[Benjamin Litman]

Mike,


Thanks for proving that my parenthetical is, in fact, not speculation.


I don't have access to other official Parks documents; I just happened upon that particular one in a Google search motivated by your thread. If I find anything else, I'll let you know.


Thanks again,


Benjamin

[Sven Nilsen]

The idea of putting a course in Van Cortlandt Park started in 1894, and seems to have been the brain child of S. Howland Robbins.  From what I can gather Robbins was from New York and played the game at Lenox in Massachusetts and at Morris County.  He seems to have socialized with many of the big names of the era, including August Belmont, who has his own connections to golf in the New York area.

I don't believe I've found any mention of Robbins being involved with the actual 9 hole course that was built in 1895, but the idea to have a course in the public park seems to have germinated with him.

The Sun Oct. 18, 1894 -



The Sun Oct. 22, 1894 -

[Sven Nilsen]

The 9 hole course appears to have been opened in Aug. 1895 (not to say that some play didn't take place earlier as noted by Mike).

Los Angeles Herald Aug. 12, 1895 -

[Sven Nilsen]

One of the better descriptions of the genesis of the course was contained in a May 1899 Golf Magazine article (copied below).  Still no mention of any involvement by Dunn, a name the magazine was very familiar with.

[Sven Nilsen]

Between 1895 and 1899 when Bendelow was hired and started planning his 9 hole addition, there was a smattering of commentary on the course in the press.

One of those articles notes improvements being made in the summer of 1896.  Still no mention of any architects.

The Sun - April 20, 1896

[Sven Nilsen]

Fifty Years of American Golf does contain a chapter on Van Cortlandt and the beginning of public golf courses, but goes into no detail as to who actually laid out the course.  The book quotes the following May 5, 1895 The Sun article regarding the origins of Van Cortlandt, including discussion of a quote of $500 for construction costs, which coincides pretty closely to the Peters amount discussed earlier.

[Sven Nilsen]

One additional follow up comment.  Bendelow's statement noted by Anthony about having he laid the third course in the U.S. was certainly a bit of hyperbole.  It may have been the third course that he knew about.


That being said, most of the early guys had a way of aggrandizing their accomplishments, including Willie Dunn who may have been the most imaginative in this regard.


Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

Here's a brief timeline of Willie Dunn's activities around the time Van Cortlandt was first laid out.


Oct. 1894 - Assisted in arranging plans for Lakewood GC


Nov. 1894 - Mapped out Maidstone


1894/1895 - Laid out Rockaway Hunting Club, working at Shinnecock


June 1895 - Laid out Bayard Cutting's course at Islip


July 1895 - Improving Morris County


1895/1896 - Laid out Wainscott GC


It was noted above that Dunn was already working at Ardsley by May/June of 1895.  There's a March 8, 1896 New York Times article that notes the hiring of Dunn to take charge of the 9 hole course being laid out.

[Sven Nilsen]

If the original 9 holes were laid out by Dunn, the timing would have been a little tight.  The May 19, 1895 The Sun article Mike cited above notes the general lay out of the course, suggesting the general plan was in place.

In the same article, a couple paragraphs below the information regarding Van Cortlandt appeared the following:

[MCirba]

Sven,

Great stuff, thanks.

I did see some late 1895 articles with Dunn going home for the holidays with the work at Ardsley virtually complete and expected to open in the spring of 96.  I suspect given the scope and difficulty of that project that Dunn was around Yonkers quite a bit during 1895.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,

Great stuff, thanks.

I did see some late 1895 articles with Dunn going home for the holidays with the work at Ardsley virtually complete and expected to open in the spring of 96.  I suspect given the scope and difficulty of that project that Dunn was around Yonkers quite a bit during 1895.

Mike:


Could you post those 1895 articles.  The earliest involvement I've seen for him at Ardsley is the 1896 article I noted.


Sven


Edit:  I reread the New York Times article I noted which states he was hired in the fall of 1895.  In any case, this was after the Van Cortlandt course had been designed and built.

[Sven Nilsen]

One quick side note on the course.  In Nov. of 1896 it hosted the first public amateur golf competition in the country (essentially a competition for players that didn't belong to a club).

Buried in the middle of the scores is a W. J. Travis.  This must have taken place shortly after Travis took up the game, and may have been his first tournament.  A rather humble start.

New York Tribune Nov. 29, 1896 -

[MCirba]

Mike:


Could you post those 1895 articles.  The earliest involvement I've seen for him at Ardsley is the 1896 article I noted.


Sven


Edit:  I reread the New York Times article I noted which states he was hired in the fall of 1895.  In any case, this was after the Van Cortlandt course had been designed and built.

Hi Sven,

You're correct, I came across an article where Dunn was first out to survey the property in mid-September 1895.  Soon after he designed Ardsley and by November there was a team of 200 laborers working to cut trees and clear brush, etc.   By the time he left to spend Christmas abroad in late December 1895 it was anticipated the course would open in March or April 1896 and he was going to try to arrange a big match with J.H. Taylor for the opening.

In any case, as mentioned, this was too late to be in the neighborhood for the Van Cortlandt gig.   Which leaves us to consider what he might have been doing prior in 1895 as well as what transpired at VC in terms of who got to play there, which was quite different than perhaps what those prominent men like Pyne and others had hoped at first.

[Sven Nilsen]

His 1895 activities seem to be pretty obvious (at least those that we know about), having returned to the US around the beginning of April and reporting to duty at Shinnecock at some point thereafter.  Reports in April have him laying out a new course for the Country Club at Orange and improving Bayard Cutting's course at Islip  Starting in June or so he began laying out Rockaway Hunting Club (I'm not exactly sure when this happened, but it would have had to have been after he returned from Biarritz) and improving the Morris County course in July.


It is entirely possible that Dunn was one of the experts consulted as noted in the article you posted above regarding what was to be done at Van Cortlandt, but I have seen nothing from 1895 to affirmatively state this was so.  As I noted above, if he was involved it seems odd not for his name to be included in the press.  From the sounds of it, the plans for the course were well under way by the time he came back to the US, and any credit for the initial lay out appears to lie in the hands of the Mosholu crowd, Peters included.



As for who got to play at Van Cortlandt, the articles tell the story of how initially times were set aside for any clubs, with a pretty strong caveat as to the possibility of losing that access if public demand became too much.  And that appears to be exactly what happened.

[MCirba]

Sven,

From the following timeline, Willie Dunn certainly seemed to have adequate time to layout the rather rudimentary 9-hole golf course that was first built at Van Cortlandt in the late spring of 1895. 

From the New York World of April 7, 1895 our man Dunn is already in the states, having come on a recent steamer.



By the time of the May 5th, 1895 New York Sun report it appears that "two estimates" have been already garnered by the group of rich guys who seem to want to have the public land for themselves, not necessarily for the general public and who are petitioning the Park Commission.  Is it possible that one estimate was from Willie Dunn and another from Samuel Tucker?




As of this May 11th NY Press report, still no action is taken as the contractor's estimates haven't been received.   At the bottom of the article however we see the respective experience with golf of the men involved.





Here again is the May 19th NY Sun report once approval was received.




Here again is the June 8th report once some limited play is begun on the new course.  It states that the work began May 20th.




Whether Willie Dunn or Samuel Tucker, or both were involved, this report from November 26, 1896 details the original course.




From most accounts, Willie Dunn seems to have been quite an aggressive self-promoter.   This article from the Mount Vernon NY newspaper "Daily Argus" from April 18th 1903 contains a number of exaggerations and questionable claims.   Unfortunately, I've been unable to find page 4 yet, which may detail more of his "half a thousand" US courses to date.

[MCirba]

One other note...

Not sure if this is a coincidence or not, but you'll note that the finishing (9th) hole at the original Van Cortlandt was 700 yards long.

Later that year, Dunn's course at Ardsley Casino had a 9th hole of 600 yards.

A few years later a hole that Dunn proposed for the Princeton University course was 650 yards, but was shortened by club pro James Swann during construction to a mere 566 yards.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
Second half of the article on pg. 4 is not what you were hoping for.

[Sven Nilsen]

Mike:


If it was anyone else but Dunn, I'd probably be inclined to take them at their word.  But without anything further I'm not so inclined to rely on merely coincidence and supposition.


Sven 

[MCirba]

Sven,

Understood that everything else here is an accumulation of circumstantial evidence but the 1910 article posted first here ran in a number of newspapers and included some details that sounded fairly knowledgable and consistent with everything else known or discovered. 

As one of the Founders of the Mosholu Club was a St.Andrew's guy, I think it's also reasonable to assume that Samuel Tucker helped, possibly at the end of 1895 as the article stated due to agronomy issues I saw noted as having been corrected through re-sodding as mentioned in a spring 1896 article, possibly through a direct contracting with Tucker.

I suspect if Dunn was involved his payment would have come through the payment from the city to Peters and the Mosholu Club.

Again, supposition but there's clearly heavy smoke if not yet a blaze here.

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,

Understood that everything else here is an accumulation of circumstantial evidence but the 1910 article posted first here ran in a number of newspapers and included some details that sounded fairly knowledgable and consistent with everything else known or discovered. 

As one of the Founders of the Mosholu Club was a St.Andrew's guy, I think it's also reasonable to assume that Samuel Tucker helped, possibly at the end of 1895 as the article stated due to agronomy issues I saw noted as having been corrected through re-sodding as mentioned in a spring 1896 article, possibly through a direct contracting with Tucker.

I suspect if Dunn was involved his payment would have come through the payment from the city to Peters and the Mosholu Club.

Again, supposition but there's clearly heavy smoke if not yet a blaze here.

Just as long as we can agree that that heavy smoke might be coming from Willie Dunn's big cigar of lies.


Sven

[MCirba]

Good one Sven, except there's no evidence that Dunn ever lied about VC or even claimed authorship.  All we have is the interesting account from a seeming insider article 15 years after the fact.

Adding to the circumstantial mound of evidence is just that...the comment made by Willie Park going past (presumably on rail) the course in 1895 and commenting about the earthen mounded cop-bunker cross hazards in evidence throughout, asking instead if it was a cemetery and not a golf course.

That comment sounded very similar to the criticisms of Dunn's architectural style by Walter Travis in his American Golfers magazine some years later.

[Sven Nilsen]

Good one Sven, except there's no evidence that Dunn ever lied about VC or even claimed authorship.  All we have is the interesting account from a seeming insider article 15 years after the fact.

Yet you give little credence to another article from only 4 years after the fact that states the course was laid out by a different architect, one with his own connections to the Mosholu crowd.

[MCirba]

I give credence to that one as well and think Samuel Tucker definitely did something in late 1895 as the article mentioned.  He may also have been one of the two estimates from experts earlier.  I'll try to find and post the early spring 1896 article that describes the work that was done over that winter.

[MCirba]

I see some of my articles didn't make the trip very well.   Here's again from NY Sun November 26th, 1896. 






Here's an April 21, 1896 NY Times article talking about ongoing improvements to the course I mentioned yesterday.




Finally, just for fun, here's a pretty cool article on the original Ardsley 1895 course by Willie Dunn.   Looks like a death-defying first few holes.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Van Cortlandt -1900
2 clicks for big photo


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