Golf Club Atlas
GolfClubAtlas.com => Golf Course Architecture => Topic started by: Forrest Richardson on January 13, 2003, 08:33:54 PM
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I've been asked, based on a mention of Emil "Dutch" Loeffler, to start a discussion on Oakmont. As some of you know, my mentor, Jack Snyder (ASGCA), was at Oakmont as greenkeeper in the early 1950s. Jack's father, Arthur A. Snyder, caddied for H.C. Fownes and worked there on the grounds crew. Among Jack Snyder's contributions was overseeing the buffering of the course during the building of the turnpike -- and also reconstruction of No. 8 green in advance of the PGA.
Jack is recovering from an operation currently. I'll do my best to set him up so he can log into this thread. Perhaps you all might throw some questions and comments his way. (Please be patient as I'm not entirely sure what his schedule will be!)
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I've never set foot on Oakmont, but it is near the top of my list of USA courses that I would love to visit.
My question for the gentleman is this. When did the idea of raking the bunker sand into furrows originate, and about what time period did the practice end? Thanks.
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I would love to hear from Jack Snyder, particularly if he knows anything about the greenspeeds of Oakmont way back when. I know a man who's from Philly now who definitely knows a good deal about the game and Oakmont too as he's Emil's nephew. He also cut the greens at Oakmont when he was a teenager way back when and says that despite what Pete Dye said about those greenpeeds at Oakmont back then that they were the fastest in the world by a long way because of some things Emil Loeffler did at the insistence of William Fownes. Emil's nephew is not exactly oblivious to fast greens today either since he's belonged to both Merion and Pine Valley for years.
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Gary -- I happened to ask Jack when the practice of furrow raking bunkers (SAND TRAPS!) ended -- he said it was after he left, which was 1953 I believe. So I'm guessing the late 50s or early 60s. Interestingly, the furrowed rakes used by Jack's crew were made from sickle blades. The blades were cut into thirds and attached to metal handles.
TEPaul -- Stay tuned for Jack to chime in on your comments.
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Forrest, I have played Oakmont several times as the guest of a member who grew up on the course -- Sam Seem. Big guy with great touch, and a conoisseur of "ICL" (Iron City Light) and "center cut popcorn" in the men's grill.
My question: were the "Church Pews" always configured as at present? I'm really not aware of any other set of bunkers like that one. Or is it really just one big bunker!?
Looking forward to seeing you Sunday afternoon if it all works out. We are playing Apache Stronghold Friday and Saturday, and Talking Stick North Sunday. A GCA feast! I'm really looking forward to both courses.
Bill McBride
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Bill:
The church pew bunkers were always like that (under W. Fownes) except the sand used to be "furrowed".
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See you Sunday, Bill, providing I get back early -- which I plan on accomplishing. Keep in mind Tommy N.'s claim that Talking Stick North is "a great routing" as you negotiate yourseelf there. As you may have overheard I disagree. Very good course, but I see not much in the routing. It's sort of a spiral within a spiral. Have fun.
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Forrest,
I played Oakmont again last October and left there more impressed than ever. I've always loved the golf course but with the trees gone it is clearly one of the most amazing golf courses I have seen anywhere in the world!! I could not believe the difference without the trees. When you stand at the clubhouse and look out over the golf course it takes your breath away.
My question to you or Jack would be about the Turnpike and its impact on the golf course. Sad to say, I really don't know much about how the course changed as a result of the highway. It might be the only flaw I could find!
Mark
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Update: I have explained to Jack how to log on, etc. Watch for him soon.
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"My question to you or Jack would be about the Turnpike and its impact on the golf course. Sad to say, I really don't know much about how the course changed as a result of the highway. It might be the only flaw I could find!"
Mark
Mark:
That was a question of mine about a year ago after having played Oakmont for years--what did the turnpike do to the course?
Mark Studer answered that on here when I asked it--the turnpike did nothing to the course--as that's the way it's always been. Before the turnpike the cut through which the turnpike runs was a railroad bed and the railroad always ran through there dividing the golf course from the beginning!
Golf and railroads went hand in hand in the old days. Some of the great courses in the world have railroad or tracks very closely juxtaposed to them. I hardly ever think about it but my own course has that!
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Interesting. Thanks Tom.
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I believe that the Church Pews between 3 and 4 used to be several bunkers that were later made into the big Church Pew bunker.
At one time, Oakmont had something like 300+ bunkers but due to some combining and filling in of bunkers the number has been reduced by a half.
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TPaul-the other railroad that "came into play" was the one that runs from downtown out the 12 miles along the allegheny river to the town of oakmont. The club had a horse and carriage that would go up and down the steep hill (hulton road) to pick up and drop off golfers....there are some photos in the clubhouse that show the wagon pulling up between the clubhouse and the ninth green.Mark
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I have a question. Provided enough land and a large enough budget to craft 200+ bunkers and quick greens.....what separates Oakmont from any other course built on a nice piece of parkland??
I'm not stupid. I know that there is something different and special about Oakmont....but what is it? Is it simply the grandiose scale of everything? Bunkers? Greens?
Thanks is advance
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Forrest- I would love to hear what Jack has to say about the moving of the 8th green when the turnpke was added to the existing railroad bed. A long time caddie(JP celebrated his 90th 2 years ago) tells the story that the old 8th green was elevated about 3 feet above its present height and it played as a short par 4 that balls would not run up on and stay put.Please ask about the eighth green complex because aerial photos are difficult to interpret.Thank you for checking out this matter . Mark
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mdugger, I'm not an Oakmont expert but love playing it. I think some of what separates it (beyond a bunch of really good golf holes and a couple of great ones!) is the history. Mr. Fownes built the course, which I think has a lot of modern feeling to it, in 1903 I think! And every time somebody hit a ball where he didn't think they were supposed to be able to, he had a bunker built overnight! And big mean rakes to keep the bunkers furrowed so no easy extractions! He sounds like he must have been an incredible tyrant, just the thing to keep a famous old course showing its teeth forever. I have no idea what the green speeds were in the old days, but there is so much slope that they must have been quick at all times.
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mdugger:
Your question about what separates Oakmont from any other large and good piece of land with 200 bunkers and quick greens is actually a very fine question.
The answer, in detail anyway, would be a long one but in a nutshell what separates it is basically just extremely good architecture in almost everyway through and through.
The course uses it's available land very well and the individual holes use their particular topogrophy excellently in how the bunkers are arranged in relation to each holes topography, roll, kick, filter etc, how the greens are designed and built flowing near perfectly with their individual hole's topography and on an on. Approaches where the green may be below you using green formations that are probably natural grade often running away from you and vice versa going the other way.
Oakmont is basically a real study in how to use land well architecturally and how to use the natural landforms of the holes apparently almost perfectly.
It's a very good question you ask. Another large site with as many interesting natural characteristics as Oakmont has could probably produce as good a course but the architect would have to do a great job in identifying it all and arranging it all as well.
But afterall, that's what great architecture is all about!
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TEPaul
Thank you. That's a fine analysis. I can't help but feel that this issue of 'good architecture' must have something to do with the length of time spent 'extracting' the strategy and charm out of what appears to be a fairly 'plain' piece of parkland.
Which leads me to believe that there have been thousands of courses built since Oakmont that have had the same amount of potential but have failed to find themselves in Oakmont's league. All history aside....special rakes and quick greens.
Every course built since, that fails to live up to Oakmont's billing, ought to be ashamed of themselves. I mean, this course has a lot NOT going for it. Parkland...turnpike...yet it is one of the ten best in the U.S. year after year. Simple, straightforward....seems like the potential is there for others to emulate it.
One last question, Mr. Paul.....would you say that Oakmont is a well bunkered course. I'm not so much looking for thoughts along the lines of bunker placement, but aesthetics. I always thought they looked FANTASTIC. Yet, rarely do I see another course that quite captures their look. Church Pews aside. Thoughts?
Thanks
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My question what was the club reaction to Johnny Miller shooting 63 in the 1973 Open and if that has influenced the club in its setup?
Hope Jack is feeling better.
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Jack is very weak, but doing OK. Imagine a chap in his 80s having to endure a whole two weeks in a hospital! Awful! Anyway, I am hopeful he will be up to answering all your fine questions in the enxt day or so. Thanks for your patience.
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Forrest
I was wondering if Jack was involved in the bunker renovations back in the mid 80,s. I understand that all the sand in the bunkers was removed and "washed" on site and reapplied. Was there any "shaping" or placement modifications? And did they do any of this crazy restoring to a certain year etc.? Basically wanting to know his involvement and the magnitude of the project? Thanks.
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GRAMPA -- Jack was only there in the early 1950s.
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Forrest
Sorry for the mix up, but I thought it would be logical to call in Jack to consult considering his father and he had been part of the club for many years. Maybe he had some inside knowledge in some old daily logs from the early construction process. Since we know at the time many ideas were developed and implemented in the field during construction. This may have been beneficial to the club and members involved.
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TEPAUL-
IF you wouldn't mind, would you please offer some thoughts on the bunker placement at Oakmont as well and how they relate to the natural contours of the land and the contours of the green? IF you wouldn't mind could somebody cite some examples. I am rather curious as I have never even been within 100 miles of the place and you don't really see much about the architecture outside of GCA.
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Here are some answers from Jack Snyder. He is at home, but not much energy to even get on the computer -- so these have been dictated to me for all your enjoyment:
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When did the idea of raking the bunker sand into furrows originate, and about what time period did the practice end?
Jack recalls that his father noted that the practice began early on after the course was built. Jack's father, Arthur A. Snyder, began caddying in 1907. Eventually caddying for W.C. Fownes, Jr., before getting promoted to the greenkeeping crew. It was after jack left as greenkeeper (1952) that the powers that be (perhaps the USGA?) felt the practice of furrowed rakes unfair. Exact dates unknown.
Jack and his family always felt the practice was fine -- after all, sand is supposed to be a hazard! Interestingly, almost all courses in Western PA also raked traps with furrowed rakes at that time. The practice was widespread -- after all, if Oakmont did it, it was the thing to do!
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About the greenspeeds of Oakmont way back when?
Jack says they rolled the greens heavily -- and often. Especially before tournaments. They also shaved the knives on the greens mowers so the cuts would be very clean and close. Jack recalls mowing at 3/16-inch -- but with the shaved knives it made it seem a cleaner cut -- and it made for faster surfaces. Jack says they were the fastest he'd ever seen in that day.
Jack came to Oakmont when all green mowing was by hand mowers -- and they were not gas powered! He had to argue to give power mowers a try and they (green committee) agreed. they tested the Toro "Pony", about a 20" wide gas mower. It worked excellently and the club purchased several, at least three. That was in 1951 -- first power mowers at Oakmont greens!
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Were the "Church Pews" always configured as at present?
They are as Jack recalls them since he can remember. He first set foot on Oakmont in about 1933 or thereabouts. The bunker is one bunker with grass ridges spaced within. Jack recalls cutting the ridges with scythes, not mowers. He doubts that the bunker was originally several long traps which were made into one large with the ridges -- but he will defer to you historians on this question.
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My question to Jack would be about the Turnpike and its impact on the golf course. Sad to say, I really don't know much about how the course changed as a result of the highway?
The course really didn't change as there was quite a right-of-way already there for the railroad, as TEPaul said. Jack recalls that the turnpike commission may have facilitated the addition of a pedestrian bridge. The noise was a factor, especially the part of the highway where trucks had to shift gears to make the grade. Jack planted conifers along that area to assist in buffering the course. Jack staked all of the trees along Nos. 7 and 8, and behind Nos. 1 green, 9 tee, and 10 green and 11 tee -- adjacent to the turnpike.
All-in-all the turnpike really didn't have much negative impact to the the course.
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Regarding No. 8 Green?
The Green Committee authorized Jack to re-do No.8 green after Jack asked pro Lew Worsham how many times he might be able to hold the green -- "Only one in four" was Worsham's answer. Jack created the plan for the green and used in-house labor to get the work done. The sand came from local river sources. The Saraha trap stayed along the left, the change was in contouring and a raise on the right portion so a ball could be held more often by a well executed shot. The intent was not to change, just improve the playability.
"When a pro of Worsham's caliber could only be on 1 out of 4, something needed to be done", Jack said.
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I would love to hear what Jack has to say about the moving of the 8th green when the turnpke was added to the existing railroad bed?
The re-done No. 8 green had nothing to do with the turnpike, it was simply Jack's suggestion because the green was too difficult to hold. And, it didn't move, it just was just re-contoured. Jack also enhanced the sand on the right, making it work with the newly contoured green. Jack also recalls building a new forward tee at No. 8 hole at the same time.
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Regarding the No. 8 green being 3 feet above its present height and playing as a short par 4 that balls would not run up on and stay put?
Jack doesn't recall this at all -- No. 8 was raised only on the right and it was always a par-3 as he can recall. He kept the green in the same spot and shape.
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mdugger & Chris Hervochon:
Sorry, I missed your questions to me from about a week ago.
As for the aesthetic look of Oakmont's bunkering, particularly fairway, I would say it's very unique, maybe even one of a kind. Why? Good question but it may just relate to the Fownes family, particularly William (the son), as it's pretty clear to me that Oakmont, as much as any course anywhere, is an expression of personal opinion in so many ways--look, intent in play etc, etc! If the Fownes's intended to copy some architecture or some architectural prinicple, I'm really not aware of what that is!
I think I can see (from some Pine Valley material) that William Fownes was a man with a very strong will and very unique ideas about golf. He believed, as did some of his contemporaries and close friends (the Philadelphia School particularly), in very high demand architecture in some cases and on some courses, certainly Oakmont, his lifelong project.
Fownes was a very good player and clearly believed in super high testing of very good players. He believed in rewarding extremely good and clever play though. Fortunately or unfortunately, he also believed, as did his friend Crump, in really really penalizing anything less, even from good players.
They (Crump and Fownes) did depart from each other in certain instances such as Fownes's recommendation on the redesign of PVGC's 1st green. This was as much concept and principle as anything else.
But as to Chris's question of how the Oakmont bunkers relate to placement and the contours of the land---in both cases the Oakmont bunkering, through the green, is about as well and tough-placed in a center directed fashion as you can find on a golf course. Basically the overall bunker placement (through the green) with other supporting features counterbalances a good deal on the opposite sides of fairways with things like drainage swales (rough) etc and is super demanding.
The reasons it's super demanding is because some of the bunkering is placed in such a way as to filter the ball using fairway contours and slope directly into the fairway bunkering (often bunkering placed on the low side below sloping fairways). #13 is probably the best and most acute example of that. On many other holes the angles used with fairway and bunkering often accomplishes the same things altough those angle can be very subtle sometimes. The bunkering also accomplishes the same intensity often simply using psychology since recovering from most of the Oakmont fairway bunkers is often just a short shot of necessity due to their penal architecture.
Basically Oakmont is what I would call a "center directed" course strategically but inside that center direction is some of the most nuancy options concerning the bounce of the ball using little fairway contours and slope also speed.
Last night I was talking to D Moriarty about the differences in what he calls vertical options vs horizontal options. I call the same effect distance vs accuracy (width) options.
In this way Oakmont doesn't really use a lot of width options in its design--it is very much center directed. That kind of thing for the pros will clearly get down to much more club selection everywhere than decisions of which directions to play the ball.
But again the look of the bunkering at Oakmont is very unique, old fashioned looking and quite man-made looking in some cases (like the church pews).
I would like to answer your question about the bunkering greenside at Oakmont but that's something I didn't pay quite so much attention to when last there for a number of days. So I won't comment on that.
One thing Oakmont does do, though, happily, is consistently maintain about the most perfect "maintenance meld" for its overall design as one can find consistently anywhere.
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based on the recent Oakmont thread, I've moved this up so it might be aviailable to those interested. Enjoy.
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bump - good reading here with the Open on the way.
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Pardon my ignorance here, but I have a question about furrowed bunkers.
Was the practice "invented" to make bunkers more difficult, or was the furrowed rake just one of the early bunker raking tools? I guess what I'm really getting at is was this practice intentionally done for playability, or was it just a matter of inventing new rakes for bunkers that made the old furrowing ones "obsolete"?
The implications for me are that if it was just obsoleted by newer rakes, then it seems like a big component of reverting to using the furrowing ones is simply a "return to traditional golf values on the course, etc, etc" in the face of the onslaught of techincal advances in golf, both for playing equipment and maintainence equipment.
However if they were invented specifically for this, then its a better arguement, at least in my mind, to return to using them again.
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Kalen — They were invented to make Oakmont stand apart — and to add difficulty. The furrowed trap had to be mastered. Jack Snyder used to say that it was easy to hit out of the bunkers once one realized that it allowed sand to buffer the club and ball.
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Untilreading through this thread, it never dawned on mewhat a maintenance headach the church pew bunkers present. Do they mow the benches with a weed eater these days?
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They were called "sand traps" in Western PA, not "bunkers" !
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I always knew that the greens were fast and firm, but I did not realize how firm they were until I took my son there when he was about 12 years old. As he was putting on the practice green on the back of 9 green, he turns to me and says, "Dad my spikes (yes metal spikes) don't go into the ground." Now that's firm.