[Kevin_Keeley]

I've been invited to play Del Paso in Sacramento and did some research because my host said they are looking to spend $10 million to redo it. Then I found out it's a Hebert Fowler course.

Is this so and does it have any of his touch remaining? Was it ever top notch? They did once host a US Women's Open, so it must have something special about it.
KK

[Joel_Stewart]

Do you mean restore it or re-do it?

[Joel_Stewart]

This was the information on golfcourse.com,

"This course has many trees and thick vegetation lining its fairways. It was built on rolling hills. There is one creek and one lake that come into play on six holes. This course has been redesigned several times this century, the latest by Gary Roger Baird in 1981 and Robert Muir Graves in 1985."

The architect is listed as John Black in 1915?  

[Mindy]

I've been invited to play Del Paso in Sacramento and did some research because my host said they are looking to spend $10 million to redo it. Then I found out it's a Hebert Fowler course.

Is this so and does it have any of his touch remaining? Was it ever top notch? They did once host a US Women's Open, so it must have something special about it.
KK

[Mindy]

Actually, yes there is a lot left of what Fowler originally designed, the whole course. We have a greater number of trees and underbruch that are being slowly thinned, however the redesign info is all worng. Baird came up with a master plan that only enhanced and added bunkers to the course. The members never fully encompassed his whole plan. Graves on provided a guideline for the irrigation system. No one has truely tried to even touch a redesign until now and Kyle Phillips is trying to do just that. It is something, and to play it would be step back into a time when art and nature came together to form a test of golf in a park like setting. However, I may be a bit bias, I am a member who happens to be on the green committee. Mindy

[Mindy]

Ok, now for all of you historians or history buffs out there, I am searching for any information that I can get on Herbert Fowler, specifically what brought him to California, besides Del Paso or LA CC. and how long did he stay and when did he return to England? or I will take anything I can get me hands on abot Fowler. Thanks for the help, Mindy

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mindy,
-What type of historical information is Kyle Phillips working off of?
-Is he working off of old photos?
-What type of historical documentation does the club have? --Is he making changes in strategy to the original design or is he just saying he is going to remodel the holes to look like a older classic course?
-What is the actual feelings of the green committee regarding the course? Do they want it exactly like it was? Do they want holes changed. Are there opposing factions of green committee members and the actual members of the club?

[T_MacWood]

Del Paso is a Fowler golf course--he referred to it as Sacramento.

[Mindy]

Kyle Phillips did not begin working off of the original maps and some old photos that we have at Del Paso, he was simply given cart blanche and he took of and came up with an entirely new course design saying that he was doing just as you asked trying to make it look like older classic courses. I thought that is what we have, how much more classic can one get. The green committee has not been asked their opinion yet, that meeting is on Tuesday. However, there is as you suggest a very deep division on the issue, both on the Green Committee and in the membership. Our historical documentation is very extensive and the more I look into the history the more I am convinced that we do not need a "Championship Style" course per Phillips. We need to restore our course per Herbert Fowler.

[Joel_Stewart]

We need to restore our course per Herbert Fowler.

This is great thinking and I'm sure most on this site would agree with you.  You get very few chances to restore a course with someone like Fowlers name attached and your course would get far more attention being a restored Fowler than a Kyle Phillips course.

With that said, I have talked with Kyle a number of times (not about Del Paso) and am trying to think of his rational for blowing up the course with a new routing?  Does the course not have enough land?  You gave him carte blanche with the requirement that it look like an older course.  Is that all that the club asked?

[clifhenry]

I have been close to this project from the first day, so I feel particularly qualified to address some of the issues raised here.

In the first place, the decision to hire Kyle was made after careful consideration of the resumes of several very talented and accomplished architects, and was taken in part because the committee was convinced that he was the guy who most clearly understood that the club was committed to the idea that we wanted to preserve the true spirit of Fowler's design.

Once we identified Kyle's firm as the one we wanted, they (Kyle and his assistant, Mark Thawley) spent hours combing through our archives to gain as thorough and complete an understanding as they could of our history and traditions. They also spent a considerable amount of time and effort researching the work of Herbert Fowler, and were soon able to bring a great deal of new information about him and his work back to a group of people who already thought they were pretty Fowler-knowledgeable. We now know that we had only scratched the surface.

So that I don't put everyone reading this to sleep, I'll try to wrap this up by saying that our needs (in addition to preserving the character of our course) were many. We are dealing with 1) a piece of property that has been cobbled together over a long period of time, meaning that a significant percentage of it is lying unused, 2) a wholly inadequate practice facility that must be enlarged and improved, 3) inadequate parking for our members and their guests that must be expanded and improved, 4) a 90-year-old mat of common bermuda on clay and hardpan that is unacceptable as a playing surface in this day and age, 5) urban encroachment, 6) future water issues, and more, all of which is positively and pro-actively addressed in Phillips' plan for our course.

I believe that we chose the right architect, and that his design is well-conceived and in the best interest of our club's future.

[Joel_Stewart]

Cliff:
Your course like many classic courses has some serious areas of concerns.  I don't fault the club for wanting to modernize areas such as parking and the practice areas.  Wouldn't it be great if all clubs could have a practice areas like Shadow Creeks.

I belong to the Olympic Club in San Francisco and everytime I walk through the locker room I look at the proposed routing from Seth Raynor.  I see a number of other members looking at it and wondering how great it would have been to play the holes he laid out.   The problem I see at Del Paso is that in 10 years from now, how many members will regret tearing up the Fowler course to have another modern non descript course.  If the members want to join a modern course with all the bells and whistles, shouldn't they go join El Dorado or Winchester?  

As much as I like Kyle Phillips I think the club has to be very careful in giving him carte blanche.  He has done some very good work (as well as lousy work - Squaw Creek as an example) but his work and knowledge at restorations might be questionable.  Look at Fazio and Nicklaus in this area as examples.

Good luck with your effort.  I'll end with your club could be well known as the best private club in Sacramento with a restored Fowler course than anything else.

[clifhenry]

Joel,

Thanks for your interest and good wishes.

Obviously there are certain things that must be done as a club ages and evolves: kitchens have to be updated and equipment replaced as it wears out, furniture has to be refurbished or replaced, and so on. Infrastructure has to function in a manner that is relevant to the world as it exists.

That being said, though, I assure you that we're not about to tear up a classic golf course that we all love so that we can build another tricked-up example of what already exists on just about every street corner. We believe Kyle's design is true to the spirit of Fowler's work, and that if built it will be a source of pride to our members for the next three quarters of a century, as this has been.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Cliff,
Your reasons are in tune with a club of your caliber that has little knowledge or clue of classic design. Good luck with your choice--a beautiful new Robert Trent Jones II-like design. It should suit you and your unknowing members well. It also allows guys like us, more reasons to look on the works of other great designers and realize it was the petty bueracracies such as these, that are the reason for their demise.

But fear not. Your not the only one out there like this because 99.9% of the less then notable club's in America are the same.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Cliff,
Also, In an email conversation with one of your other members, it was cited that there is opposition to the Kyle Phillips plan. I responded to this person with honesty and experience of the situation. It was reiterated to me that the situation was almost as if I was a member of Del Paso's green committee.

You can put all of the spin on it you want, but ultimately pleasing the masses, is a hard thing to do.  Iwill also apologize for my harsh reaction, but it is tiresome and of little help, especially if you already have so much knowledge of Herbert Fowler. It would be appreciated if you could share with us your findings.

Mark Thawley is an aquaintence and he's a bright and likable individual. Yet, it surprises me that he didn't seek the help of others who he knows that have more knowledge of the subject.

[T_MacWood]

Courses in the spirit of Ross or in the spirit of MacKenzie or in the spirit of the links are littered all over this country--they are a dime a dozen. Why would anyone want a course in the spirit of Ross, MacKenzie or Fowler, when they can have an authenic Ross, MacKenzie or Fowler?

I'd be especially suspiscious of anyone promising to design a golf course in the spirit of Fowler. I'd suggest they look deeper than the club's archives. For one thing Fowler didn''t design many courses in the US to draw off of. And secondly many of his designs have been altered...the question is what are they basing their 'spirit' upon.  You might think you're getting course in the spirit of Fowler and end up with a course in the spirit of Robert Muir Graves.

[SPDB]

Tommy - Based on your reaction its hard to imagine why more green committees don't come here for insight.  

That guy didn't deserve that. I'm not sure anyone would.

Why not show him the best of GCA, not the worst?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sean,
I have apologized in my second post less then seconds afte I made the prevous one. I have my reasons--because just like Merion and others--no one listens and mistakes are made. It is evident that happened at Merion and others. I have dealt with similar issues at not one but two different CC green committee's here in SoCal that are exactly what is going on at Del Paso, which I explain in the previous post of contact I have had by one of the members. You need to read it more closely.

Tom MacWood hits it right on again, and it is no different then Yale or Merion--stupid decisions that amount to petty beauracracy. There needs to be a point of order--my point is to call them all extremists to their own cause while the original intent to design gets further shredded to pieces. Kyle Phillips like Tosh Belzinger will do an excellent job of making sure of that.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Simply put--its a lost cause.

[A_Clay_Man]

SPBD- I can't speak for Tommy but I do see It really is at the "throwing up your arms" point. NOT appreciating the art of the architecture is, in the long run wasteful. If the green committee needs a crash course in Fowlers art, they should get it first, before making any decision. If they don't have the sense to learn about all the mistakes made in the last fifty years by other clubs, they probably don't have the sense to know that by valuing the art they will add to the bottomline, not to mention the one experienced golfing.

[SPDB]

Tommy -
The problem you fail to (ever) see, is that it is their mistake to make, and the verbal abuse and petty (and, now, as far as it concerns me, personal) sniping isn't going to help disabuse them of their potential error.

Private golf clubs and the courses they own, whether you care to realize it or not, do not exist for your benefit. Maybe Del Paso is making a mistake they don't realize and need to be educated. But do you think for a minute that browbeating is going to make them see the error of their ways. If anything, you just probably cemented this particular green committeman from ever relying on GCA as a useful, friendly  resource. With friends like that, who needs enemies?
 
I don't know why constantly feel the need to personalize the whole process. You are an intelligent person who has probably forgotten more about golf architecture than I'll ever know. But instead of using it in a positive way to educate others, you stand on it like a soapbox and insult others. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

I'll tell Tosh you send your love.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sean, I just went and accidently erased a Paulian-length diatribe and I'm not going to re-type it. Re-read allof the posts all of the way thourgh, clearly.

If you think that Ciiff will be a positive particpant on GCA, forget it. I will guarantee you that his comments will likely go no further then this thread. He has too many other things to get done like assessing the members for parking lots, kitchen equipment and Kyle P's work. He's played all of Kyle's courses in the Sacramento area, and he can't wait for it to look exactly like Granite Bay and others. It won't look like Fowler's. He doesn't care about Fowler other then to use it as a tool for Kyle P. to ge the work.

I know the type. He's trying to stifle Mindy's quests for information to further his cause. Let him invite you when he is done, and you guys can enjoy his RTJII-like course together. It won't be Fowler's underneath it all anymore.

[Mindy]

Hello all, I appreciate all of your comments. I am still looking for information regarding the life and times of "Bill" Herbert Fowler and thank you for pointing me in the direction of the other courses.

Cliff, perhaps you and I should have a private conversation?

Mindy

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Go get'em Mindy!

[ForkaB]

Mindy

If you haven't already, you might try contacting Russell Talley, an archie who knows Walton Heath pretty well, and has possibly seen more of Fowler's designs in person that any of the other "experts" on this thread have even read about or seen pictures of.  His e-mail is rtalley@egd.com.  Apologies in advance, Russell, for using your name.

Also, your own advice of have a private tete-a-tete with Ciff is a great one.  As a completely outside observer, I think that you both have the interests of the club at heart, just different ideas as to how those interests might be best served.

As for all the bashing of Kyle Phillips, we should not forget that he is the creator of Kingsbarns, which is one of the finest new courses of the past 20 years, at least equal in design quality to places such as Pacific Dunes, for example, IMHO.  I would guess that if he is given the proper overall guidance he will do a fine job for your club.

Good luck, and sorry for MY intrusion.  Hope it helps.

Rich

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