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Mark Bourgeois

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This is one crazy routing with some amazing greens and holes to boot! Originally a Bendelow, Raynor was called in for a redesign c1913.




Check out:

* "pith helmet" routing, with tees parked next to greens and even in / near fairways, greens jutting into fairways, and nifty uses of available terrain (notably a ravine)
* Raynor's only back-to-back Redan and Biarritz
* pimples, holes, and swales in greens
* 7, which crosses the same ravine...twice
* 8, another carry across the ravine
* 9, one more carry but with a fairway bunker that appears to do a great job defining the hole. Tee shot reminiscent of Yale 1 but in reverse
* 10, a 90-degree dogleg
* 12, neat use of a crossing bunker (better angle to green from the right but a longer approach, worse angle from left but shorter approach)
* 13, could this Redan have been played with a putter, assuming you could whack a putter 190 yards?
* 14, check out this Biarritz's crossing bunker, narrow alley for run-ups, and striking green complex
* 16, do not spend a second's more time on this green than you have to

As an aside, I'm not sure I've ever seen a non-oblique aerial this old of a golf course.
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V. Kmetz

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what a beauty, great find MB!

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Joe Bausch

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Seems like it would make more sense if 16 and 18 were switched.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

BCrosby

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Mark -

I know nothing about Oakland GC, but 1913 sounds early for a Raynor redo.

Bob

Mark Bourgeois

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Bob,

I agree. Dan Wexler said the club added horrible bunkers in 1913 and "shortly" afterwards Raynor was called in. My own guess would be after WW1.

Joe, do tell.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Colin Sheehan

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Very cool find, Mark. This is a course where Travis played some of his golf early on, prior to Garden City. It was famous for the walking bridges that crossed the property's ravines. Here's a story from the New York Post.

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/golf/the_late_great_golf_courses_of_queens_M2FTy5T9ARfb8i2psh3DxO

And underneath is an aerial image of it from 1954, not long before it was destroyed to make way for the Queensborough Community College and additional housing. You can see Oakland's present state on the following image of the slideshow. In the 1954 aerial, you can see two of the bridges with their curving shadows underneath in bottom left hand corner.  
  
https://plus.google.com/photos/110429368341669114147/albums/5442636741996017201/5628471492544431442?banner=pwa

My research had the re-do dated to 1921. And the post article dates its demise shortly after 1960.
 

Jeb Bearer

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Seems like it would make more sense if 16 and 18 were switched.

That's what I saw too -- seems like an unnecessary walk back from 15 green when you've got a tee right there.

JNC Lyon

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6 through 9 looks like a very unique stretch, especially for Raynor.  Raynor seems to be either hit (18 at Yeamans, 18 at Yale) or miss (16 at Yale) on par fives, and 6 looks like a bona-fide hit.  Oftentimes, the non-template holes are some of the best holes on a Raynor course.

I also love the Redan and Biarritz back-to-back at 13 and 14.  That would have been two brutal par threes at a key point in the match.

What sits on this land now?
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Colin Sheehan

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I suspect the par-five finisher up the hill to just in front of the clubhouse was a better way to complete the round than the 16th which plays to the corner of the dogleg on hole 10, which may have not quite been the way to wrap up the day.

Looks like some interesting shared fairway (and fairway bunkers) on 17 and 18.

JNC, see the next image in my picasa slideshow and you will see what is currently there.

Sven Nilsen

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Here's what I have on Oakland:

-Organized in 1896, originally as a 9 holer by Bendelow.

-Some time after 1901 and prior to 1909 an additional 9 holes were added, architect unknown (a 1909 guide to golf on Long Island notes 18 holes in existence).

-By 1916, the course measured 6,230 yards, fairly long for that age.

-Per The Evangelist of Golf, Raynor's work was done in 1919-20.  This coincides with a drop in the yardage to 6,170 yards in the 1920 Annual Guide.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tom_Doak

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Re: WHOA! 1924 aerial of Seth Raynor's funky Queens course: Oakland GC (NLE)
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2013, 12:09:25 PM »
Is that the entrance road coming from the left-center of the picture?  Crossing over four fairways??

Mark Bourgeois

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Re: WHOA! 1924 aerial of Seth Raynor's funky Queens course: Oakland GC (NLE)
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2013, 12:11:15 PM »
Colin,

Great stuff. I'm on the small keyboard so I can't see your links well; however, I did a comparison to 1951 recently and in the '51 you can see those amazing bridges: http://golfcoursehistories.com/Oakland.html

Use the zoom function to get a closer look at the bridges.
Charlotte. Daniel. Olivia. Josephine. Ana. Dylan. Madeleine. Catherine. Chase. Jesse. James. Grace. Emilie. Jack. Noah. Caroline. Jessica. Benjamin. Avielle. Allison.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: WHOA! 1924 aerial of Seth Raynor's funky Queens course: Oakland GC (NLE)
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2013, 12:57:50 PM »
Colin:

Looked at a few of the courses in your album, which has some amazing images.

Looks like you put in a lot of work digging up the old aerials and adding in the captions.  The style and presentation is excellent.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Colin Sheehan

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Re: WHOA! 1924 aerial of Seth Raynor's funky Queens course: Oakland GC (NLE)
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2013, 10:52:47 PM »
Here's a link to an old out-of-print book called Golf Holes They Talk About by Fred Hopkins. It has been discussed here before. The links happens to have chosen the Oakland illustration that shows the bridges. 


http://valuablebook.wordpress.com/2009/04/15/golf-holes-they-talk-about/

Quote from this link:

The book has 60 drawings of the New York Metropolitan district golf courses all done by the author. Each illustration also mentions and shows notable members of each club. Some of the courses listed below either no longer exist or have been remodeled, thus, this book is a valuable historical record of golf in the New York area in the 1920s. Pictured below is the illustration of the 8th and 9th holes at Oakland Golf Course on Long Island. Oakland was a Seth Raynor design that was sadly lost, but looks spectacular.

Sven Nilsen

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Adding this in here.  Pretty sure this is the same image included in Wexler's book.

From the Jan. 1930 edition of Golf Illustrated.

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Matt Frey, PGA

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Joe: I would almost guess (purely speculative) that Nos. 16 and 18 were swapped from the start, but may have been switched after opening. I would guess that although the walk from No. 15 green to 16 tee is a pain, members may not have been happy to make the long trip back (up?) to the clubhouse, especially since 18 green is so close to the clubhouse.

Ronald Montesano

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If you lost out on MT's Confidential Guide, this might put salve on your wound:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&tn=golf+holes+they+talk+about
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Bill_McBride

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Muirfield routing, modified.

Bob Brightly

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Seems like it would make more sense if 16 and 18 were switched.

Thought maybe 17 as the 10th, 16 as 11, 10 as short 12, continue to 15 as 17.

Sven Nilsen

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Buried at the end of this Feb. 28, 1915 Evening Telegram article on Oakland lies a brief description of Walter Travis' work on the course.  The article doesn't mention who designed the second 9 holes at Oakland, but Travis certainly could be a suspect.

The article also covers the old version of the 17th hole, known as "The Heavenly Twins," an interesting name and an even more interesting golf hole.  I've copied an early photo of the hole below from the June 1903 edition of The Golfer.  I'm guessing this hole was part of the original Bendelow course, as the name is including in the Harpers 1900 listing for the course.





"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

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Nice find, Sven.


Do you know the timeframe of the second nine holes at Oakland?  Thanks.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

ANTHONYPIOPPI

"Though Oakland is one of the oldest golf clubs, it having been opened in 1897, the present course is entirely differente from the one where the charter members banged around the old gutty ball.

"The present course was laid out by Seth Raynor six years ago, and all the present well-laid bunkers are the work of Alec Girard. Alec is assisted by Charley Miller, who like Alec, is an expert on grasses."

~Brooklyn Daily Eagle, 7-22-1925

I think this explains why the aerial has a look not associated with Raynor.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 12:24:13 PM by Anthony Pioppi »

Sven Nilsen

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Nice find, Sven.


Do you know the timeframe of the second nine holes at Oakland?  Thanks.


Mike:


The first mention I have of expanding to 18 holes appears in the April 1904 edition of Golf Magazine.  The Sept. 1906 edition notes the opening of the additional 9 holes making a 6,108 yard course.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

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Thanks, Sven.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

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