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Thomas Dai

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Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-15
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2015, 06:33:37 AM »
There are several acres of big hitting before and after so a power interruption is a blessing despite the rather straight forward nature of the hole.  

Try telling that to Thomas Bjorn!

I believe the first televised hole-in-one seen on UK TV was made by Tony Jacklin on the 16th hole back in the late 1960's. Black and white TV coverage though, not colour.

atb

Sean_A

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Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-16 New
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2015, 10:45:59 AM »
Pietro

Should the opportunity come when you can play in GB&I and you want to see a championship course, make sure it is either TOC or Sandwich...preferably both. 

SANDWICH TOUR CONT.

Back to tough nuts golf with #17.  Despite the hole legging left, the drive is similar to #8 with the drive being open yet somehow ill-defined. After the drive the hole continues as you sail through swelling waves of dunes finishing at a raised green with a pronounced false front. 


The home hole is very good, but it is often overlooked because it seems to finish in a farmer's field.  I believe the building on the left is for the Permit Holders GC (ie Artisans) which doubles as a scoring hut during The Open.  It is pleasing to know that not all clubs have done away with this quaint tradition. 


While heavily and perhaps overly modernized, Sandwich stands along side The Old Course as far and away the most interesting Open rota course.  Royal St Georges is vast, vital and awash with admirable details...yet the course remains playable for the handicap golfer. What more can one ask for in a championship course?  2*.  2015

Ran's Review.
http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/england/royal-st-georges-golf-club/

An incredible set of photos by Jason Livy which are equally beautiful and relevant.
www.jasonlivy.com/golf/golf-courses/royal-st-georges-golf-club/#section0

More to follow.

Ciao
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 06:16:20 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Brent Hutto

Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-16
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2015, 10:53:21 AM »
Royal St Georges is vast, vital and awash with admirable details...yet the course remains playable for the handicap golfer.  What more can one ask for in a championship course?

Very well stated, Sean. And thanks for the photo tour.

My only other Open rota course played is Royal Birkdale. I thought quite highly of Birkdale (tempered of course by the usurious green fee) and thought it was also "awash with admirable details" and "playable for the handicap golfer". But the "vast, vital" aspect of Royal St. George's is pretty much unmatched in my experience.

Sandwich is the one of the few courses where even tramping about watching other people play golf (as a spectator of a tournament) has a feeling of excitement and adventure that usually only happens when I'm playing golf myself. It's a very special place.

Shot for shot, hole for hole at least for this high handicapper's game Royal Cinque Ports is a near match for Royal St. George's. The part that's an unfair comparison is the setting, the property itself IMO. The scale of the topography, the textures of the grasses, the way that flag at the clubhouse comes in and out of view as does the sea...it's all absolutely perfect as far as I'm concerned. As in literally could not be any better.

Adam Lawrence

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Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-16
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2015, 11:15:26 AM »
I'm with Finegan - RSG is England's greatest course, by some distance. None of the Lancashire links hold a candle to it imo, and though I love Deal, Sandwich is a clear step above.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Mark Chaplin

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Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-16
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2015, 01:24:23 PM »
Spot on Adam, Royal Birkdale seems to sit within the dunes and has pretty flat fairways, Sandwich lives amongst the dunes. It is the best course in England.

I believe the Permit Holders clubhouse was refurbished for the 2011 Open, it serves as the scorers pavilion. Are there many artisans sections up north or in Scotland? Both my clubs Desl and Worplesdon have artisans sections and are better clubs for it.
Cave Nil Vino

Garland Bayley

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Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-15
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2015, 05:27:48 PM »
Do the big hitters carry the Suez with their tee shots?

I was so intimidated I topped my second into it twice!

Wouldn't that be your second and your fourth? ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Sean_A

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Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-16 New
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2015, 07:40:41 PM »
I'm with Finegan - RSG is England's greatest course, by some distance. None of the Lancashire links hold a candle to it imo, and though I love Deal, Sandwich is a clear step above.

Adam

I long thought this as well, then recently changed my opinion.  But then my recent stint at Sandwich has reconfirmed that Georges is the greater course and one of a handful of the very best in GB&I.  The main reason for the flip flop is each time I go back to Sandwich the greens are more and more interesting; something I don't think the course is given enough credit for.  Whatever, I can fully understand the preference of either one over the other because they are such different courses.  Still, I can't help but wonder if a greater course was lost with modernization.

SANDWICH TOUR CONT.

Much like Rye (both towns of about 5000 residents) without the number of tourists, Sandwich is an historic town which was a Cinque Port. It may seem strange today, but nearby Deal was a Limb of Sandwich, hence it is odd that Deal should corral the title "Cinque Ports" for its golf club.  These days Sandwich is 2 miles from the sea and the wonderful dunes providing for thrilling golf is testament to the coastline shift.  In one sense, it was a blessing the town was marooned from the sea for it meant that Sandwich would have little reason to grow at pace; what remains is a charming town which suits the disposition of Royal St Georges.  Many golfers fail to explore the handsome town...see a few photos below.

High Street.


Barbican at the end of the bridge over The River Stour acted as a toll gate.


The temptation will be great to stay in the much larger Deal, but Sandwich offers its own rewards.

Previous 2014-15 Winter Tour Tour Stops:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60863.0.html  Canterbury 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40029.0.html  Edgbaston 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38973.0.html  Little Aston 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32146.0.html  Formby 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60714.0.html  Formby Ladies  R

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60660.0.html  Stinchcombe Hill   

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32228.0.html  Huntercombe

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33988.0.html  Notts 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48115.0.html  Mosely 
 
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47211.0.html  Worplesdon 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60107.0.html  Walton Heath New 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59831.0.html  Cumberwell Park Orange 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30926.0.html  Kington 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,49796.0.html  Cleeve Cloud 

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 06:44:30 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-16
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2015, 04:30:29 AM »
As ever a very fine photo tour and commentary. Thank you Sean.

From my visits to either play the course or to watch The Open one thing has always struck me about RStG - all that space and only 18-holes.

Bingmap extract - http://binged.it/1G2C4xR

atb

Sean_A

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Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-16
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2015, 05:09:27 AM »
TBD

The odd thing is on the map the site for Deal doesn't look that much smaller than Sandwich.  For lack of a better way for a person of my limited technical skills, Sandwich only seems five or six holes bigger if the holes were shoe horned in.  Much of the site is dedicated to stuff not related to the course.  But when on the sites, Sandwich seems far larger.  Can someone out there measure the course and house grounds for each place?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Adam Lawrence

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Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-16
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2015, 05:10:45 AM »
But Sean, five or six holes is 30-odd per cent bigger!
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-16
« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2015, 05:18:45 AM »
But Sean, five or six holes is 30-odd per cent bigger!

Adam

But Sandwich seems much bigger than that...at least twice the size of Deal and 5 or 6 shoe horned holes is only three Sandwich holes  :D.  None of Sandwich is shoe horned like Deal is.  This is why I was wondering what the acerage measurement for the courses are.  Maybe Sandwich is twice the size, but it sure doesn't seem that way on the map...I am very surprised at how similar in size they look.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Adam Lawrence

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Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-16
« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2015, 05:40:24 AM »
I found a tool that allowed me to make a rough drawing around the courses using Google Maps and would then calculate the area.

RCP -- 177 acres
RSG - 253 acres
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-16
« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2015, 05:54:27 AM »
Adam

Thanks.  That pretty much confirms the 30% larger thesis. 

Does the measurement include all the extraneous (Sec and Green keeper houses, practice ground and Artisan house etc) land at Sandwich? 

Perhaps what is more surprising is that Deal is 177 acres!  The property seems small, but it ain't.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Adam Lawrence

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Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-16
« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2015, 06:10:50 AM »
The Sandwich property is quite complicated. I drew a line basically around the golf holes so it probably excluded a bunch of stuff.

For Deal, I just used the road and the seawall as the boundaries.

I think RCP seems smaller than it is. There is a lot of space between the holes at the far end of the property.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Michael Felton

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Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-16
« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2015, 08:15:10 AM »
I think Sandwich feels bigger because it's more round, while Deal is very long, but kind of narrow (though I never feel like the holes are on top of each other). At Deal you can always see the perimeter of the course, but at Sandwich there are several spots where you are surrounded by golf course. Most of the holes are also fairly isolated at RSG because of the dunes, so you have that feeling of aloneness when you play it.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2015, 04:03:32 AM »
Michael

Thats a good point about not being able to see the borders of the property in a ton of spots even though the site is wide open and distant views are open everywhere. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-16
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2015, 04:34:28 AM »
I'm with Finegan - RSG is England's greatest course, by some distance. None of the Lancashire links hold a candle to it imo, and though I love Deal, Sandwich is a clear step above.

I agree with the No1 course ranking and I've felt that every time I've played there. But happily every time I play Deal, I think the difference is not as clear cut as you make out.
on 29th May I am riding 100 Miles to help raise funds for Dementia Research. All donations are welcome.
https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/ridelondon-tonymuldoon

John Mayhugh

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Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2015, 01:11:04 PM »
Another strong tour.  Thanks for the last few pics of Sandwich the town, as well.

I like how Sandwich shows that it is possible to have a championship "test" without removing so much of what is interesting.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2015, 04:09:15 AM »
Another strong tour.  Thanks for the last few pics of Sandwich the town, as well.

I like how Sandwich shows that it is possible to have a championship "test" without removing so much of what is interesting.

Thanks Tucky.  I really wonder how much cool stuff was sacrificed at Sandwich for the sake of the Open...maybe a touch too much?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2015, 10:44:02 AM »
Another strong tour.  Thanks for the last few pics of Sandwich the town, as well.

I like how Sandwich shows that it is possible to have a championship "test" without removing so much of what is interesting.

Spot on, imo. Sandwich is the links that best combines championship and quirk - the thing that true links lovers love.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close 1-15
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2015, 06:54:08 PM »
Do the big hitters carry the Suez with their tee shots?

I was so intimidated I topped my second into it twice!

Wouldn't that be your second and your fourth? ;)


No, two different rounds.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close
« Reply #46 on: May 06, 2015, 04:54:45 AM »
Another strong tour.  Thanks for the last few pics of Sandwich the town, as well.

I like how Sandwich shows that it is possible to have a championship "test" without removing so much of what is interesting.

Spot on, imo. Sandwich is the links that best combines championship and quirk - the thing that true links lovers love.

I spose the only challenger is TOC.  With the scores routinely recorded around there it is difficult to say TOC is a true championship test...in the modern sense of the term.  On the flip side, the lack of true championship grit is probably a great thing for golf.  Now all we have to do is convince developers, owners and archies that this is the case.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close
« Reply #47 on: May 06, 2015, 09:47:14 PM »
Another strong tour.  Thanks for the last few pics of Sandwich the town, as well.

I like how Sandwich shows that it is possible to have a championship "test" without removing so much of what is interesting.

Spot on, imo. Sandwich is the links that best combines championship and quirk - the thing that true links lovers love.

I spose the only challenger is TOC.  With the scores routinely recorded around there it is difficult to say TOC is a true championship test...in the modern sense of the term.  On the flip side, the lack of true championship grit is probably a great thing for golf.  Now all we have to do is convince developers, owners and archies that this is the case.

Ciao

Sean,
The sooner well traveled afficionados such as yourself acknowledge courses such as St. Andrews as "true championship tests", the sooner developers, owners and architects might be convinced .
I would argue that St. Andrews has done a far better job of identifying great players of every era than any other specially prepared torture chamber.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close
« Reply #48 on: May 07, 2015, 07:31:48 AM »
Gen Sherman

Yes, perhaps, if one believes courses identify champions. TOC will do well in this regard mainly because it has hosted a good share of Opens in all eras  8).   Muirfield likely comes out on top for great winners with far less attempts than TOC.  Sandwich doesn't do badly either except in recent years going back to Rogers and Curtis.  But of course, I don't believe courses identify champions. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: SANDWICH: The 2014-15 Winter Tour Draws To A Close
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2015, 03:35:32 AM »
Gen Sherman

Yes, perhaps, if one believes courses identify champions. TOC will do well in this regard mainly because it has hosted a good share of Opens in all eras  8).   Muirfield likely comes out on top for great winners with far less attempts than TOC.  Sandwich doesn't do badly either except in recent years going back to Rogers and Curtis.  But of course, I don't believe courses identify champions. 

Ciao

To be fair to Rogers he was in the middle of a very good streak when he won and Curtis though a shock has shown he is a decent player. You are right about Muirfield though.

Jon

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