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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Winter Tour 2019-20: Saucy ST GERMAIN New
« on: March 18, 2020, 02:01:27 PM »


The tony suburb of St Germain en Laye is tucked within a large loop of the Seine twelve or so miles from the centre of Paris and adjacent to the national forest which shares its name. Having been the residence of many French monarchs prior to the French Revolution, St Germain is a city of historical repute.  In 1688 James II of England sought refuge in the city when he was deposed from the throne during the Glorious Revolution.  Signed in 1919, the Treaty St Germain officially broke up the Hapsburg Empire, thus creating the independent states of Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia and what became Yugoslavia.  Not long after this treaty was signed, the forward-thinking members of Golf de l’Ermitage obtained the rights to 128 acres from the Forest of St Germain and called in HS Colt to design a completely new course for the club.  However, the members wished to retain the old clubhouse and had it transported to the new location! 

The original course didn’t last long.  The club acquired more land and instructed Colt to make changes to the design. After the redesign there were pockets of land which Colt developed into a 9-hole course featuring several short par 4s.  The two courses remain largely as Colt envisioned with the likely exception of substantial tree growth.  It is on the Grand Parcours that 9 French Opens were contested.  The winners of this tournament at St Germain include George Duncan, Bobby Locke and Sandy Lyle.  It is fitting that the last time (1985) the French Open was hosted by St Germain the incomparable Seve Ballesteros took home first prize and did so in style with a course record 62.





The centre piece of wall covered memorabilia is a series of Ben Hogan photos during a 1956 visit.  Despite the course suffering  terrible damage by occupying German forces, after the D-Day landings General Eisenhower played St Germain on a regular basis with other high ranking military officers.  American forces didn't leave until 1967 after President De Gaulle gave the order for all foreign military to withdraw from France.  The photos may be from a European trip Hogan made to play in the Canada Cup at Wentworth. Hogan teamed up with Sam Snead and the pair destroyed the field by 14 shots enroute to victory with Hogan taking home the individual honours. 





The course from the daily tees is about 6400 yards and features a very good mix of hole lengths.  Dead straight, the opener is in no way special, but with OOB down the right, many will feel trepidation on the tee.  The short 3 shotter second highlights two factors.  First, St Germain is not short of bunkers...there are about 116!  Second, trees visually block many bunkers or otherwise diminish their impact.  Below is the approach after a layup second and a closer look at the angled green.




There is an often repeated theme of property boundaries or heavily tree-lined fairways playing an important role at St Germain. On the 3rd a disused railway line runs the length of the right side to a false front green.  We now cross the tracks for the very difficult 4th, a par four of about 445 yards. 


The huge right greenside bunker is engeniously built into the next tee.


I have never seen a Colt course with quite so much mounding.  The shaping isn't the high quality usually associated with Colt and Frank Bros, however, there is definitely a playfulness about the work which is great fun.  The 5th is perhaps one of the extreme examples of St Germain shaping.  This short hole presents like an all carry hole, but this isn't the case.  Indeed, it may be wise to lay-up!






In similar fashion to the 5th at Mildenhall, the green is sneaky narrow.


More to follow.

Ciao
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 03:54:41 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Greg Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter Tour 2019-20: ST GERMAIN
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2020, 02:14:26 PM »
I am thoroughly excited to see this one on your Tour.  It's one of my favorite courses in Europe, and certainly my favorite in France (despite the thick forest).   Colt's routing is ingenious, and the dirt he did move shows off his talent to make something from nothing on a flat site.
O fools!  who drudge from morn til night
And dream your way of life is wise,
Come hither!  prove a happier plight,
The golfer lives in Paradise!                      

John Somerville, The Ballade of the Links at Rye (1898)

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter Tour 2019-20: ST GERMAIN (1-5)
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2020, 02:38:50 PM »
Looking forward to the rest of the tour Sean. When I played here last summer I was blown away by the cool and deceptive nature of the shaping around the green complexes. With all the mounding and bunkering "up" at the front it is really hard to understand the depth of the greens and how bad the fall offs are going to be on the sides, like you noted in your last pic


reste en bonne sante
stay healthy





Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter Tour 2019-20: ST GERMAIN (1-5) New
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2020, 07:03:07 AM »
ST GERMAIN TOUR CONT

Swinging right, back along the railway line, the long 6th is one of several holes with bunkers very near to the tee.  On a few holes these bunkers look good, but I am puzzled by their placement.  It strikes me that there isn't a single example which add to the strategic value of the design.  The bunkers are either of the carry type or on the wings.  In either case, even for poor golfers, finding oneself in a bunker of this sort is the result of a cruddy shot. I am all in favour of making tee shots for less capable players require some challenge, however, there should be a bit more care concerning the physical and mental impact of such bunkers.


This scene leaves me lost for words!


Back over the tracks for the short 7th.  Almost everybody on the planet has at least heard of the Rolling Stones and the same number of people will be familiar with the rebellious tongue logo associated with the band.  Ignoring the obvious visual similarities, the 7th is a very cool hole with an outrageous false front...a feature I am pleased to report has survived modern green heights.  Imagine this set piece without the extraneous trees!




The inspiration for the tongue logo?


A view back to the tee reveals the tightly packed layout.  The 3rd is right and the 11 left. 

A very thorny hole, like the 2nd, the 8th slopes heavily and deceptively away from the centre of the fairway.  After seeing the 345 listed yards and shape of the dogleg, many will choose to lay up.  This strategy brings the right bunker into play as the land feeds to this area. One can readily see the attractive textures of the course.


The approach is funneled by mounding either side of the fairway.  For those familiar with Colt, predictably, there is more ground between the bunkers and green than it appears.


A short par 5, the 9th isn't notable, but we do get an alluring look at the house. 


A very good hole, the 10th may be more fun to play from the 275 yard red tees.  There is nothing like temptation to act as the Waterloo for the undisciplined golfer. 




More to follow.

Ciao
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 04:03:37 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter Tour 2019-20: ST GERMAIN (1-10)
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2020, 09:28:07 AM »
Touche ;)
Let's make GCA grate again!

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter Tour 2019-20: ST GERMAIN (1-10)
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2020, 09:39:44 AM »
Looks interesting but rather in need of a visit by some of Mr Stahl's equipment and a few days bunker work by a shaper. Or am I being unkind?
atb

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter Tour 2019-20: ST GERMAIN (1-10) New
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2020, 06:42:01 AM »
Mr Stahl would be a god send!  With all the cool mounding and bunkering it would be great to see it from different holes. 

ST GERMAIN TOUR CONT

Another very good short hole, the 11th is somewhat spoiled by the massive green hulks in the background.  It is interesting that all four par 3s are carry holes.  Colt seems to have relished designing these type of holes.   


Given the disruption to the rhythm of golf the green to tee walks create, I would like to have been a fly on the wall when the the choice of crossing the rail line four times rather than two was discussed.   Over the tracks to the 12th, a rather undistinguised hole.  There is something about these far holes which seem different from the holes closer to the house.  It could be as simple as more space to lay out holes; the far holes certainly feel less intimate.  A short par 4, the 13th seem to play much longer than the card suggests and it is dead straight.  All the fun comes at the green end of the design.  Like a few other holes, the green is smartly pinched. 


A legger left, #14 is a terrific hole...I wish more temptation was introduced offering a view of the green down the left.  As it is, carrying the left bunker leaves an approach from the rough with tree branches interfering. 


Maintaining bunkers isn't cheap!  That said, the course was in excellent nick.  I was incredibly impressed with the state of the fairways and greens.   




Another excellent greensite created from nothing.


A view from the rear of the green reminds me of work at Oxford, Edgbaston and Harborne.


The final three-shotter is my favourite.  For a hole which is straight and flat there is a lot going on.  There are areas of the fairway which have Simpson-like scraping to create a bit of  undulation.  I fail to understand why this sort of shaping isn't done more often.


Strangely, up the left side of the fairway there is a large Huntercombeish hollow.


Another, more subtle dip similar to the first photo. Notice the false front.


More to follow.

Ciao
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 04:22:44 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter Tour 2019-20: ST GERMAIN (1-10)
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2020, 11:07:53 AM »
Looks interesting but rather in need of a visit by some of Mr Stahl's equipment and a few days bunker work by a shaper. Or am I being unkind?
atb
I don't think you're being unkind.

Sean, I have always loved Colt's bunkering. Many of the bunkers do not resemble his style: ie the oval bunkers. Do you know what was done to them?
« Last Edit: March 27, 2020, 07:19:57 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter Tour 2019-20: ST GERMAIN (1-15) New
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2020, 06:07:01 AM »
Tommy

I saw some old photos on the house walls, the bunkers set in the high green pads look similar today.  In any case, whacking trees has to be the number one priority...then take a view as to the other stuff.

ST GERMAIN TOUR CONT

St Germain is an exceedingly flat site, which makes the 16th a welcome surprise.  Another short two-shotter, this hole plays through a valley. 


We now cross the tracks for the 4th and final time to play a par three.  Unfortunately, a new tee was being built so a temporary green was in play and a very sporting green at that!


The Lilliputian green.


Looking toward the tee.


I played the 18th from the forward tees close to the temporary green which offer a different angle tee shot.  One gets a glimpse of the 10th hole bunkers in the far distance.  A good handful of such views could be opened up with tree removal.


The green is similar to the 13th in that it has a bit of a runway approach with pinched sides.


Thus ends what many consider one of the best courses in France and Europe.  There is no question that hints of the London heathlands are apparent here and there and this lends an element of charm to a round at St Germain.  Although, I would say the club is lagging behind the major London clubs in terms of tree clearance.  I would also say the patented 5 hour French round is sadly very much in evidence!  There are many holes of high quality, but none which stand out as exceptional.  Not surpisingly, the set of short holes is good, if a bit similar in that aerial golf is predominant and the spread is only about 40  yards.  Yet, somehow St Germain comes together as a lovely day out and a perfect getaway from the throngs of Paris.  The walk is comfortable, there is plenty of good golf to keep one engaged and the house is handsome.  While the sights of Paris are a strong pull, I often find visiting a local club is an interesting cultural experience and St Germain is an exceptional example of such.

The town too is attractive and would make a good base should folks on a golf tour not wish to stay in Paris.  The commute is about an hour from Paris by public transport, the bus stop (conveniently called Le Golf) is directly in front of the club gates. For any who do spend time in the St Germain area, it is also worth considering nearby Le Vesinet as a base or at the very least take a stroll around town.  The residential architecture is a sight to behold and one of the most impressive attractions of this recent trip.  1*  2020





Previous Stops on the 2019-20 Winter Tour

Temple
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37725.0.html

Burnham & Berrow Channel
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,62038.0.html

East Devon
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,68017.0.html

Warren
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,68013.0.html

Gullane #3
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67899.0.html

Nefyn
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67656.0.html

Harlech
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33937.0.html

Tadmarton Heath
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,26579.msg497818.html#msg497818

Notts
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33988.msg1137972.html#msg1137972

Alnmouth Village
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65709.0.html

Planned Stops

Tandridge
Kington
Cleeve Cloud

Ciao
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 04:11:17 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter Tour 2019-20: ST GERMAIN
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2020, 07:31:09 AM »
Splendid tour as ever. Well done.
Looks to be a rather fine and enjoyable course yet one with potentially so much more to offer, five hour rounds apart that is.
Atb

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter Tour 2019-20: ST GERMAIN
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2020, 12:23:04 PM »
Sean,
Thanks for doing this tour. I really enjoyed my visit to St Germain, and didn't experience any pace of play issues. It felt very much like a London heathland environment to me. The views on the course could be much better with fewer trees, but at least for the most part I didn't feel like trees had a big impact on play. Still, getting rid of trees would make the presentation so much better.

Agree with your observation on the shaping work done on the 15th fairway, adding interest at little cost. I see your point about the quality of some of the mound shaping, but believe it all works pretty well.

I think the multiple crossings of the rail bed were needed so both 9s return to the clubhouse. The extra walking isn't ideal, but also not so far as to be disruptive. I also liked the somewhat intimate arrangement for 3/7/10/11 greens to add variety compared the isolation on other holes.


Clyde Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter Tour 2019-20: ST GERMAIN
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2020, 05:20:13 PM »
Thanks for the tour Sean. If ever a golf course was in need of a polish...!?


Do you know who built it for Colt?

Stuart Hallett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter Tour 2019-20: ST GERMAIN
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2020, 07:12:33 AM »

Thanks Sean.
A great tour of a course dear to my heart, having spent several years working there, and still now in another role for minor changes (17th tees for example).


I was particularly interested in your observations (you have a good eye), and questions. Most of which can be explained by the initial 18 hole layout, and the changes made to add the 9 hole course.


For information, trees have been coming down in large numbers since the storm of 2000. Imagine what it looked like before. I agree that more trees should follow. It's an ongoing job, and overlooked by the forestry authorities, not always easy to do what you want. 

Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter Tour 2019-20: Saucy ST GERMAIN
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2020, 04:21:48 PM »

Sean--


Thank you very much for posting this and bringing back some great memories of my visits to St. Germain.  It's been my argument for a long time that GdeSt.G is the hidden gem of the World and one of rare truly great courses on flat ground (Kingston Heath and Chicago Golf are in this group).  What I had forgotten from my first visit to second is the interest in the greens.  The contouring is so thoughtful and well done.  The routing is superb and the par 3s as a set are outstanding.  It's interesting looking at the pictures is how St.G is able to appear to have movement even when it does not.  I love how the bunkers are carved out of mounds to create this look. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter Tour 2019-20: ST GERMAIN
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2020, 05:20:33 AM »
I think the multiple crossings of the rail bed were needed so both 9s return to the clubhouse. The extra walking isn't ideal, but also not so far as to be disruptive.

I'm not critical of the decision, just interested in the decision making process especially as someone who holds no special regard for equal 9 holes returning to the house. I much prefer a balance of 6/12, 5/13 or 4/14.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter Tour 2019-20: ST GERMAIN
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2020, 07:46:14 AM »
Thanks for the tour Sean. If ever a golf course was in need of a polish...!?

Do you know who built it for Colt?

Sorry Clyde, I just noticed your post. No, I don't know who built the course.  I suspect a club big wig took charge and sorted it all out. 

I must say, its lovely that a few rarely seen folks in the business popped up on this thread.  It makes me think there is more to the course.

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 13, 2020, 02:55:52 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Tom Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter Tour 2019-20: Saucy ST GERMAIN
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2020, 07:17:16 AM »
Thanks for the tour, I think you sum it very well.


My understanding is that other than the 2nd hole bunkering and the obvious tree growth, the rest of the course (bunkers and greens etc) is virtually untouched from Colt's days?



With this in mind, I'd agree with your feeling that some of the shaping feels different to Colt's London heathland work at Sunningdale etc. But I came away thinking that it feels very similar to Copt Heath in shaping and bunker style, although more compact and with more interesting and bold green complexes? At Copt Heath I also understand old imagines show the original Colt bunkering to be a more simple rounded/oval shape which has been maintained there too, rather than the more 'ragged' edge often associated with Colt and other 'golden age' architects?


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter Tour 2019-20: Saucy ST GERMAIN
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2020, 04:30:37 AM »
Tom

I think Copt Heath is getting some work done, but I don't know the scope of it. I recall not being overly enthusiastic about the bunker scheme and thought it very unusual for a Colt project. I am not one to get worked up about bunker style unless things have gone badly wrong from the originals, but my memory is the same as yours. The bunkers were a bit lifeless. I may have to revisit Copt Heath.

Anyway, so far as I can tell, the St Germain bunkers look similar to old photos...nothing special except for the ones dug into green pads.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter Tour 2019-20: Saucy ST GERMAIN
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2020, 09:27:44 AM »
edit c+++
« Last Edit: April 14, 2020, 09:31:55 AM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter Tour 2019-20: Saucy ST GERMAIN
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2020, 09:32:27 AM »
double drat...
« Last Edit: April 14, 2020, 09:34:59 AM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter Tour 2019-20: Saucy ST GERMAIN
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2020, 11:34:52 AM »
Thanks for sharing, its one I've wanted to see in more detail for a while. 

MM
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter Tour 2019-20: Saucy ST GERMAIN
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2020, 11:38:23 AM »
Sean -

Thanks for another fine tour. In addition to the course, I do like the look of the clubhouse.

DT

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Winter Tour 2019-20: Saucy ST GERMAIN
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2020, 04:21:43 PM »
Sean -

Thanks for another fine tour. In addition to the course, I do like the look of the clubhouse.

DT

DT

I do as well.

Thanks Mark.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Fraserburgh, Turnberry, Isle of Harris, Benbecula, Askernish, Traigh, St Medan, Hankley Common, Ashridge, Gog Magog Old & Cruden Bay St Olaf

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