes will definitely be improved. So that is one weakness that will be solved in time without "modifying" the actual design.
Although John has done an outstanding job with the trees (you never feel claustrophobic on the course), there are a few here and there that should be removed. The willow right of the stream on #4 will eventually come out, the old birch tree just past the fairway bunker on #8 will eventually come out and a few others. In general though, most parkland courses could learn from the way Lehigh has managed their trees!
Firmness of the turf is another issue. Again John does a great job but has many members pushing for soft and lush green conditions. When Lehigh is a little rough around the edges and has dried out, the course is the most fun to play. When we had that drought last year, I was out there as often as possible!
A lot comes down to personal preference. I'll can't imagine ever giving the course a 9 or 10, it doesn't deserve that compared to all the courses I have seen. For the severness of the site, I think Flynn got every bit out of the property that any architect could have. Some properties will only yield so much no matter how brilliant the design might be. I think an 8 is the best anyone could have done!
Maybe I'm too hard, maybe I'm too soft, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking with it
Mark
Post by: Tommy_Naccarato on October 06, 2001, 05:43:00 AM
Never are you too soft!
Mike Cirba-you really know how to make a guy hurt 3000 miles away!
For those of you that haven't been to Lehigh, John's seemingly tireless efforts to get this course play as if it was in 1927 are worthy of a ten gun GCA salute. (Ran, fire up them guns!)
As noted in Mike Cirba's post on #8, I specifically just got up on my one sleep-in day to comment again on the 11th and 13th grass bunkers which, as you, John, Bill and I have talked about in the past, just don't seem to fit and they are more specifically the only downside to a perfectly classic golf design and the efforts to make it play as such.
Now my question that so ruthlessly disturbed my beauty sleep!
How many times has the Little Lehigh River risen since these grass bunkers were instituted?
(For those of you that don't know, the LLR would rise certain times of the year and wash out the orignal sand bunkers.)
Also, a question for John Chassard or Ron Forse:
Was the original green at the 11th raised in an effort to get it out of the rising waters?
And finally! (Whew!)
Kudos to Ron Forse for such an excellent job of restoration!
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on October 06, 2001, 06:12:00 AM
I felt the same way about the grass bunkers,
that they were a weak compromise in the name of an occassional maintainance problem.
If Lehigh would get rid of all the flower and shrub beds that abundantly surround every tee, take the maintainance money saved, and use it to fund repair and restoration of those bunkers every time the stream/river overflows its banks and damages the bunkers, they'd still have plenty left over to embark on other projects or practices.
BillV,
I never advocated lengthening Lehigh,
I liked the course the way it is, but wouldn't object slight additions here or there.
Mark and Bill,
Was the 8th tee always in its current configuration, or was it more flush with the surrounding terrain ?
I think your Green Superintendent is terrific, understands golf extremely well, and like many, has an uphill battle against elements within the membership that want lush, green, conditions.
Post by: BillV on October 06, 2001, 07:25:00 AM
LCC is a CC, not a GC, the flower beds are unfortunately unlikely to go just as it will be too soft and mushy at times.
The original original 8th tee was built up slightly, but was down at the river's edge back in the 20's and 30's at least. There is an aerial of the course from the early 40's or so in the manager's office that shows it well (in a display accompanying the first ace of #7) but I am certain that it proved unsafe with pushed tee shots off #7 as the trees over there get quite a workout as it is. I will double check when I am there next, but I believe that it shows the early fairway bunker very well, and I will try to digitize it on my Mavica and send it to Tommy for all to see. As you may recall it is quite a hill to butt against and it is handled well already at 14, so removing that challenge still left one similar on the course.
Also, hats off to John Chassard, our super who is absolutely first rate and has helped out other local guys at critical times, he is one of the best, a good player and a real solid citizen, too.
Post by: Matt_Ward on October 06, 2001, 09:45:00 AM
If I had to chart course rating and slope for Lehigh CC from the tips I'd venture the following given the terrain, dimensions and contours of the greens and overall shot values called for with the following numbers:
*No less than 73.0 Course Rating
*No less than 132 Slope
Mark Fine:
Good question you posed to me. Mark, I think the state rankings as put forward by GD is so completely distorted to be beyond any comprehension. I thought New Jersey was bad but the Keystone State is out in LA LA LAND!
I've seen just about everything that is well worth playing in Pennsy (now that I have played Lehigh), and, as I said previously, I would opt for Lehigh for #3 in the state if two of the par-4's could be stretched -- specifically #1 and #18. Adding 20-30 yards to each would not take away anything but really add something to a course that has just about everything you could want except for a long par-4 challenge, in my opinion.
On a related post talking about longish par-4's, I stated, and I still believe it strongly, that no superior course can be without having at least two or three holes that are at or beyond 450 yards or more. Merion / East has the 5th, 16th and 18th, to name just three and it still is about 6,700 yards, I believe, from the new tips. Pac Dunes, has no less than a few such holes (i.e. 4th, 7th, 13th), and is slightly more than 6,600 yards from the max back.
Lehigh CC has some of the best mid par-4's I've seen. They constantly offer a dizzying variety of challenges in terms of quality shotmaking and grade changes in terrain and smart bunkering. But, I believe the design lacks having some long par-4's that test real firepower off the tee and with the long iron / wood approach. Think of how Shinnecock challenges you with a variety of holes but Flyn''s design has such holes in #6, #9, #12, #14 and #18. What a fivesome of superior long holes that go in such different directions and offer such varied terrain in their overall play!!!
If the 8th hole used to play 440-yards I'd love to see that return to being even though the odds are practically nill!
My Doak grade of 7.5 is based on what Lehigh is. Having the long par-4 element would solidify, in my mind, the total picture of shot offerings and easily boost the course to a 8 number rating.
As I said on a previous post, lengthening the 1st and 18th would be ideal because the land is available, the dimensions of the green could handle the added approach distance and since the wind pattern is different for each hole you are guaranteed that one of them will be into a headwind -- quite likely the 1st. In addition, the saddle on the 18th would propel tee shots for nearly all players even if the hole were 30 yards longer.
Lehigh has wonderful holes but the course relies overwhelmingly so on placement -- not power. Too much emphasis is placed through an array of mid-length / par-4's - many of which are marvelously designed. In my mind you have to have layouts with design balance and the par-4's are the backbone of any course since there are so many of them in any design. Adding distance to just two holes would up the ante in forcing players out of their comfort zone and have to put a little extra in their tee shot. And, best of all, since they come either early or late in the round the golfer knows that just "bumping" the ball 230 yards off the tee will not guarantee him a soft approach.
Mark, your last question about other courses that I think should be rated higher in the overall state rankings include two of which are not even listed in the latest GD assessment and one which is rated too low.
They are:
Nemacolin Woodlands / Mystic Course
Farmington, PA
6,832 yards / CR - 75 / Sl - 146
Top notch Pete Dye design on a great site and full of varying challenges. How this course is not even rated in the top 25 is an absolute oversight! I'd put it ahead among the best 5 courses I've played in PA.
Quicksilver
Midway, PA
7,120 yards / CR - 75.7 / Sl - 145
The original owner, Bob Murphy, a member at Oakmont, wanted to mirror many of the elements at his club and the design here is really solid. The greens require a delicate touch and the player had best be able to hit drives that require adequate distance and precision. To be fair, I have not played the course in quite some time and I from what I have been told Murphy is no longer connected to the site. I loved the course but a return would really indicate if such a lofty position in the top ten is still deserved.
I really loved Stonewall and feel it should be among the state' best -- how it's rated at #17 is beyond me! I also would have Inniscrone as a sleeper choice and just outside the top ten along with Nevillewood, the Nicklaus design otuside of Pittsburgh which I liked, Fox Chapel and Lancaster (Meadow Creek & Dogwood).
I don't believe any of the courses at Saucon Valley deserve such high treatment within the state. I really do like Huntsville near Wilkes-Baare and I think Rees Jones did a wonderful job. My only reservation is that in the 3-4 times I've played it the turf has always been soft.
I like Laurel Valley and Aronimink but they don't possess any real character found in Lehigh and are one dimensional courses where length is really more of the equation. I'd like to return to Aronimink to see what has happened to the design -- it's been about 7 years since I last saw the course and I understand key changes have been made so I reserve judgement until I see it.
In Pennsy my top ten would be:
1). Oakmont
2). Merion / East
3). Lehigh CC (if two par-4's could be lengthened) if not then Huntsville
4). Nemacolin Woodlands
5). Stonewall
6). Lehigh CC (as is with no changes)
7). Aronimink
8). Huntingdon Valley
9). Quicksilver (need return visit to see it again)
10). Laurel Valley
*Sleepers include Nevillewood, Inniscrone, Fox Chapel and Lancaster.
Post by: Craig Disher on October 06, 2001, 02:16:00 PM
Mark - the pictures I posted on the other thread were of Manor's #13. If it looked like LCC's, I'd really be surprised.
Post by: Mark_Fine on October 06, 2001, 03:20:00 PM
Your list looks pretty good (though mine is somewhat different) and some of it again comes down to personal preference and definition of greatness. For example, I'm not as high on Mystic and Quicksilver as you are. I would classify them in the category I call - "great tests of golf but not necessarily great golf courses". We can discuss what I mean by that over a few beers sometime.
Can't argue with you too much on the long par four issue at Lehigh (remember though that #18 is already 445 yards and a very strong finish. If you hit it 300 off the tee you better hit it properly or you will not make par. There is usually more of a crosswind there which makes the drive even tougher. Moreover, that right side of the green is very very tough to find even with a perfectly placed tee shot. Some of the other longer par fours are 419, 415, 427, 410 and 416 but clearly there are no 480 yarders.
At the end of the day though you are absolutely correct about GD's state lists. Most of them are a mess! Other than maybe the top few courses, I think the main value they serve is to at least identify some of the better courses in the state to play, but just forget about the order they are in!
Gotta run!
Mark
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on October 06, 2001, 04:09:00 PM
Some of the holes you mention at Shinnecock were much shorter when Flynn designed them, and had new, longer tees added in specific preparation for the US OPEN.
You also have to understand the strong prevailing winds at Shinnecock which Lehign doesn't get, and discount length on holes
# 2, 3, and 12.
BillV,
Lehigh's topography makes it difficult to extract its feel through photos, one really needs to play it to understand and appreciate it.
I can see your point on errant shots on # 7 creating a hot zone on a tee down by the river, but, it would seem to have been a better hole from there, certainly putting more demand on the tee shot, and perhaps fulfilling Matt's criteria re length.
Post by: Matt_Ward on October 06, 2001, 04:59:00 PM
You proved my point in mentioning how the forces that be lengthened the holes in question at Shinnecock. By doing that they simply increased the challenge to an otherwise superb course and made it even more so -- particularly for the top player.
I think doing the same at Lehigh (holes #1 and #18, maybe #8(?) would be following the same formula.
You know when I say you add additional tee boxes the likelihood is that these tees will be more for that rare day when the course is played to its maximum. In nearly all other cases, people will just look at them and hurry to the forward tee positions they usually play.
When you really size up what I'm saying is that par-4's need to have design balance. I'm not advocating absurd distances be added but Lehigh is a bit short on having well balanced par-4 holes that compliment each other. I believe what I am suggesting would provide that balance without carrying it beyond reason and prudence. I completely concurn with nearly all who have posted how marvleous the Flynn design is and how underrated the course has been for too long.
Just a humble opinion, but as you say Pat, I could be wrong.
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on October 06, 2001, 05:37:00 PM
I don't recall there being that much room on
# 18 to push a hole back, and while there is the room at # 1, that would sure make for a difficult, even non-forgiving first hole.
Since this is a "members" course, a sporty one at that, I think lengthening # 1 would be counter productive.
On # 8 it's hard to argue with the original tee location back by the river.
Post by: Mike_Cirba on October 06, 2001, 07:15:00 PM
LOVED your pictures of Manor, a fun old Alex Findlay design with lots of Flynn additions. Are you from the area?
Matt Ward,
Man, when we agree, we agree totally (i.e. Twisted Dune, Lehigh, Plainfield)! When we don't we really don't. Personally, I think Mystic Rock at Nemacolin Woodlands falls into the category of courses that should never have been built given the extreme topography and rocky (bouldery is a better term) soil. While there are a handful of visually spectacular holes, as well as lots of tough ones, I was sorely disappointed in Pete's use of severe man made features on an already brutal site that just took everything right over the edge. An on land like Mystic, was built on, that fall from the edge is a long, long way down.
Post by: Craig_Rokke on October 06, 2001, 07:32:00 PM
man-made hill of a teeing area that really
looks out of place on the course?
Getting back to Flynn/Lehigh....was there
any architect in Flynn's era (or any other)that you'd rather have dealing with routing and shaping a difficult mountainous or hilly site?
Matt's PA ranking is definitely not in lock-step with many other's. Unfortunately, I've only played a couple of those courses, so I'm
not in a position to critique it.
Post by: Scott_Burroughs on October 07, 2001, 08:51:00 AM
As others hinted, I loved the course and noted that I probably gave it the nod over Huntingdon Valley. I also think a head-to-head match play rating between both courses would be interesting.
It was fun to finally meet so many GCAers in person. Last week I met Fred Ruttenberg, Dick Sayer, Linc Roden (what a wealth of historical golf information!), Steve Sayers (SriBungaRaya), Mike Cirba, Bill Vostinak, Matt Ward, and Mark Fine (who's played more courses than even Matt Ward).
Bill, I also mentioned that I thought the course should be rated/sloped higher. The same goes for LuLu.
I also felt the grass bunkers on #11 should have sand in them.
I always seem to boggle other people's minds when I hit the ball fairly long as much as I choke down and as slender (okay, skinny) as I am. Especially since I have the forearms of Olive Oyl.
Other thoughts:
The hogback (we're talking one big hog) in the middle of #2 fairway is magically invisible from the tee, despite being right in front of you. I felt it was best (after I played it) to try to fly it to take out any wicked bounces to the sides it would otherwise do if hitting a long iron off the tee.
Number 8 is the longest 381 yard par 4 I've ever seen.
Number 17 reminds me a lot of #4 at Deerfield (F.K.A. Louviers at DuPont CC), and Mike C. agrees.
I wish I had more vacation days.
Post by: Craig Disher on October 07, 2001, 06:01:00 AM
Egads. Alex Findlay? Where did you find this bit of information? Please email me at cdisher@erols.com.
I've lived in the DC area for many years and have played at Manor for about 10.
Post by: Mike_Cirba on October 07, 2001, 06:03:00 AM
Egads, back! Wrong Manor CC!
The one I'm referring to is near Reading, PA. Oops...
Post by: Matt_Ward on October 07, 2001, 10:14:00 AM
Mike, appreciate your take on my elevation of the Mystic Course at Nemacolin Woodlands. I have a great like for Pete Dye and see this course as being something out of the ordinary for the Keystone State. Mike, we do agree on plenty of items -- probably in excess of 80% -- that's not too bad!
The other top PA courses I mentioned in my top ten listing are old classic designs (I count Laurel Valley in the classic column, but could be wrong!) with the exception of Quicksilver, which I would like to see once again before confirming its placement. Can you tell me what modern designs you might have in your top ten or are they all classic designs from years ago? Or better yet -- what is your top ten? Do you agree with me that if Lehigh could lengthen 2-3 holes (either #1, #8 or #18) you would have a magnificient balancing act of superb par-4's without being dependent upon mid-length par-4's as it is today? I think just these small additions would easily push the course to #3 in the state.
Now back to Mystic. Is the site severe? Yes, no doubt! But there are quite a few strong holes that make you play. Think of how the 1st hole plays and then jump ahead to unique challenge of the 2nd! What about the finishing holes? I think sometimes what happens is that there are people who tilt towards classic designs in nearly all of their preferences. I opt to include some modern designs that I believe have plenty to offer. I also like Nevillewood that Jack Nicklaus did but I hesitate to include it in the top ten because Pennsy has a number of second tier courses that are fairly close to each other in overall quality.
But, I also believe the GD state listing for PA is geared towards an over reliance on classic designs, some of which get by simply because others that are new have not really been looked at closely (i.e. Glenmaura National, Wyncote, etc.) Mystic is a demanding course that is not a zillion yards in length. From the tips it's just over 6,800 yards, but it will not yield to anything but consistent and fine shotmaking. I see the course as being vastly underrated in the state because it is isolated 70 miles southeast of Pittsburgh. In some ways the isolation of Mystic is no less the same issue that effects Lehigh CC.
Pat Mucci:
I looked quite closely behind the tee at #18 -- I believe there is room for additional yardage if the course opted to do so. Ditto the 1st. Having an optional back tee at the 8th would also be a real plus.
Pat, when you say "member's course" I'm scratching my head and wondering what private course isn't a "member's course." Baltusrol is one -- so is GCGC, Winged Foot, etc, etc. The changes I'm talking about are nothing more than a maximum of 100 additional yards at the VERY MOST! Lehigh would still be under 6,700 yards! I'm not advocating by any means that Lehigh be turned into the Monster at The Concord!
The members can still play the course they routinely play. What I'm suggesting is a small deviation that has been done at other classic courses (to wit Shinnecock Hills, another Flynn effort!). The option to extend the lengths on these par-4's would give the club an array of par-4's that are truly comprehensive in their scope and playing characteristics.
Scott Burroughs:
Your comments are well thought out especially the 2nd hole -- a superb short par-4 that oozes real character and strategic implications!!! Why architects can't design really solid uphill holes is hartd to imagine. They should visit Lehigh to see how it can be done. Last question --did you have the opportunity to visit Twisted Dune?
Regards,
Post by: Paul Turner on October 07, 2001, 10:25:00 AM
Post by: Matt_Ward on October 07, 2001, 11:08:00 AM
Do you object to long par-4's (450 yards or more) as being all "slogs?"
I concede having the 8th playing uphill is difficult but Lehigh CC needs, in my opinion, at least 2 long par-4's. If not the 8th -- what about the 1st and 18th?
Post by: Paul Turner on October 07, 2001, 11:34:00 AM
No, I don't regard all 450 yd par 4s as a slog but the 8th at Lehigh must already play the equivalent of a 420 yd flat hole. I was amazed at how steep that tee shot is, it doesn't feel that steep when you tee off, but when you turn around and look back down the fairway towards the 7th green!!
If the tee was further down, I just see the tee shot as less appealing, it would become too steep and a slog in my mind. Particularly as the approach would also become steeper.
Lengthening the 18th would be OK, as I think the fairway contours would play correctly. Although you might end up with a lot of hanging lies in soft conditions, if it was pushed too far back
I thought the 1st was fine and if the tee was taken further back wouldn't the fairway bunker be less tempting?
Post by: Matt_Ward on October 07, 2001, 11:53:00 AM
Trust me -- long hitters could still hit the 1st fairway bunker even if the hole were pushed back 20 yards.
#18 is fair game because the usual prevailing wind is behind you on most days from what I have been told.
Post by: Mark_Fine on October 07, 2001, 12:12:00 PM
Pat,
You talk about the flower beds quite a bit and I understand where you are coming from. I think you did heard John say he prefers them around the clubhouse and not out on the course, but he gets pressure from the members.
This all goes back to a number of years ago when Tom Weiskopf visited Lehigh. He is quoted as describing Lehigh as a "scaled down Augusta National" in part due to the beautiful vistas, the mature trees, the elevation changes in the terrain, and the difficulty of the putting surfaces. Many members remember those comments and I think this is part of the issue John faces. Again, all in all he does an outstanding job!!
Post by: Craig_Rokke on October 07, 2001, 02:15:00 PM
Since you brought it up...Manor GC
outside of Reading is one of the few publics west in the western Phila suburbs I haven't played. Is it worth a trip to see Messrs. Findlay and Flynn's handiwork?
Matt-Did Murphy design Quicksilver?
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on October 07, 2001, 03:24:00 PM
I think Baltusrol and Winged Foot are a far cry from being "Members" courses.
They forfeit their facilities to outside influences to host major tournaments at the expense of the daily needs and requirements of their dues paying members. They hold themselves out to the viewing public as venues providing Major competitions for the best players in the world, the touring pros, not the everyday play of the members. And, as a result of this National display, they offer their facility, on a continuing basis to Outside corporate or charitable outings, to the dismay and inconvenience of the dues paying members and maintainance schedule of the golf course. And, in that regard, Lehigh is a members club, while the others are unique golfing Entities unto themselves.
Mark Fine,
You know that I think very highly of John, and feel that all those flower and shrub beds are a drain on his budget and manpower.
Without bringing attention to, and criticizing a club for prattices that may be detrimental to the upkeep of the golf course, things will never change.
You know that I was quite candid at lunch when John and I spoke in depth about these issues, The real challenge it to convince the membership to devote their budget dollars to golf pursuits to the exclusion of non-golf items, and that is why I tried to discourage you from pursuing Audabon, etc. etc.
Tom Weiskopf was blessed with a great talent and swing, and as a guest of a club, I would imagine that EVEN Terrible Tom was looking to say as many nice things about Lehigh as possible.
But, arbor committees, beautification commmittees, and garden committees have not enhanced golf course/architectual values nearly as much as they have hurt/impeded them over the last forty (40) years.
As we know from experience, Augusta Green, laced with multi-colored flowers
in the early spring in Georgia, may not be the prefered LOOK for Lehigh, in Pennsylvania throughout the summer months.
Good luck to you, Bill V and John in your continuing efforts to improve Lehigh !
Lehigh is a great GOLF, repeat, GOLF course.
Post by: Mark_Fine on October 07, 2001, 03:59:00 PM
Trust me, we're on the same page. I am still not on the Grounds Committee I think because they feel I'll want the place firm, fast and not so green and I'll strongly push for much of what you are talking about.
Mark
Post by: Matt_Ward on October 07, 2001, 05:04:00 PM
I believe Murphy did design Quicksilver with the help of the pro at the time -- Sean Parees. That's my understanding but if someone knows for sure I'd be most interested.
Pat:
I stand corrected on the defintion of "member's courses," but my main point is that adding yardage to just one or two holes is not going to fundamentally alter the way 95 percent of the people who play the course -- the day-to-day member and their guests.
My suggestion is nothing more than providing "elasticity" to a design of first rate quality. Lehigh excels at mid-length par-4's ... the ledger of at least having two long par-4's is a bit short (no pun intended!).
From what I have seen posted in response to my suggestion I still have not seen a counter argument that is compelling to change my mind. Lehigh is a wonderful design and I envy the members who have the opportunity to play such a wonderful layout. I offer my comments as only one perspective in increasing its standing which for too long has been underrated by nearly all the golf pubs -- particularly GD.
Regards,
Post by: Mike_Cirba on October 07, 2001, 05:35:00 PM
It's tough to answer your question as to whether to head out to Manor, near Reading. The course is quite short, but offers a handful of really good holes. All day long you go from really pretty easy holes to holes that are extremely difficult.
It's on a hilly piece of ground, and now that I think about it, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. There are at least 5 holes that come to mind that are probably worth the short trip.
Matt,
Sadly, I feel somewhat unqualified to provide you with a personal Pennsylvania Top ten. There are just too many highly-regarded courses in the state that I haven't played to feel that I'd do it justice.
I also am much less of a classical bigot than I might appear at times. As you know, I really do try to seek out new courses by modern architects and have tried to use this board to point out some of the better ones I've played in recent years (i.e. Twisted Dune, Blue Heron Pines East, Frog Hollow, Barefoot Resort (Norman), Blackwolf Run (River), and others). I also find that I approach each new course I play with a sort of unbridled optimism that I will enjoy the course. Generally, I always do, but as a pseudo-critic of golf course architecture, part of me is always looking at the course from a critical viewpoint.
To specifically address your points about Mystic Rock, I put it into the category of recent Dye efforts that try to be hard as nails and overdone in terms of man-made features. In a way, I feel that Dye has largely done what I'd call a parody of his style in recent years in some type of misguided effort to top his earlier controversial efforts. I wish this weren't the case, because I have the highest respect for all that he has done to elevate architecture during his storied career.
Post by: BillV on October 08, 2001, 08:18:00 AM
(Love to discuss things with you)
I wouldn't worry about the flowers, they take care of themselves, bees and all that. I really don't see them as a big deal.
Tom Weiskopf never built and never will build a course the calibre of Lehigh and is generally an idiot, best ignored.
When the fairway width is restored, there won't be enough water for all the grass and flowers! It will be firm!
(Actually, I looked today, but did not photograph, and virtually all the bunkers were entirely within the fairway widths in the 1940 aerial. The half and half mow pattern (Which I found quite deceptive at LuLu yesterday, BTW) is a great visually confusing device for the modern player. Another thing to rag on ANGC for (XXXXXXX Mowing patterns).
And still waiting for JohnV to weigh in on hte slope and rating question.
Post by: Mark_Fine on October 08, 2001, 04:58:00 AM
I took the sloping training course a few years back and am now a "certified course rater" to do slope evaluations. I took the training to learn about slope and course ratings than to actually go do it! I found the course very interesting but also very subjective. Much of the rating is a function of the makeup of the group that analyzes the golf course. During the training, we broke up into teams and did actual slope ratings of a series of golf holes. Every group came up with different numbers and some quite varied.
By my estimates (for what they are worth) I put Lehigh's back tees at 132 -134 slope and a course rating of 72.5 - 73.0 give or take.
Mark
Post by: TEPaul on October 08, 2001, 05:20:00 AM
What is the actual slope and rating of Lehigh from the back (I guess I have a card around here anyway and could look it up)? The slope might be accurate at around 132 (although that seems high too simply because the danger areas to a handicap player are somewhat limited) but there is absolutely no way at all that the course rating could be 72.5-73.00 with a par of 70. That would be very unfair to your entire traveling membership. Lehigh is a wonderful course and great to play but it is nowhere near that hard for a bona fide scratch golfer.
Post by: Matt_Ward on October 08, 2001, 06:48:00 AM
Saw your comments and had to pipe in with a response. I believe Lehigh to be about 73.0 from the back tees. I can name a number of courses in the immediate NY / NJ area that have this same number and our really a bit less in overall demands.
I play to about a two handicap and can drive the ball a decent distance off the tee and I found Lehigh to be a demanding and feisty layout. The greens demand keen positioning throughout the round. You just can't land anywhere and simply two-putt. I agree completely with Mark Fine who said during our round together last Thursday that John keeps the greens rather tame to avoid high level stress for the membership. Get the greens to a steady diet of 11 and above (trust me I'm not advocating this Mark!) on the Stimp and you will see plenty of grown men cry!!!
Too much of slope / ratings place too heavy an emphasis on elements relating to potential lost balls and the amount of water & OB. Lehigh has plenty of trouble areas -- they're just not so obvious.
Mark Fine:
Mark, when you say additional changes (adding length to #1 and #18) may mean other changes being made. I wonder what you mean by that. Is just adding another tee pad extension to #1 and #18 really that earth shattering?
Regards,
Post by: Scott_Burroughs on October 08, 2001, 07:09:00 AM
Matt,
I indeed played Twisted Dune Friday morning (swept the dew, first group off) and enjoyed it a lot. 14-17 is a tremendous stretch of holes. I didn't feel 18 was as "boring" a finisher as you felt it is. The fairway somewhat pinches in the landing area, with that HUGE bunker guarding the left side, and with the far back right pin placement they had, getting close to it was tough. You absolutely didn't want to be right. It also didn't play nearly as long as it did when you played it, as the wind was coming from the right. I only had a 7-iron in from the 472 yard tees.
I don't know how they figured #12 as the #2 handicap hole. We thought it was the easiest hole on the back nine. #14 seemed the toughest to us.
I also played Beechtree in the afternoon and enjoyed that a lot as well. Got to walk and carry at both, which is unusual these days.
Will you be playing as much golf around the country now that you're married?
Post by: Chris DeNigris on February 16, 2013, 11:18:59 AM
It really is a Fine example of what the discourse used to be like here a decade ago. ;)
I only wish that I had become enlightened about this GCA stuff earlier and had found this site back then. :(
One of Joe B’s terrific photo tours got me interested in Lehigh and a couple of holes stood out and made me check out the old files. I particularly liked the look and “feel” of 12 (the hole just seemed to speak to me in Joe’s photos) and the greensite at 15.
The commentary about 11 and the grass bunkers was intriguing.
Have there been any significant changes to Lehigh since this 2001 thread and is there more consensus regarding its relative position amongst PA’s best?
Post by: Mark McKeever on February 16, 2013, 11:39:36 AM
There have been lots of positive changes out at Lehigh since 2001. You really should get back to see it as should anyone in the area.
As for the work, they have been adding length to the longer par 4's while keeping the shorter ones in tact. Thus helping protect the quirkyness of some of the holes, which is great. One thing you will be shocked to see is the fantastic tree work the club has been doing. Many of the evergreens have been taken down to open up views between holes, and its done wonders.
Mark
Post by: Ed Brzezowski on February 16, 2013, 12:11:55 PM
Post by: Jud_T on February 16, 2013, 12:21:04 PM
Clearly it must have some as none of the major golf publications have ever ranked it.
#97 on Golfweek Classic List
http://golfweek.com/news/2012/mar/13/2012-golfweeks-best-classic-courses/?RANKINGS-GolfweeksBest
Post by: Bob Harris on February 16, 2013, 01:08:00 PM
It comes up for rating this year and hopefully Bob Harris will think it is too far to travel. Looks like a gem.
Ed,
We're selecting courses this Monday and Lehigh is #3 on my list. Jack may have the first or second pick so you need to do some lobbying with him.
Bob
Post by: Ed Brzezowski on February 16, 2013, 01:13:05 PM
Captain Jack has some business to attend to, so I am attending the conclave.
Is it true white smoke puffs out the windows at the conclusion ??
Ed
Post by: Bob Harris on February 16, 2013, 01:54:59 PM
Post by: Bill Brightly on February 16, 2013, 10:10:18 PM
I stumbled on this great thread in the archives while looking up some info on Lehigh.
It really is a Fine example of what the discourse used to be like here a decade ago. ;)
I only wish that I had become enlightened about this GCA stuff earlier and had found this site back then. :(
Great thread, but it is a Fine example of the time when CGA was brand new. A time when it was possible to create a great new thread by merely mentioning a good course, because all the the comments would be fresh by definition. A time when Ran posted on a regular basis, someone with an an eye for golf course architecture as good as anyone, in a class with Brad Klein, Pat Mucci, and others. I wish I was there too!
Post by: John Burnes on April 19, 2014, 09:31:19 PM
I played very good for me, so I suppose the slope could be strengthened, but I assume tougher pins could address this. Literally, the only thing I would improve is the club's logo.
I guess I can add to my (biased) list, that the Philly area has the best private golf in the country.
Post by: Peter Zarlengo on April 19, 2014, 11:11:11 PM
I agree, Lehigh is impressive. And as the title of the thread suggests, it's hard to find a weakness in its design. There are some thrilling golf shots and wonderful greensites there as the routing goes back and forth between rolling hills and creek valley.
The club undertook a lot of work a year ago paying off in the look and playability of the place. Tees were rearranged, trees removed, bunkers restored, and paths rerouted, which all polished up what was a great classic course to begin with. A big congrats to John Chassard and Ron Forse.
re: the 11th hole, I think the awkwardness of the hole's topography actually works in its favor as it places an emphasis on the tee shot, giving the player who finds the right side of the fairway options in an easy lay up or a chance at the green. If you don't find the fairway, the layup is no gimme and a short par-5 becomes difficult with a carry at some point over the creek to a perched and sloped green.
And I'll say this, in my 3 years working in Philadelphia, I never had more fun than my four months working at Lehigh.
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on April 20, 2014, 05:34:54 AM
Clearly it must have some as none of the major golf publications have ever ranked it.
#97 on Golfweek Classic List
http://golfweek.com/news/2012/mar/13/2012-golfweeks-best-classic-courses/?RANKINGS-GolfweeksBest
But it fell from # 82
And you have to understand how there's an ebb and flow in the higher half of the top 100
Post by: Bill Brightly on April 20, 2014, 09:40:04 AM
Clearly it must have some as none of the major golf publications have ever ranked it.
#97 on Golfweek Classic List
http://golfweek.com/news/2012/mar/13/2012-golfweeks-best-classic-courses/?RANKINGS-GolfweeksBest
But it fell from # 82
And you have to understand how there's an ebb and flow in the higher half of the top 100
And how there is probably very little to distinguish the higher half of the top 100 from those courses ranked 100-150.
I really like Lehigh but for me, the 11th is a good example of a bland par 5 connector hole on a challenging site. Unless you are incredibly long off the tee or love any "Risk/Reward" shot no matter how unbalanced the risk is, I think this hole demands a lay up short of the river for a simple wedge to the green. And since the vast majority of players can reach the same layup spot, it must be a tremendous maintenance challenge to keep this area from being a divot minefield.
Post by: Mark_Fine on April 22, 2014, 08:02:21 PM
Post by: Bill Brightly on April 22, 2014, 08:09:14 PM
If we played the hole 10 times with all good tee shots, and you go for the green every time while I lay up with a mid iron, I bet my stroke average beats yours...
Post by: Mark_Fine on April 22, 2014, 08:35:29 PM
You could say the same thing if we played the 13th hole at Augusta National 10 times. That doesn't make either hole any less great. Maybe if you played from a different tee box on each you would view the holes differently? The shot from the top of the hill at Lehigh to the green is only 190-200 yards downhill (big hitters hit as little a 7 irons). It might not be the smartest shot to go for it but that is one of the beauties of the design - it creates temptation and gets the best of golfer's egos! It is hard for most golfers to layup if they are in good position at the top of the hill and hit two wedges knowing they can reach that green with an iron, hybrid or wood and maybe make a 3 or 4! Most amateurs are capable of reaching the green from the top of that hill. How do you play #7 at Pine Valley? Do you like that hole? My guess is not at all because if you don't hit a great tee shot you can't even carry the acre! Now you have to hit a 50 yard pitch for your second and that is no fun 😉
Post by: Bill Brightly on April 22, 2014, 09:10:45 PM
You can't have it both ways. The hole may play well as a great risk reward hole TODAY for bombers, but when Flynn designed the hole I bet it was a true three shot hole. So I can't give Flynn credit for great design. With all due respect to him, I think he just needed to get the field back across the river...
I stand ready to be corrected if the original tee was short enough to allow for a decision on the second shot.
Augusta's 13th is a poor example for you to use. The truly long hitters who can properly shape a shot and use the fairway downslope can get into mid iron range. (Forget Bubba....) The "reward" side of the equation goes way up when you are talking mid iron versus the 3 wood you need at Lehigh. You would be a fool to go for the green at Augusta with a 3 wood, right? But 4 or 5 iron... then you have to think.
I played a match there against a true bomber. I hit driver-6 or 7 iron to the landing area. He hit driver-3 wood and bailed out a bit long and right. I'll take my simple wedge from the fairway any day versus his awkward pitch from the rough to that very small green.
Post by: Mark_Fine on April 22, 2014, 09:34:56 PM
Post by: Bill Brightly on April 22, 2014, 09:42:28 PM
But geeze, I must be a weaker player! I played it from the tips in an interclub match, hit a decent faded driver on the right side (I think I was on the upslope with a blind second shot) and thought "no way I'm going for that green."
Post by: John Burnes on April 22, 2014, 09:55:21 PM
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on April 23, 2014, 06:40:19 AM
It's been a while since I played Lehigh so I don't recall the 11th hole's original length and length today.
I do remember laying up on my second
Bill,
Time of year probably influences play a good deal.
I would imagine that playing in the Spring would tend to reduce the probability of going for it in two.
Post by: Jim Franklin on April 23, 2014, 10:06:05 AM
Post by: Bill Brightly on April 24, 2014, 01:41:37 AM
I have reviewed the old aerial photos and the tee box has not shifted since 1955, the oldest aerial. So I highly doubt that the longest hitters could reach the green in two when the course opened. Even with no irrigation and hard packed fairway conditions, I doubt players could loft a log shot to the green. To build a green so close to the Little Lehigh River might appear cool on paper, but an architect who does so leaves future superintendents with an inevitable problem.
The fact that John Burnes went for the green in two, missed the green in two but got a free drop for an embedded ball does NOT imply good gca. To the contrary, this is a weakness in design.
I've noted the high number of divot marks in the small second shot short of the river.This landing area is now about the size of a large green. ( Ib et 98% of the players target this area, so a large divot field is inevitable. (I think there were no trees or cart paths when the hole was built
The fact that greenside bunkers can't be built due to the inevitable flooding speaks volumes from a design perspective. Why are you building a green in a flood zone? You might get away with this in the early 20th century.
Cool hole, but still connector hole in my mind.
Post by: Mark_Fine on April 24, 2014, 09:29:24 AM
The landing area is massive!!! You need to play there again. Call me to play anytime. We tend to forget how far a golf ball used to roll without irrigation. By the way you never commented about #7 at Pine Valley which was Flynn's inspiration for #11? Also the ball rarely imbeds in the grass hollows and I play with golfers who go for that green all the time. As I said before, sand around that green would make the hole much easier and much more predictable. I like a hazard that creates uncertainty and the grass hollows work well there especially with the stream so close. I suggest we agree to disagree on this one. One thing is certain though, hitting that green from the top of the hill is the most exhilarating shot on the golf course hands down. Ask Ran who did just that and made eagle there 😉
Post by: Jim Sherma on April 24, 2014, 10:34:04 AM
In the few times I played the course more recently I always tried to go for 11 thinking I would rather have the wedge out of the rough around the green instead of the chip over the stream from a soft and tight fairway lie. This simply plays to my dislike for hitting wedges off of softer turf and having a fairly good short game.
The first couple of times I played Lehigh was back around 1983 or 4 and the reputation of the course around the Lehigh Valley was akin to Northampton Country Club being a distinct step below Saucon Valley. Saucon's old course (I can only speak to the course as it stood through the mid 1990's and have not played it since the revisions) is also wonderful and it would be difficult to choose between the two. Outside of that there is not a course in the Lehigh Valley that is even close in my opinion.
Perceptions abouyt Lehigh have certainly changed since then. Absoloutely a wonderful course with a scale that perfectly fits the land.
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on April 24, 2014, 10:39:02 AM
Bill,
The landing area is massive!!! You need to play there again. Call me to play anytime. We tend to forget how far a golf ball used to roll without irrigation. By the way you never commented about #7 at Pine Valley which was Flynn's inspiration for #11? Also the ball rarely imbeds in the grass hollows and I play with golfers who go for that green all the time. As I said before, sand around that green would make the hole much easier and much more predictable. I like a hazard that creates uncertainty and the grass hollows work well there especially with the stream so close. I suggest we agree to disagree on this one. One thing is certain though, hitting that green from the top of the hill is the most exhilarating shot on the golf course hands down. Ask Ran who did just that and made eagle there
Mark,
I believed every word you typed, until you stated that Ran hit the green in two and made the putt for eagle.
I"m sure it must be a "Ran" other than Ran Morrissett, who possesses neither the talent nor the tactical awareness to go for the green in two
Post by: Mark_Fine on April 24, 2014, 10:49:15 AM
Post by: Tom Ferrell on April 24, 2014, 10:54:16 AM
All - Lehigh CC is one of the finest examples of authentic Golden Age architecture I have encountered. The property provides great interest - the hogback on #2(?) for instance. The integration of the river's bends on #12 and #13 is absolutely masterful. And even on the less inspiring parts of the property, Flynn used visual elements to great effect - several skyline-type greens mess with depth perception.
The drop-shot par-3s are fun to play, and I personally loved the 11th (went for it in two, made the greenside bunker if I remember correctly).
Of course, I was lucky enough to play Lehigh with Mark and John, so I really got a good first-hand look. But the presence of and use of the river really make this course come alive. Fantastic club and fantastic course. Unquestionably a Top 100 Classic.
Post by: Bill Brightly on April 24, 2014, 04:50:49 PM
Bill,
The landing area is massive!!! You need to play there again. Call me to play anytime. We tend to forget how far a golf ball used to roll without irrigation. By the way you never commented about #7 at Pine Valley which was Flynn's inspiration for #11? Also the ball rarely imbeds in the grass hollows and I play with golfers who go for that green all the time. As I said before, sand around that green would make the hole much easier and much more predictable. I like a hazard that creates uncertainty and the grass hollows work well there especially with the stream so close. I suggest we agree to disagree on this one. One thing is certain though, hitting that green from the top of the hill is the most exhilarating shot on the golf course hands down. Ask Ran who did just that and made eagle there
I played PV two years ago but do not know Hole 7 well enough to comment.
The landing area on Lehigh's 11 is massive? I seem to recall that balls landing on the downslope will feed down to a flat area that was about as big as a large green. Maybe I am mistaken.
But in looking at old aerials photos it seems that the fairway was indeed much wider. In fact, it looks like there was a shared fairway with the adjacent hole. Is that true? Obviously, the advent of golf carts required a path for safety reasons, which created separation. But was there always a rough separation?
Post by: Mark_Fine on April 24, 2014, 10:01:02 PM
Nice to hear from you. All is well and busy as ever! We'll have to catch up.
Bill,
The shared fairway with #11 might have been with #15. I'd have to look at some old aerials to see.
Post by: Patrick_Mucci on April 24, 2014, 11:59:11 PM
Hard to believe a short knocker like Ran Morrisett could reach that green in two let alone make the putt but yes I did witness the unlikely event
Are you sure that wasn't Bubba Watson ?
They look very much alike and every now and then, Bubba plays righty.