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Jim_Kennedy

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What Did Harry Carry?
« on: December 19, 2014, 03:40:24 PM »
10 clubs.
  
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

David_Tepper

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Re: What Did Harry Carry?
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2014, 04:02:01 PM »
Lawson Little won the US Open (1940), 2 US Am's and 2 British Am's carrying as many as 26 clubs in his bag. Fortunately for him he did not have to carry his bag. ;)

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: What Did Harry Carry?
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2014, 04:11:21 PM »
Vardon - 6 Opens - 1 US Open - 60+ tournament wins in all - Little's bag should have been littler.  ;)
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

RJ_Daley

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Re: What Did Harry Carry?
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2014, 04:40:47 PM »
Wouldn't it be interesting to have a pro toon-a-mint with local rule only 8 clubs and no use of pegged tee in the ground?  That no tee was a suggestion of RTJjr, a few years ago.  Do you think that would put more premium and desire to promote the ground game, firm and fast?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Peter Pallotta

Re: What Did Harry Carry?
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2014, 05:23:31 PM »
Thanks, Jim, very neat to learn.

Could someone who knows about such things 'translate' Vardon's set into a modern one? What would he be carrying in terms of numbered woods and irons? I think i'd be wise to replicate it. (Thanks)

Peter
PS -- At first I thought you were talking about Harry Carey, Golden Age of Hollywood star and character actor, great in Westerns and terrific in his small role President of the Senate in "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington."  I was surprised he played golf!

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: What Did Harry Carry?
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2014, 05:25:14 PM »
Wouldn't it be interesting to have a pro toon-a-mint with local rule only 8 clubs and no use of pegged tee in the ground?  That no tee was a suggestion of RTJjr, a few years ago.  Do you think that would put more premium and desire to promote the ground game, firm and fast?

RJ,
How many clubs would you need if the ground was truly firm and fast? I think 8 would be more than enough, but sadly, we'll never see it on Tour as there's too much money in club endorsements.

Scenario: Someone in the field is going to win using 8 clubs - imagine the potential loss of revenue from club sales if the idea catches on w/the general public.  :o

Peter,

http://www.hickorygolf.com/about-clubs-1900--.html


 

« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 05:28:15 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What Did Harry Carry?
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2014, 05:48:26 PM »
Thanks, Jim, very neat to learn.

Could someone who knows about such things 'translate' Vardon's set into a modern one? What would he be carrying in terms of numbered woods and irons? I think i'd be wise to replicate it. (Thanks)

Peter
PS -- At first I thought you were talking about Harry Carey, Golden Age of Hollywood star and character actor, great in Westerns and terrific in his small role President of the Senate in "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington."  I was surprised he played golf!

Sounds like Harry had a driver, 2 and 4 and 7 woods (cleek lofted), 2, 3, 5, 9, putter.  The second mashie may have been a spade mashie (6) or mashie niblick (7).  Lot of long clubs, not many finesse clubs!

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: What Did Harry Carry?
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2014, 05:54:43 PM »
In his book, "The Gist Of Golf", he wrote:

"There are many golfers who feel that they must have at least a dozen or fourteen. Seven or eight ought to be ample - the driver, brassie, cleek, iron, mashie, niblick, and putter, perhaps, a jigger added to the equipment to give a sense of security.....I confess that, on important occasions, I carry eleven clubs, but three of these are spares and are seldom employed."

And in "The Complete Golfer" he gave specs for his set:

Club.                  Length.          Weight.
Driver                   42   inches   12   oz.
Brassy           42   "   12   "
Driving mashie   38   "   14   "
Driving cleek   37   "   13   "
Light cleek           37   "   13   "
Iron                   35   "   15   "
Mashie           36   "   15   "
Niblick           37   "   19   "
Putter            33   "   15   "
(putting cleek)
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 05:58:38 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tom_Doak

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Re: What Did Harry Carry?
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2014, 05:57:01 PM »
Wouldn't it be interesting to have a pro toon-a-mint with local rule only 8 clubs and no use of pegged tee in the ground?  That no tee was a suggestion of RTJjr, a few years ago.  Do you think that would put more premium and desire to promote the ground game, firm and fast?

When was the suggestion by Bobby Jones?  I heard it from another architect at an open meeting in St. Andrews a few years back ... just trying to see who stole it from whom.

Matthew Mollica

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Re: What Did Harry Carry?
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2014, 07:37:51 PM »

"An undue profusion of implements often leads to hesitation in the selection of a club for a particular shot, and a general state of confusion."

And

two mashies, but no mashie niblick - the one club Bobby Jones often thought wasn't quite right.


MM
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Bill_McBride

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Re: What Did Harry Carry?
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2014, 07:41:35 PM »

"An undue profusion of implements often leads to hesitation in the selection of a club for a particular shot, and a general state of confusion."

And

two mashies, but no mashie niblick - the one club Bobby Jones often thought wasn't quite right.


MM

If he carried two mashies, there had to be some differentiation.  Otherwise why two?   There's a big gap between mashie (5 iron) and niblick (9 or PW). 

Matthew Mollica

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Re: What Did Harry Carry?
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2014, 07:42:35 PM »
Bill, there's regular mashies, spade mashies, deep mashies, all of various lofts.
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Jud_T

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Re: What Did Harry Carry?
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2014, 08:33:42 PM »
One of the better thread titles in recent memory, even if it should be OT...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: What Did Harry Carry?
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2014, 10:26:33 PM »
One of the better thread titles in recent memory, even if it should be OT...
He was an architect.   ;D
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

RJ_Daley

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Re: What Did Harry Carry?
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2014, 10:55:05 PM »
TD, IIRC, the attribution to RTJjr, was in one of the magazines, and an interview of him.  I wouldn't swear to it.  

I am pretty sure we discussed the concept here on GCA, as well.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 10:57:29 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: What Did Harry Carry?
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2014, 12:10:57 AM »
Wouldn't it be interesting to have a pro toon-a-mint with local rule only 8 clubs and no use of pegged tee in the ground?  


I've just seen the light.

No need for longer courses. No need to rein back the ball. No need to for different rules for pros and amateurs.

Simply abolish the tee peg.


Brilliant!
« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 12:17:36 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Bill_McBride

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Re: What Did Harry Carry?
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2014, 03:27:16 AM »
Bill, there's regular mashies, spade mashies, deep mashies, all of various lofts.

That's what I was trying to say.  The article says he carried two mashies.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: What Did Harry Carry?
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2014, 02:54:14 PM »
Bill,
Vardon's second mashie is described here:



The 'mongrel mashie' described here::

http://www.hickorygolf.com/about-clubs-1900--.html


The full article, probably the one that was condensed for the Bogalusa article:
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=NZH19131009.2.126.8
« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 02:58:13 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ben Hollerbach

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Re: What Did Harry Carry?
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2014, 03:25:55 PM »
Based upon that article, it sounds very much like the second mashie was a spade mashie rather than mongrel mashie. The spade mashie was inherently a get out of trouble club while the mongrel mashie was much more similar to a long iron and ill suited for getting a ball out of rough.  Even going beyond the "sub-mashies" that were common in a players bag of the hickory era, it was also common for a player to carry 2 very similar true mashies. They were often only slightly different but could be used to play a wide variety of shots. often one would have a weaker or longer shaft that made it play differently. Since the mashie was considered the standard approach club it was good to carry two similar clubs to expand one's approach capabilities. Also, a mashie would be more similar to a modern 7 iron, not a 5 iron.

Ken Moum

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Re: What Did Harry Carry?
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2014, 07:25:20 PM »
Thanks, Jim, very neat to learn.

Could someone who knows about such things 'translate' Vardon's set into a modern one? What would he be carrying in terms of numbered woods and irons? I think i'd be wise to replicate it. (Thanks)

Peter
PS -- At first I thought you were talking about Harry Carey, Golden Age of Hollywood star and character actor, great in Westerns and terrific in his small role President of the Senate in "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington."  I was surprised he played golf!

Sounds like Harry had a driver, 2 and 4 and 7 woods (cleek lofted), 2, 3, 5, 9, putter.  The second mashie may have been a spade mashie (6) or mashie niblick (7).  Lot of long clubs, not many finesse clubs!

It's also possible that the cleek was an iron.  I have both wooden and iron cleeks in my assortment of hickories.

I also have a bulldog, which is about the same as a 7 wood.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Bill_McBride

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Re: What Did Harry Carry?
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2014, 10:28:25 PM »
Based upon that article, it sounds very much like the second mashie was a spade mashie rather than mongrel mashie. The spade mashie was inherently a get out of trouble club while the mongrel mashie was much more similar to a long iron and ill suited for getting a ball out of rough.  Even going beyond the "sub-mashies" that were common in a players bag of the hickory era, it was also common for a player to carry 2 very similar true mashies. They were often only slightly different but could be used to play a wide variety of shots. often one would have a weaker or longer shaft that made it play differently. Since the mashie was considered the standard approach club it was good to carry two similar clubs to expand one's approach capabilities. Also, a mashie would be more similar to a modern 7 iron, not a 5 iron.

My understanding has always been that the mashie was 5 iron equal and mashie niblick was the 7 iron equal, half way between mashie and niblick.   As always I could be completely wrong!

Matthew Mollica

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Re: What Did Harry Carry?
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2014, 01:49:52 AM »
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Mike Policano

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Re: What Did Harry Carry?
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2014, 09:27:25 AM »
Bill,

I agree with Ben on his club comments. Harry was probably referring the spade mashie to get out of the rough. The bigger face and lack of bounce makes that club go thru rough like a machete. The ball comes out remarkably well.

As for the mashie niblick, in my bag it is much closer to a 9 iron, especially with its distinct shape.

Interesting to see Vardon have his bag weighted toward longer clubs. I think current hickory players carry more than one niblick as opposed to more than one brassie.

Cheers, Mike

Bill_McBride

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Re: What Did Harry Carry?
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2014, 09:52:05 AM »
Bill,

I agree with Ben on his club comments. Harry was probably referring the spade mashie to get out of the rough. The bigger face and lack of bounce makes that club go thru rough like a machete. The ball comes out remarkably well.

As for the mashie niblick, in my bag it is much closer to a 9 iron, especially with its distinct shape.

Interesting to see Vardon have his bag weighted toward longer clubs. I think current hickory players carry more than one niblick as opposed to more than one brassie.

Cheers, Mike

Lots of variations.  I have a Laurie Auchterlonie mashie niblick I bought from the shop in St Andrews and it's close to my 8 iron in loft. 

Merry Christmas Mike!

Bruce Katona

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Re: What Did Harry Caray?
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2014, 12:58:14 PM »
For us on this this side of the pond.....not much of a tune, but what a classic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo9fEADUqPs

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