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Thomas Dai

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18 great holes 250 yds to 300 yds (mens back tees)
« on: March 07, 2021, 05:18:34 AM »
250 yds to 300 yds is a range of holes that somehow seems to get forgotten in the modern era.
What would be 18 great holes within the 250 yds to 300 yds range (mens back tees)?
I can think of some but shall wait a while to give others the opportunity to nominate in the first instance.

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18

If a thread akin to this has been raised before could someone please highlight the previous relevant thread.
atb

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: 18 great holes 250 yds to 300 yds (mens back tees)
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2021, 06:57:43 AM »
Not sure if these are really great.
16th @ Prestwick
17th @ Ganton
14th @ Gleneagles Kings (might be longer than 300 off the left side tee and from there it is not great)


I thought of some others but they are not really 'great'. It almost needs something very penal running up one side.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Bill Shamleffer

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Re: 18 great holes 250 yds to 300 yds (mens back tees)
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2021, 07:07:49 AM »
18th Normandie GC, St. Louis, Mo.  -  250 yds; par 3
“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Jonathan Cummings

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Re: 18 great holes 250 yds to 300 yds (mens back tees)
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2021, 07:21:34 AM »
Hard to beat the 10th at Riv.  Could be argued it's the greatest short 4 in the world.  What a range of scores you could have - all without losing a ball.


The 8th at PVGC is another one although it is less known.  Like Riv's 10 the second shot at PVGC 8 is about as delicate as you can get.

Mark_Fine

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Re: 18 great holes 250 yds to 300 yds (mens back tees)
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2021, 07:25:37 AM »
Thomas,
Why only the back tees?  My guess is very few of us play those tees so how would we know the hole is great from back there.  I can name hundreds that are great from that distance from other tees!!  The 4th at Pebble Beach.  What a great hole from 275 yards!!!


Johathan,
Two great holes but according to Thomas they don’t qualify


Tom_Doak

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Re: 18 great holes 250 yds to 300 yds (mens back tees)
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2021, 07:31:45 AM »
JC:  Those are both great holes, but both over 300 yards!


I've built a few holes in Australia and New Zealand that would be contenders:
2 St Andrews Beach
4 Barnbougle Dunes
7 Tara Iti
14 St Andrews Beach
17 The National (Gunnamatta)


Oddly, I have yet to build a single par-4 in the USA that didn't get to 300 yards from the back tee.  Clients here always want the extra length.  I think it's easier to build these holes in places where they measure in meters so that nobody worries about the 300 threshold!

Ira Fishman

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Re: 18 great holes 250 yds to 300 yds (mens back tees)
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2021, 07:35:04 AM »
1 Brora
3 Swinley Forest

5 Golspie
7 The Island Club
9 Crail Balcomie
10 Elie
13 Lahinch
15 Nairn
17 Kilspindie
18 North Berwick


Ira

Thomas Dai

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Re: 18 great holes 250 yds to 300 yds (mens back tees)
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2021, 08:03:01 AM »

Why only the back tees? 

I specified a very specific limitation to encourage folks to think out of the box and maybe do a little research rather than just posting a usual suspect hole.
I also anticipated a comment like Toms "Oddly, I have yet to build a single par-4 in the USA that didn't get to 300 yards from the back tee.  Clients here always want the extra length.  I think it's easier to build these holes in places where they measure in meters so that nobody worries about the 300 threshold!" Ego and vanity and marketing amongst some is not unknown within golf.
atb


PS - 8th at Cruden Bay
« Last Edit: March 07, 2021, 08:04:36 AM by Thomas Dai »

Mark_Fine

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Re: 18 great holes 250 yds to 300 yds (mens back tees)
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2021, 08:10:31 AM »
Thomas,
It is your thread, but I think it is actually more out of the box to thinking to list holes that would be great from this distance that have tees far longer.  If you played the 10th at Riviera from the back tees, you might never know how much greater the hole might be if you played from the 260 yard tee just like the 4th at Pebble (which also doesn't qualify).  But to keep with your thread and to make Mike Malone happy, the 10th at Rolling Green!

Tim Martin

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Re: 18 great holes 250 yds to 300 yds (mens back tees)
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2021, 08:29:03 AM »
1. Vesper CC  296
2. Hyannisport Club  273
3. Sunnehanna CC  286
4. Misquamicut Club  272
5. Southampton GC  280
6. Huntington Valley CC Black  275
7. Glens Falls CC  292
8. Merion West  242
9. Sankaty Head  289

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: 18 great holes 250 yds to 300 yds (mens back tees)
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2021, 10:14:24 AM »

18 North Berwick


Ira
I thought of that one but I also thought it is a very average hole....almost the worst if not one of the worst at NB.
GREAT I suppose will have different meanings.


The more I think about this the more I think they are very rare as the don't really exist on the better golf courses. Holes like the 3rd and 4th at Painswick, probs even 16 are GREAT holes for me. All are great lookers. 1st at Thurlestone perhaps. There are NONE on any of the Open Rota's. Sunningdale has the 9th but again it is pretty poor.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

jeffwarne

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Re: 18 great holes 250 yds to 300 yds (mens back tees)
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2021, 10:17:21 AM »
JC:  Those are both great holes, but both over 300 yards!


I've built a few holes in Australia and New Zealand that would be contenders:
2 St Andrews Beach
4 Barnbougle Dunes
7 Tara Iti
14 St Andrews Beach
17 The National (Gunnamatta)


Oddly, I have yet to build a single par-4 in the USA that didn't get to 300 yards from the back tee.  Clients here always want the extra length.  I think it's easier to build these holes in places where they measure in meters so that nobody worries about the 300 threshold!


Not yet..
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tom_Doak

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Re: 18 great holes 250 yds to 300 yds (mens back tees)
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2021, 10:31:09 AM »
JC:  Those are both great holes, but both over 300 yards!


I've built a few holes in Australia and New Zealand that would be contenders:
2 St Andrews Beach
4 Barnbougle Dunes
7 Tara Iti
14 St Andrews Beach
17 The National (Gunnamatta)


Oddly, I have yet to build a single par-4 in the USA that didn't get to 300 yards from the back tee.  Clients here always want the extra length.  I think it's easier to build these holes in places where they measure in meters so that nobody worries about the 300 threshold!


Not yet..


True, but we shall have to wait and see whether Zac can resist the temptation to build a tee at 310 to make it harder on Tony Finau.

Tom_Doak

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Re: 18 great holes 250 yds to 300 yds (mens back tees)
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2021, 10:34:50 AM »

The more I think about this the more I think they are very rare as the don't really exist on the better golf courses. Holes like the 3rd and 4th at Painswick, probs even 16 are GREAT holes for me. All are great lookers. 1st at Thurlestone perhaps. There are NONE on any of the Open Rota's. Sunningdale has the 9th but again it is pretty poor.


Adrian:


There are few short par-4's on most of The Open rota courses because the powers that be are obsessed with length and defending par, and the trickle down effect of that has ruined lots of interesting holes in the process.  However The Old Course has a ton of par-4's that are very short, just not quite under 300 yards.  The 9th and 10th and 12th have all been driven many times.

jeffwarne

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Re: 18 great holes 250 yds to 300 yds (mens back tees)
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2021, 10:35:42 AM »
JC:  Those are both great holes, but both over 300 yards!


I've built a few holes in Australia and New Zealand that would be contenders:
2 St Andrews Beach
4 Barnbougle Dunes
7 Tara Iti
14 St Andrews Beach
17 The National (Gunnamatta)


Oddly, I have yet to build a single par-4 in the USA that didn't get to 300 yards from the back tee.  Clients here always want the extra length.  I think it's easier to build these holes in places where they measure in meters so that nobody worries about the 300 threshold!


Not yet..


True, but we shall have to wait and see whether Zac can resist the temptation to build a tee at 310 to make it harder on Tony Finau.


LOL-That ship sailed at 340 for Finau
Harder is between 3 wood and driving iron for him
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tom_Doak

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Re: 18 great holes 250 yds to 300 yds (mens back tees)
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2021, 10:45:36 AM »

True, but we shall have to wait and see whether Zac can resist the temptation to build a tee at 310 to make it harder on Tony Finau.

LOL-That ship sailed at 340 for Finau
Harder is between 3 wood and driving iron for him


LOL - that's why I said 310.

Mark_Fine

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Re: 18 great holes 250 yds to 300 yds (mens back tees)
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2021, 10:53:11 AM »
One of my favorite courses has three of them on the front nine alone - Myopia Hunt Club - #1, #3 and #6.  Are they great holes?  All subjective.  As I said, I can think of hundreds that might be better but unfortunately have further back tees.  We talked about the 17th at TPC at Scottsdale but it doesn't qualify.  Nor does the 10th at Merion  :'(  But once again, those shorter tees/options exist but for some reason golfers don't count them.  Why??  I have never really understood that.  It would be like Riviera adding a tee at 420 yards for #10.  They don't have the room but would it ruin the hole and no longer be talked about as one of the greatest short par fours?  Why must holes be judged from the tips (or at least some courses) ??? :'(

Tom_Doak

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Re: 18 great holes 250 yds to 300 yds (mens back tees)
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2021, 11:01:45 AM »
One of my favorite courses has three of them on the front nine alone - Myopia Hunt Club - #1, #3 and #6.  Are they great holes?  All subjective.  As I said, I can think of hundreds that might be better but unfortunately have further back tees.  We talked about the 17th at TPC at Scottsdale but it doesn't qualify.  Nor does the 10th at Merion  :'(  But once again, those shorter tees/options exist but for some reason golfers don't count them.  Why??  I have never really understood that.  It would be like Riviera adding a tee at 420 yards for #10.  They don't have the room but would it ruin the hole and no longer be talked about as one of the greatest short par fours?  Why must holes be judged from the tips (or at least some courses) ??? :'(


So, it sounds like (a) you have never built a hole under 300 yards from the back tee, and (b) you haven't seen as many cool golf courses as you pretend, since others have managed to nominate a lot of candidates for this thread.

Ira Fishman

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Re: 18 great holes 250 yds to 300 yds (mens back tees)
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2021, 11:17:44 AM »

18 North Berwick


Ira
I thought of that one but I also thought it is a very average hole....almost the worst if not one of the worst at NB.
GREAT I suppose will have different meanings.

Adrian,


I agree that on a course chock full of terrific holes, 18 is far from the best. But the green complex and green contours are quite good plus I am a sucker for rumpled fairways—they are pretty rare in the US.


Ira

Mark_Fine

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Re: 18 great holes 250 yds to 300 yds (mens back tees)
« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2021, 11:21:28 AM »
Tom,
I have played most of those mentioned and added three candidates from one course - Myopia Hunt Club.  How about #8 at Oakmont. That is a great one but who plays it from 295 yards?  Why do we have to judge courses from the tips. Have you seen some of the back tees they put in at Oakmont?  Wow.  I would bet no one here has played them all.  Even the pros don’t go that far back.  So why would we judge the holes from the tips?

Ira,
I always think of the 18th at The Old Course when I play the 18th at North Berwick.  The road and buildings to the right scare me on both. 


I played with a magazine panelist from GM one time and he complained that the 3rd hole at Lehigh was too long of a par three (235 yards).  I said really?  Go play a shorter tee like the one at 165 yards if 235 is too much for you. Geez!

How long is the #1 hole at The National?  Probably doesn’t qualify does it?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2021, 11:32:17 AM by Mark_Fine »

James Reader

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Re: 18 great holes 250 yds to 300 yds (mens back tees)
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2021, 11:21:42 AM »
3 at Cavendish

Mark_Fine

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Re: 18 great holes 250 yds to 300 yds (mens back tees)
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2021, 11:34:09 AM »
Tom,
And actually I did design and build a 265 yard par four from the back tee at Berkeley CC - an original hole based on the bunkering complex of Hunter.  Forrest and I also re-routed the hole to make it work.  So I guess I am one up on you  ;D   And I am nominating the hole  :D


Forrest and I also designed a 290 yard par four for a new 18 hole design at Colonial CC in MA but it didn’t get built  :'(

« Last Edit: March 07, 2021, 11:38:06 AM by Mark_Fine »

jeffwarne

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Re: 18 great holes 250 yds to 300 yds (mens back tees)
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2021, 11:37:02 AM »
9 and 11 at Dunaverty


So many great holes in this range in the Uk where that distance is available because not worried about calling it par 3 and being too hard/unreachable..
and not subject as a par 4 to my modern pet peeve of always an impossible green or penal or so severe that a layup into a divot infested area is the only reasonable play.


When we shortened our 17th hole from 380 to 280(to eliminate a(nother) 70 yard backward uphill climb, one of the things I'm most proud of is that there are no areas on the hole that get more divots than others, where there are enough options coupled with fairway width/depth and internal bunkering  to avoid one obvious choice if not going for the green.(which nearly all members can't reach at 280 uphill so the hole better be interesting otherwise)
It also helps there was a cool "teepee" green which is better approached from a certain side depending upon which side the pin is on
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Robert Mercer Deruntz

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Re: 18 great holes 250 yds to 300 yds (mens back tees)
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2021, 11:58:48 AM »
The 7th at Engineers is an absolute great drivable par 4 of 292 yards.  The hole is probably 5 feet downhill, but you hit to a 40 yard wide fairway 30 feet below and then up 25 feet to a tiny punchbowl green with very deep bunkers on the sides and back.  There is a false front that if hit, will result in ball rolling back down 30 yards.  In tournaments among good players, the hole plays over par, but the players who resist the temptation to go for the green tend to average under par.  The plus is that if you do hit the green, your eagle putt should be less than 15 feet.  In 1999 I recovered from a terrible putting start by making a one foot eagle and advanced to another US Open sectional with the momentum change.  A few years later in match play, my birdie lost the hole, and my opponent birdied the next 5 holes.  Conversely, the group behind had an up and down 5 win the hole. 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2021, 11:18:24 PM by Robert Mercer Deruntz »

Mark_Fine

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Re: 18 great holes 250 yds to 300 yds (mens back tees)
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2021, 12:24:27 PM »
One I enjoy (been a while since I played it) is #5 at Cuscowilla - 299 yard par four.  I am sure if I had time to look through my scorecards, there must be some Weiskopf/Morrish courses with holes from the tips in this range.  They were leaders in the push for short fours. 


#9 at Cypress is one of my favorites and #7 at The Olympic Club is pretty good as well.  Both under 300 from the tips. 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2021, 12:32:19 PM by Mark_Fine »

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