News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
We see many splendid photos of holes. Most are taken from the players view, ie front on. I however, like to look at greensites from the sides and from the rear as well.

I recently played the wonderful Beau Desert, laid out in 1912, which has a terrific set of Herbert Fowler greens. As a short case study I took some photos from the sides and from the rear of a few of the greens and thought I'd share them with you.

I'd be interested to see photos of other greens photo'd particularly from the sides or rear. To me there is a very different perspective in seeing a green from the sides or from the rear and I'd been be particularly interested to know what emphasis architects place on this element from the design, construction and playability perspectives.

As an opener, here is a view you will probably have seen several times before, taken from the rear of the terrific par-4 5th hole with it's interesting raised middle section.


Appreciably downhill par-4 6th green, first from the front, and then in the further photos from the lower left side.




One aspect of this hole that intrigues me is the trench to the right of the green in the first photo, photo repeated again below. Presumably a trench such as this is not  only a golfing hazard but also ensures that any heavy run-off or storm rain water running down from the hill above the green does not end up on the putting surface. I believe there is a similar trench at the rear of the 13th at ANGC. Seems like a good idea. Any thoughts or examples of other use?


Par-3 7th hole from the rear. The green crests about 1/3rd of the way onto the putting surface and then falls away to the rear with the grass bunker on the high side. As the further photos show this green tilts a great deal from high to low side.



Par-4 8th from the left side. Deep grass bunker and heather. Green slopes down appreciable from the centre to the front.


Drivaebale short par-4 9th from the left side - don't go long! Par-3 10th hole in the background.


Short Par-3 10th from the front tee. Green has step in the middle and the top tier slopes severely from back to front. The sting in the tail is over the back of the green though. Only very skilful or very jammy up-n-downs from over this rear of this green (2nd photo).



Longish par-4 11th. Wonderful green IMO - 3-putt heaven! I wonder if the green was originally 20 yds alonger?


Longish par-4 12th. The terrific double-dog-leg hole. Again photo from the rear.


Green of the downhill par-4 13th as viewed from the 8th fairway - again don't go long! The rough can be pretty viscious at BD.


Uphill par-4 14th hole. The green is nearly 50 yds long and has a distinct hump or small burried elephant near the front. Not only is there a trench at the back but theres' also heather clumps on the rear bank too.


Long par-5 15th from the left side. This long green, which is slightly waisted in the centre, slopes severely from front down to the rear and is a right devil to putt on.


Par-3 16th from the rear. Lots of contour within the green, which is waisted in the centre, where there is also a step/change of level.


Par-5 18th from the right rear. This time the bank is at the front of the green. The green slopes very severely downwards from rear to front.


As mentioned above, my intention is not to highlight lovely Beau Desert, that's been done very nicely a few times herein already, but to try to examine green sites from the side and rear perspectives. In this case they happen to be Herbert Fowlers greens at Beau Desert.

Thoughts and other examples?

atb
« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 11:43:36 AM by Thomas Dai »

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green sites viewed from the rear
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2014, 08:20:51 AM »
A master putter's dream. It's neat to add art to the practical nature of a course tour. I think that greens from the rear tell the story we wish we knew while standing in the fairway. I don't know the course, so I cannot comment on the usefulness of these images, but I certainly enjoyed this tour.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green sites viewed from the rear
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2014, 09:26:13 AM »
great pics of an interesting course. I also like to take photos of the green sites from the side and rear as well. I will try and post a few up later.
Last 15 Played:
Stoatin Brae GC (MI), Crystal Downs CC (MI), Diamond Springs GC (MI), Perry Park (KY), Lakota Links (CO), Copper Rock (UT), Little America GC (WY), Erie GC (PA), Skyway (NJ), Ferry Point (NY), The Bridge (NY), Montauk Downs (NY), Totteridge (PA), Hillsboro Elks CC (OH), Smock (IN)

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Thomas Dai -

Thanks for the pictures.

I recall reading somewhere that some of the green surfaces at Beau Desert have changed over the years as there has been settling of the mine shafts & tunnels beneath the course. This has added more contour/slope to some the greens.

Do you know if this is true?

DT

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Thomas,

Very nice photos. I, too, enjoy photographing holes from the side and rear to showcase the green site, the movement of the hole and its surrounds.

Following are some photos from a few favorite courses:


Blackwolf Run, River Course

#16




Sankaty Head

#5




#18




Streamsong Red

#1 (looking across to #5)




#16



 
Kingsley

#1




#6 (view of green from #4 tee; it makes for a great 110 yard par 3)




#8




#11 (view from right side from back of #17 green)




#16


 

#17


« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 12:16:54 PM by Howard Riefs »
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Patrick_Mucci

Thomas,

I've always made it a point to examine a green from behind it.
I think you can learn alot about what the architect had to do to create it, that isn't always apparent from the front (golfer's view)

NGLA was one of the more interesting studies I made.
I was fascinated by the contrast presented by the views from the front (approach) versus behind the green.

At a club that I've been playing since the 1950's the greens emerge seemlessly out of the fairways, yet, you develop a different perspective when examining them from 20 yards behind the greens.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ronald,

Without focusing too much on the Beau Desert course, it is certainly a course for someone who can use the flat stick. But much more than that, someone who really knows how to get the ball in the most appropriate positions to best use the flat stick. Although the course is not that long on the card, it has still held regional qualifying for The Open many times, although not recently. The course is located north of Birmingham. If it were west of London I'm sure it would receive considerably more play and praise. Very definitely a favourite course of mine.

Richard,

Thank you. Looking forward to seeing what you post.

David,

I'm really not sure on the subsidence/settling matter although I have heard the story myself. There are certainly old mine workings and grassed over spoil tips only a mile or so south of the course, not sure what's underground though.

Howard,

Thank you for posting your splendid photographs. I agree with you that photographing holes from the side and rear do showcase green sites really well.

Pat,

I would love to see a set of photos of NGLA greens photographed from the sides and rear. I'm sure it would be very informative and educational. I agree with your comment about developing a different perspective when examining greens from 20 yards or so behind them. Not just from the architecture and construction and maintenance aspects but also from the game-management aspect as well. For example, I've heard it said that the best place to play your approach shot from on the par-5 14th at TOC is not from short of the green, what with that nasty, cunning, evil angled bank to contend with, but from over the rear of the green where the shot back is comparatively easy, ie if you're a long enough hitter to do it don't gamble with the 'right club' which might just crest the front rise instead just take a bit more club with your second shot and go it over the back if necessary. My words may not be that descriptive but I'm sure you get my drift :)!


There is a story, maybe it's correct, maybe it's a total myth, that Ben Hogan used to walk a course he hadn't actually played before starting from behind the 18th green and walking around to the 1st tee in order to try and better plot his way to a good score. Whether this story is true or not I don't know, no doubt someone will chip-in here and advise the answer, but it is a tactical approach that to me has a great deal of merit to it. I think I've heard the same story in relation to Nick Faldo, but then again, that might also be a nice myth.

atb
« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 02:41:27 PM by Thomas Dai »

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Thomas -

You're too kind. Another good example of these photos are the set that Powell recently posted of the restoration work at Philly Cricket's Wissahickon course. These shots from behind #3 and #5 are spectacular:


View from behind 3 green



View from behind 5 green: 197 yard par 3



http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,56045.msg1385478.html#msg1385478

"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Thomas,

I've always made it a point to examine a green from behind it.
I think you can learn alot about what the architect had to do to create it, that isn't always apparent from the front (golfer's view)

NGLA was one of the more interesting studies I made.
I was fascinated by the contrast presented by the views from the front (approach) versus behind the green.

At a club that I've been playing since the 1950's the greens emerge seemlessly out of the fairways, yet, you develop a different perspective when examining them from 20 yards behind the greens.

Studying holes from behind the green is probably the best way to learn how to play them.   Where a hole may be confusing from the tee, the best playing lines are usually revealed from behind the green. 

Patrick_Mucci

Bill,

I'd agree.

Years ago, an architect told me that he designed his holes in reverse, starting with the green and moving backwards.

Thomas,

Depending where the hole is cut on # 7 at NGLA, often the best play is to be long and a little left.
I would imagine that the same might apply to # 17 at TOC.

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0

NGLA was one of the more interesting studies I made.
I was fascinated by the contrast presented by the views from the front (approach) versus behind the green.


Right before I read your post, I was wondering what the view is like from behind #4 (Redan) at NGLA. 

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
NGLA was one of the more interesting studies I made.
I was fascinated by the contrast presented by the views from the front (approach) versus behind the green.
Right before I read your post, I was wondering what the view is like from behind #4 (Redan) at NGLA. 


I'd be interested to see such a rear (and side) view of this famous and much discussed 4th/Redan hole as well.

Anyone able to post some and also some of the 7th hole mentioned above by Bill for that matter?

Howard,

Splendid Evan Schiller photos of the two holes Philly Cricket's Wissahickon course. Such a view gives a very different and informative perspective. For the same reason I have long wished that course planner booklets had the green at the bottom of the page rather than the top. When I was a kid and had heard of yardage books but not actually seen one, the green at the bottom of the page was how I prepared a few for my own use, pacing out and recording the distances as I went along.

atb

Mark Bourgeois

  • Karma: +0/-0
Two short 4s taken from the rear (ahem). Knowing how the hole ends, golfers standing on the tee must fight thoughts of tapping the brakes if the decision is made to go for it. Not helpful thoughts.

Royal Melbourne West 10


Ganton 14
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
ATB

That is a valiant effort to capture the essence of Beau's greens - its a tough task.  I have been trying to capture Beau on film for years.  I think it requires a step ladder!

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Ashridge, Kennemer, de Pan, Blackmoor, Eindhoven, Hilversumche, Royal Ostend, Winterfield & Alnmouth

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mark,

Very nice examples, and if I may say so, a very astute comment about when you know how the hole ends, a player on the tee needs to fight off any thoughts of holding back if he decides to go for it.

Getting into a golfers head and implanting negative thoughts, a deliberate element of course architecture?

Sean,

Thank you. I really struggled to find 'good' spots for some of the photos. It was snap-n-run at times, which I guess no-one would have done in the days before digital photography, as there was a 4-ball behind. Worth snapping away though as Beau's greensites are sooo terrific, at least IMO.

As to a step-ladder, we could make one onsite! - there's enough trees there, and some of them certainly do need to come down.

Without going into too much course detail, the tress that I thought were particularly annoying where the ones around the tees where they were sometimes so close and the canopy so overhanging that great care had to taken to avoid them, the back medal tee on the 8th would be one example. Terrific course though.

atb
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 08:06:17 AM by Thomas Dai »

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Thomas, sorry it took me so long to reply to this thread.

The first 2 pics are of the 11th green at Wanango CC near Oil City, PA (Ross and Tilly).


« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 09:01:40 PM by Richard Hetzel »
Last 15 Played:
Stoatin Brae GC (MI), Crystal Downs CC (MI), Diamond Springs GC (MI), Perry Park (KY), Lakota Links (CO), Copper Rock (UT), Little America GC (WY), Erie GC (PA), Skyway (NJ), Ferry Point (NY), The Bridge (NY), Montauk Downs (NY), Totteridge (PA), Hillsboro Elks CC (OH), Smock (IN)

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Rivervale CC (NJ) and NLE Blue Heron GC that was near Brecksville, Ohio


Last 15 Played:
Stoatin Brae GC (MI), Crystal Downs CC (MI), Diamond Springs GC (MI), Perry Park (KY), Lakota Links (CO), Copper Rock (UT), Little America GC (WY), Erie GC (PA), Skyway (NJ), Ferry Point (NY), The Bridge (NY), Montauk Downs (NY), Totteridge (PA), Hillsboro Elks CC (OH), Smock (IN)

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Water Gap CC near the PA/NJ state line:


Last 15 Played:
Stoatin Brae GC (MI), Crystal Downs CC (MI), Diamond Springs GC (MI), Perry Park (KY), Lakota Links (CO), Copper Rock (UT), Little America GC (WY), Erie GC (PA), Skyway (NJ), Ferry Point (NY), The Bridge (NY), Montauk Downs (NY), Totteridge (PA), Hillsboro Elks CC (OH), Smock (IN)

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Shennecossett in Groton, CT (Ross)

Fox Run GC in Kentucky (Arthur Hills)

Windermere Club, Columbia, SC (Dye)
Last 15 Played:
Stoatin Brae GC (MI), Crystal Downs CC (MI), Diamond Springs GC (MI), Perry Park (KY), Lakota Links (CO), Copper Rock (UT), Little America GC (WY), Erie GC (PA), Skyway (NJ), Ferry Point (NY), The Bridge (NY), Montauk Downs (NY), Totteridge (PA), Hillsboro Elks CC (OH), Smock (IN)

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Links Unon Vale (NY)

Holston Hills CC (TN)
Last 15 Played:
Stoatin Brae GC (MI), Crystal Downs CC (MI), Diamond Springs GC (MI), Perry Park (KY), Lakota Links (CO), Copper Rock (UT), Little America GC (WY), Erie GC (PA), Skyway (NJ), Ferry Point (NY), The Bridge (NY), Montauk Downs (NY), Totteridge (PA), Hillsboro Elks CC (OH), Smock (IN)

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Avon Field GC (Cincinnati) hole number 11.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 09:23:30 PM by Richard Hetzel »
Last 15 Played:
Stoatin Brae GC (MI), Crystal Downs CC (MI), Diamond Springs GC (MI), Perry Park (KY), Lakota Links (CO), Copper Rock (UT), Little America GC (WY), Erie GC (PA), Skyway (NJ), Ferry Point (NY), The Bridge (NY), Montauk Downs (NY), Totteridge (PA), Hillsboro Elks CC (OH), Smock (IN)

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Old Silo GC (KY)
Last 15 Played:
Stoatin Brae GC (MI), Crystal Downs CC (MI), Diamond Springs GC (MI), Perry Park (KY), Lakota Links (CO), Copper Rock (UT), Little America GC (WY), Erie GC (PA), Skyway (NJ), Ferry Point (NY), The Bridge (NY), Montauk Downs (NY), Totteridge (PA), Hillsboro Elks CC (OH), Smock (IN)

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hyde Park CC (Ross) Cincinnati, Ohio

Last 15 Played:
Stoatin Brae GC (MI), Crystal Downs CC (MI), Diamond Springs GC (MI), Perry Park (KY), Lakota Links (CO), Copper Rock (UT), Little America GC (WY), Erie GC (PA), Skyway (NJ), Ferry Point (NY), The Bridge (NY), Montauk Downs (NY), Totteridge (PA), Hillsboro Elks CC (OH), Smock (IN)

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pineneedles (Ross)

Last 15 Played:
Stoatin Brae GC (MI), Crystal Downs CC (MI), Diamond Springs GC (MI), Perry Park (KY), Lakota Links (CO), Copper Rock (UT), Little America GC (WY), Erie GC (PA), Skyway (NJ), Ferry Point (NY), The Bridge (NY), Montauk Downs (NY), Totteridge (PA), Hillsboro Elks CC (OH), Smock (IN)

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
CC of Waterbury in CT (Ross)

Red Hawk (Hills) Michigan
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 09:50:18 PM by Richard Hetzel »
Last 15 Played:
Stoatin Brae GC (MI), Crystal Downs CC (MI), Diamond Springs GC (MI), Perry Park (KY), Lakota Links (CO), Copper Rock (UT), Little America GC (WY), Erie GC (PA), Skyway (NJ), Ferry Point (NY), The Bridge (NY), Montauk Downs (NY), Totteridge (PA), Hillsboro Elks CC (OH), Smock (IN)

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back