[Simon Barrington]

I was recently looking into some J H Taylor courses.
As JHT & Hawtree had worked for James Braid on several occassions (incl. Ipswich GC at Purdis Heath, with great success) and came across something that may be of some interest to the Mackenzie devotees on here?

In reviewing the Club Centenary Book for Long Ashton GC, on their website where you can read the whole book on-line.

https://www.longashtongolfclub.co.uk/club_history

It clearly states in Chapter 2, p.13 onwards that Alister Mackenzie did an early redesign there (while with Colt & "Allinson" - excuse the book's spelling!) in 1921 that essentially is the current routing?

Looking through GC Atlas Search for "Long Ashton" there seems no mention at all of any Mackenzie link.

JH Taylor w. Hawtree did a redesign in 1937.

Adrian Stiff did some work there a while back, it seems under quite a strident Committee.
He states in one thread there are only 6 JHT Holes left...so he may know more, or not?...

Interestingly Dr Mackenzie was confirmed as being in the in the local area at that time, as per "The Mackenzie Chronology" :-

April 1921-March 1922 -
Bristol & Clifton GC, Bristol, England.
MacKenzie visited club to inspect course and prepared a plan including bunkering. Exact date of visit not known, as the Annual Report for the year ending March 1922, prepared in readiness for the AGM, reads: “The advice of Dr MacKenzie has been taken and a scheme for the further bunkering of the Course prepared by him which your Committee intend to carry out in the future as occasions will permit.”

Good Luck and Best wishes!
Simon

EDITED - Title (following the subsequent discussion & Adrian Stiff's generous input)

[Richard Fisher]

Long Ashton was the site of my first ever round of 'proper' golf, and also of the first professional tournament I ever saw. My Dad took me to watch the Martini Tournament of 1966, and Bill Large holed out from the beer tent to tie with Peter Alliss, setting a high standard for dramatic finishes never subsequently beaten...local lore in 1960s Bristol was always that the Bristol and Clifton GC at Failand was the premier Bristol club, but that Long Ashton was the better golf course, so how much eventual impact the Doctor had on BandCGC I am not sure?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Long Ashton is one of those golf courses where it is really hard to say who designed it. It has changed so much from its original. The whole course has had NEW greens.


The original course was 9 holes and on the land current 3rd 4th and 5th are on. None of those original holes remain, Up until mid 90s there were 5 holes on that same land.


I think from c1940-1995 the course was little changed, A new clubhouse (still there) saw the course start from a brand new place.


Current course:
Hole 1. Same hole as 1901 design though a bit longer to correspond with clubhouse site.  JHT
Hole 2. Same hole as 1901 design. JHT
Hole 3. Not sure about the date and who did the work, but probably changed 70 years ago, Green is older I think
Hole 4. Quite similar ground the very old 9th.
Hole 5. This is Hawtree c2005 and a right mess IMO. Two great holes lost to make ONE bad one.  I wanted the old 5 and 6 to continue as they were. I think the previous 5th could have been Pennink. The previous 6th was a truly great bunkerless par 4 and was part of the original course. Both holes were great architecture. If you google 1999 you can still see these holes. The old 5th green was short but had a super thin green claimed a lot of fives. 6th green remains and is probably the only surviving green from the very original 9.
Hole 6. This is c1995 and one of my holes in the new valley. AS
Hole 7. This is mine again, very different holes but the whole of LA is all on different parts. The club use the holes in their promos so must think they are among the best. AS
Hole 8. I think this is Colt Allison McKenzie, nice short par 4. CAM
Hole 9. Same as above CAM
Hole 10. JHT hole, though a bit longer now.
Hole 11. JHT hole, and a bit longer now.
Hole 12. JHT hole, unaltered. ( I wanted to keep 5 and 6 rather than join them up as 1 hole) I wanted to join 11 and 12 up as one hole albeit move tee forward from present 11th tee. It had some support from the committee but not enough they felt the loop of 10 and 8 (returning to the house) was more important than loops of 11 and 7 holes.
Hole 13. New Hole Mark Wuestenbourg (I think) c2010
Hole 14. Has changed from JHT original straight hole.
Hole 15. JHT original
Hole 16. 1940 New hole
Hole 17. 1940 New hole
Hole 18. JHT original although longer.


LA basically moved from 9 holes on very quirky/painswicky type land, these holes were loved and hated and over time the club has reduced the number of holes they play on this section to just 3. As holes were added holes were taken from this section. The club favoured flat land and planted trees. I am suprised Sean has not played it, he would like some parts.


I always assumed JHT did the original 1901 design, but reading the history I don't know.

[Simon Barrington]

Long Ashton was the site of my first ever round of 'proper' golf, and also of the first professional tournament I ever saw. My Dad took me to watch the Martini Tournament of 1966, and Bill Large holed out from the beer tent to tie with Peter Alliss, setting a high standard for dramatic finishes never subsequently beaten...local lore in 1960s Bristol was always that the Bristol and Clifton GC at Failand was the premier Bristol club, but that Long Ashton was the better golf course, so how much eventual impact the Doctor had on BandCGC I am not sure?

Great memories, back when Pro Events played on a more varied, interesting and traditional rota.
The advent of facility fees being received rather than paid out by the "Tour" led to events being played on bland modern "Tournament" or "Championship" courses (whatever either of those undefined terms mean).

[Simon Barrington]

Long Ashton is one of those golf courses where it is really hard to say who designed it. It has changed so much from its original. The whole course has had NEW greens.

The original course was 9 holes and on the land current 3rd 4th and 5th are on. None of those original holes remain, Up until mid 90s there were 5 holes on that same land.

I think from c1940-1995 the course was little changed, A new clubhouse (still there) saw the course start from a brand new place...
...LA basically moved from 9 holes on very quirky/painswicky type land, these holes were loved and hated and over time the club has reduced the number of holes they play on this section to just 3. As holes were added holes were taken from this section. The club favoured flat land and planted trees. I am suprised Sean has not played it, he would like some parts.

I always assumed JHT did the original 1901 design, but reading the history I don't know.

Thanks Adrian,
It is always a conundrum to work out the chronology of routings/holes etc. It takes a good bit of researching & unravelling, and then a further debate as to attribution/influence of course.

I think this is probably one for the Mackenzie Society (UK version) to consider, so I'll leave that to them...

Spoiler Alert: There are, potentially, remaining on the current 18 Holes; 8x Dr. MacKenzie (1921) Holes, 3x JHT (1937) Holes, 2x Adrian Stiff (1995) Holes, 1x George Kingston (1901), 1x Mark Westernborg (2010), and 3x Unknown Holes. So it probably has a higher claim as a Dr. MacKenzie Course than a JHT Course?

(Although, in the AOJBC, we don't seek to claim any course per se as a "Braid Course", to the exclusion of others. But rather, research and know with certainty that he worked on the said course and there is at least some signficant feature, hole, routing still in situ and of interest that can be reasonably confirmed as JB's. That is the case even if others have done work prior to or post that, we try to research, understand and celebrate the evolution regardless of who is involved.)

Back to Long Ashton GC - From the 4x routing maps in the Centenary Book (1901 Original 9-Holer attributed to George Kingston, 1921 18-Holes by Dr. Mackenzie, 1937 revision by JH Taylor, and 1993), the kind comments and information of yours, and the current routing (via Provisualizer.com) I think the following maybe close to the chronology of the current holes that remain:-

(**IF SOMEONE CAN PLEASE TEACH ME HOW TO ADD PICTURES ON HERE, THEN THE FOLLOWING MAY BE EASIER TO FOLLOW)

Hole 1. Originally Mackenzie's new 14th Hole from 1921. Became 1st in 1937 (JHT routing). Now a bit longer to correspond with clubhouse site. -  Dr. MacK

Hole 2. Originally Mackenzie's new 15th Hole from 1921. Became 2nd in 1937 (JHT routing) hole as 1901 design. - Dr MacK

Hole 3. Uses the original 1901 6th Green site, but played in reverse down the original 4th routing. Mackenzie in 1921 used the same green played from a tee further south towards the corner as his 17th Hole. JHT used the same green site, but from the current tee, in 1937 as his 3rd Hole. JHT's map indicates the 17th was played down this routing prior to JHT's plan so unsure who and when this changed to the current hole but between 1921 & 1937. - So Unknown, but not GK, JHT or Dr. MacK.

Hole 4. Played down the routing from the original 7th Tee to the original 8th Green (just left of  a small pond) on the 1901 routing. Dr. Mackenzie combined these in 1921 but with a straighter routing as his 18th Hole. JHT then added a new green to the East of the (original 8th/Mackenzie 18th) green as his 4th Hole. One can see the old green pad on the Current Aerial near to the 5th Tee if one projects a line along a straighter (Dr. MacK) fairway line. - JHT

Hole 5. This is a combination of the original 2nd & 3rd Holes from 1901. Dr. MacKenzie in 1921 left them pretty untouched in routing as his 2nd & 3rd. JHT moved the 2nd Tee (but now his 5th) south-easterly beyond the original 1st green site, creating a L-R dog-leg to the original green, he left the 3rd as was, but it was his 6th Hole. By 1993 the JHT tee was no longer used for the now 5th, and the hole reverted to its original routing. Then as Adrian states Hawtree (disappointingly) combined the 5th & 6th into one long (Par-5) 5th Hole c.2005. (Re: 6th green remains and is probably the only surviving green from the very original 9. - The 3rd Green is also in its original location but I don't have detail as to shape and character to know if it is another potentially original green?) - GK, but 2 Holes into 1 by Hawtree

Hole 6. New Hole in previously unused (perhaps not owned) land  c.1995. - Adrian Stiiff

Hole 7. New Hole in previously unused (perhaps not owned) land  c.1995. - Adrian Stiff

Hole 8. This Hole is described as the Old 5th on JHT's 1937 Plan, but it doesn't exist on the 1921 Dr. Mackenzie Routing. - Unknown, between 1921-1937

Hole 9. Same as 8th above as "Old 6th" - Unknown, between 1921-1937

Hole 10. New Hole added by Dr. Mackenzie in 1921 at its current length as his 6th Hole. Notably indicated as "Old 7th" on JHT's 1935 plan when it became the 10th - Dr. MacK

Hole 11. New Hole added by Dr. Mackenzie in 1921 slightly shorter than its current length played from a tee which was level with the 18th Green. Unchanged by JHT in 1937 but became the 11th. Lengthened at some time between 1937 & 1993 - Dr. MacK

Hole 12. New Hole added by Dr. Mackenzie in 1921 slightly shorter than its current length played from a tee which was level with the then 7th Green, as his 8th Hole. Unchanged by JHT in 1937 but slightly lengthened and became the 12th. Lengthened slightly further at some time between 1937 & 1993 - Dr. MacK

Hole 13. This green seems to be located on or near the site of Dr. Mackenzie's 1921 new 9th Short Hole, played from the top LH corner. JHT notes this as the "Old 10th" when re-routing the as a short Par-4 13th a dogleg-right played from short left of the 12th Green up in the top LH (West) corner of the property. In 1993 the hole had returned to its 1921 routing. 13th “New” Hole direction to original green site (if not actual green) by Mark Westenbourg  c.2010 - MW

Hole 14. New 10th hole by Dr. MacKenzie in 1921 and was a straight hole to the existing green site. JHT shaped the fairway leftwards to create a L-R dog-leg to the same green as his 14th Hole. - Dr. MacK (w. JHT Tweak)

Hole 15. New 11th hole by Dr. MacKenzie in 1921 and was again a straight hole to the existing green site. JHT shaped the fairway slightly rightwards to create a gentle R-L dog-leg to the same green as his 15th Hole. - Dr. MacK (w. JHT Tweak)

Hole 16. New hole by JHT in 1937 as remains - JHT

Hole 17. New hole by JHT in 1937 as remains. Potentially used the “lost” 12th Green site from Dr. Mackenzie’s 1921 Plan which played from the South West corner of the property towards the current 18th Tee. - JHT

Hole 18. New 13th hole by Dr. MacKenzie in 1921 and was again a straight hole from a tee either on or behind the “lost” 12th Green to the existing (18th) green site. JHT lengthened the hole in 1937 by moving the tee back (as allowed by his new slight dog-leg to the 15th Hole)  - Dr. MacK

If this was originally perceived as a JHT Course for a restoration/renovation, had the discovery that it could be considered a Dr. MacKenzie Course come to light, would/should that change the design palette and approach to bunkering etc.?

[Adrian_Stiff]

Simon:


I am really unsure of how much the Dr Mac/Colt/Allison involvement would have been to the actual routing.


The real routing seems to be done in an 18 hole course opening in 1906. It comprised holes from the original 9 hole course, A new hole up to the current 10th tee and then holes West of Providence lane.


The current 2nd hole would have been 1906 so not Dr Mac.


The routing of 10 and 1 would also have meant that these would have been 1906.


Almost certainly 11, 12 and 18 would have patterned the same.


I 'think' Dr Macs involvement would have been upgrading.


So who did the 1906 routing? J H Taylor? No plan is shown but there must have been at least 8 holes west side of Providence Lane, probably holes 10-11-12-14-15-18-1-2. I think there would have been the hole between 15 and 18 as well, but maybe the 13th (as was) was not in the 1906 layout, the hole to the current 14th green being straight.


The 1937 amendments are a new 8th and 9th and a new 16th and 17th.


My previous post I did more from memory I though the McK-Colt-Allison was nearer the 2WW but it was just after the 1stWW.


After I did the 2 new holes (plus an extra hole they use in the winter) they continued playing the Old 5th and Old 7th for a few years. The 1999 google still shows the 5th.


The new 13th hole is to a new green. The Old 13th could have been a Dr McK.


Probably holes 10-18 on the current course are the holes with the least architectural interest as the land is flatter, it does have good bunkering and all good strong holes. Best hole on the course IMO is the 2nd hole.

[Simon Barrington]

Simon:
I am really unsure of how much the Dr Mac/Colt/Allison involvement would have been to the actual routing.
The real routing seems to be done in an 18 hole course opening in 1906. It comprised holes from the original 9 hole course, A new hole up to the current 10th tee and then holes West of Providence lane.
The current 2nd hole would have been 1906 so not Dr Mac.
The routing of 10 and 1 would also have meant that these would have been 1906.
Almost certainly 11, 12 and 18 would have patterned the same.

I 'think' Dr Macs involvement would have been upgrading.

So who did the 1906 routing? J H Taylor? No plan is shown but there must have been at least 8 holes west side of Providence Lane, probably holes 10-11-12-14-15-18-1-2. I think there would have been the hole between 15 and 18 as well, but maybe the 13th (as was) was not in the 1906 layout, the hole to the current 14th green being straight.

The 1937 amendments are a new 8th and 9th and a new 16th and 17th.
My previous post I did more from memory I though the McK-Colt-Allison was nearer the 2WW but it was just after the 1stWW.
After I did the 2 new holes (plus an extra hole they use in the winter) they continued playing the Old 5th and Old 7th for a few years. The 1999 google still shows the 5th.
The new 13th hole is to a new green. The Old 13th could have been a Dr McK.
Probably holes 10-18 on the current course are the holes with the least architectural interest as the land is flatter, it does have good bunkering and all good strong holes. Best hole on the course IMO is the 2nd hole.

Thanks Adrian

I had missed the 1906 extension (skim reading in haste) and was going solely off the 4x Plans in the Book (on-line) and went down the rabbit hole. So the differences between the initial extension of 1906 routing and Dr. Mackenzie's in 1921 would fill the gap in knowledge.

It is very odd that there is no mention or understanding of who did the 1906 extension to 18-Holes at all (perhaps in-house by Committee?).

At the time if JHT or any other notable person was involved there certainly would be some promotion of that fact, and perhaps even an Opening Match (as The Triumvirate often did for each others design work)...local press cutting (now digitised) may help others find that...

I'll leave the mystery for others to solve (unless it turns out to be James Braid, which I doubt, and then it will land back on my desk!)

I raised the discussion as I found no reference at all elsewhere by others (more knowledgable) to Dr. MacKenzie's involvement there (no matter how extensive, or otherwise)...so a notable find for that at least & pending the mystery of 1906 one of greater interest to others who seek out The Good Doctor's Chronology etc...

Cheers

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