[mike_malone]

For an average golfer whose roll out drive is less than 250 this kind of hole generally means a chip shot or longer third shot.


 I think these short shots are underrated in golf. They often determine the results in competition.


I also find that depending on conditions the chance to get home in two makes one hit the wood for the second shot.


It seems that some people don’t like these holes. I love the variety.

[Tim Taylor]

I think average golfers love these as par 5 holes and detest them has par 4 holes!


Tim

[Brian Finn]

I also love the variety provided by such "in-between" length holes. I appreciate one or two holes per round that nearly always bring the bold longer approach into strong consideration, even if it will take two of my best shots to achieve.  If the hole causes me to consider a lay-up of some sort, even better, as the presence of doubt and temptation make the shot more interesting. I honestly don't care if the hole is listed as a par 4 or 5, but I am a huge nerd, and always figure these half-par holes will (or should) balance out over the course of a round.

[Pierre C]

I've noticed a few of these long par 4s are par 4 for men and par 5 for women.


I completely agree, the skill for short yardage shots is underrated, especially for the average player. Short yard shots require time commitment to practice from various distances.

For an average golfer whose roll out drive is less than 250 this kind of hole generally means a chip shot or longer third shot.


 I think these short shots are underrated in golf. They often determine the results in competition.


I also find that depending on conditions the chance to get home in two makes one hit the wood for the second shot.


It seems that some people don’t like these holes. I love the variety.

[Jeff Schley]

I think average golfers love these as par 5 holes and detest them has par 4 holes!


Tim

Tim very much agree here. It gives us a thrill of maybe getting home in 2, or gulp..... an eagle putt!
With Bryson hitting an 8 iron from 243 yesterday and carried all the way to the pin wow!

[Jim_Coleman]

   Half pars are fine. Variety is the spice of life. But please don’t tell me that lesser players need more opportunities for short game fun. That’s all we get! Hitting greens in regulation is the exception.

[David Cronan]

I think average golfers love these as par 5 holes and detest them has par 4 holes!


Tim

Tim very much agree here. It gives us a thrill of maybe getting home in 2, or gulp..... an eagle putt!
With Bryson hitting an 8 iron from 243 yesterday and carried all the way to the pin wow!

To be fair, it was 220. Which in and of itself tells me that these guys truly do play a different game and to even think of trying to relate to their games is a futile act.


I'm surprised #6 at Valhalla hasn't received more hate from the treehouse. I think it's the worst hole on the course and, maybe, all of Kentucky. It has ZERO strategy attached, other than trying to shave off 10-15 yards by hugging the creek, which nobody, pro or amateur, intentionally does.

[Matt_Cohn]

I think average golfers love these as par 5 holes and detest them has par 4 holes!


Tim

Tim very much agree here. It gives us a thrill of maybe getting home in 2, or gulp..... an eagle putt!
With Bryson hitting an 8 iron from 243 yesterday and carried all the way to the pin wow!

His 8 iron has the loft of my 6 iron, not that this isn’t still a long way, but it’s not the same.

[mike_malone]

   Half pars are fine. Variety is the spice of life. But please don’t tell me that lesser players need more opportunities for short game fun. That’s all we get! Hitting greens in regulation is the exception.

The sky is blue.

[Thomas Dai]

On a 480 yd hole if a player hits his/her Driver 20 yds further than their longest fairway metal, which is likely a reasonable outcome, then a -
250 yd tee shot means a 230 yd second shot leaves 0 yards to the green

200 yd tee shot means a 180 yd second shot leaves 100 yds to the green
150 yd tee shot means a 130 yd second shot leaves 200 yds to the green, ie another fairway metal plus a further 70 yds
Be careful when discussing averages for there are lots of different types of golfers whether it be via ability, age, gender etc and they play differently.
Atb

[mike_malone]

I was trying to speak to a hole that is a tweener that you think you may reach in two but not usually.


 Many get frustrated by such a hole. They either want to reach a hole  in two , par 4, or reach in three , par 5.


  I play with many average golfers. 12/17 handicaps and the driving distance mostly is 200 to 240 with the roll.
I see many thinking this type of hole is weak because they think they should reach it in two but can’t.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Even though I generally agree, for the sake of keeping it interesting, let me push back a bit.


I think that 480 yard holes can be good, but usually aren't.

Even in this thread we're talking about distance, and not talking about strategy. If the 480 yard hole is a penal runway (they usually are), then I typically can't stand them because they are boring, and just reward power for the sake of power.

If the 480 yard hole is a strategic marvel, then I typically love it, but it's usually an obvious par 5, which sort of defeats the purpose of the discussion.

I think most holes that are a drive, fairway wood, and a chip, when they are very strategic, appear to be long par 4s, and not short par5s, but play as 4.5s.

[Joe Bausch]

   Half pars are fine. Variety is the spice of life. But please don’t tell me that lesser players need more opportunities for short game fun. That’s all we get! Hitting greens in regulation is the exception.

The sky is blue.

A beautiful blue.

[archie_struthers]

 


Couldn't agree more with Mayday. As much as my game rots at times I have a great relationship with my 5 wood, It's in action a lot on holes like this!  As a matter of fact the longer par fours often give you a real sense of accomplishment when you stripe on on the green from 200+ yards out.


As a corollary we often negotiate to play the tips on the five pars in our regular "game" as long as some of my buds don't put their tn foil hats on.  The bombers struggle to hit them in two and often get in trouble with management. But that's another discussion

[Sean_A]

For an average golfer whose roll out drive is less than 250 this kind of hole generally means a chip shot or longer third shot.


 I think these short shots are underrated in golf. They often determine the results in competition.


I also find that depending on conditions the chance to get home in two makes one hit the wood for the second shot.


It seems that some people don’t like these holes. I love the variety.

Oh yes. The 440ish to 490ish is a good range. Still, it’s more about the design than the yardage. These days, I am less enamoured with long 4s that have a forced carry short of the green. Still, this type of hole has a place, especially if it doesn’t mean the ball takes a bath if short.


Ciao

[Pierre C]

Some data on average distance for driver & other clubs.

Among the 2,305, 672 of male golfers who kept a handicap through the USGA, the average handicap for men in the US in 2021 was 14.1.  544,712 female golfers who kept a handicap through the USGA, the average handicap index among women was 27.7. (source USGA)

[Matt MacIver]

I made a 3 on a 480y par 5 yesterday, hitting my 5w 200 yards to an uphill pin and making the 8ft putt.  Very satisfying - my playing partners were ecstatic for my eagle and after my “par is just a number” protestations, I was too.


Interestingly, it was #17 and the second easiest on the back per the handicap — probably because of the distance and since it was a par 5.  #16 was the second hardest and #18 was the hardest — so I think maybe management didn’t want the three hardest holes on the back all in a row and at the end. 

[Rob Marshall]

Some data on average distance for driver & other clubs.

Among the 2,305, 672 of male golfers who kept a handicap through the USGA, the average handicap for men in the US in 2021 was 14.1.  544,712 female golfers who kept a handicap through the USGA, the average handicap index among women was 27.7. (source USGA)

Pierre, in the top graph is that total distance or carry distance?

[Pierre C]

Hi Rob,

The data is supplied by Arccos, so its likely total yardage. Chart is from GD article - https://www.golfdigest.com/story/what-the-latest-data-reveals-about-average-golfers--driving-dist

below is the selection criteria for the data.

Arccos 2021 Distance Report

How player data selected

• In a calendar year, a player needed to hit at least 60 shots WITH DRIVER.
• There were 29,466,594 total shots hit in the data set (4.7M in 2019, 9.1M in 2020, 15.7M in 2021)

• For each player, we calculated the median distance with driver for that calendar year.

• We then looked at the median distance across all players at the player level, not the shot level

• At the player level, the median was used to limit the impact of any outliers. If a data set is relatively consistent, a calculated average can work. However, given a less uniform data set, the median mitigates the impact of outliers (ex. Player “tops” a tee shot that travels only 20 yards).

• The 20th and 80th percentiles were used simply to give an idea of how far a “longer” hitter hits the ball (80th percentile) and how far a shorter hitter hits the ball (20th). A player in the 80th percentile is longer than 80% of all players.

• 
  (sourced: https://mygolfspy.com/news-opinion/arccos-2021-distance-report/)

  
  
  Some data on average distance for driver & other clubs.
  
  Among the 2,305, 672 of male golfers who kept a handicap through the USGA, the average handicap for men in the US in 2021 was 14.1.  544,712 female golfers who kept a handicap through the USGA, the average handicap index among women was 27.7. (source USGA)
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  
  Pierre, in the top graph is that total distance or carry distance?
  

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
The average golfer will almost 100% of the time be playing any 480 hole as a par five unless they are playing the wrong tees     And for most golfers, it will be a three shot hole (a few will hit two exceptional shots and reach the hole in two).   As you say, I love variety and have zero problem with holes of this length but even today, in the world of 300+ yard drives, you won’t ever find this length hole listed on the score card as a par four except from maybe the absolute tips but that is just fine for most golfers. 

[Jim_Coleman]

    Those distance stats are pretty much what one might expect. At least they’re not surprising to me. I wonder what they would have been 50 or 100 years ago. The answer might shed light on where danger areas (bunkers, water, rough) should be located today in a restoration. I’ll bet that putting them where the danger areas were decades ago would challenge today’s weaker golfers but not the stronger ones.

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,
The average golfer will almost 100% of the time be playing any 480 hole as a par five unless they are playing the wrong tees     And for most golfers, it will be a three shot hole (a few will hit two exceptional shots and reach the hole in two).   As you say, I love variety and have zero problem with holes of this length but even today, in the world of 300+ yard drives, you won’t ever find this length hole listed on the score card as a par four except from maybe the absolute tips but that is just fine for most golfers.

Exactly my thoughts,

In all my years I've playing, I've never encountered a par 4 longer than 440-450 from the middle/white tees.

I always loved this distance because it usually gave me a reasonable chance at par with an occasional shot at birdie!

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