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Brian Ross

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A New Golf Course in Dallas?
« on: November 30, 2012, 01:52:23 PM »
http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Dallas-ATT-to-announce-plans-for-PGA-golf-course-in-Trinity-River-Forest-181444851.html

AT&T and the City of Dallas are joining forces to create a new golf course in the Trinity River Forest in south Dallas.  Long-range goals include stealing the Byron Nelson from Las Colinas and potentially hosting a US Open.  According to Ron Whitten, Bill Coore walked the property yesterday.  No architect has been chosen as of yet.  Anyone know anything else about this?



Time is but the stream I go a-fishing in.

http://www.rossgolfarchitects.com

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: A New Golf Course in Dallas?
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2012, 02:54:08 PM »
Nice to know how much it will cost before an architect is hired.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil & Tiger.

Greg Clark

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Re: A New Golf Course in Dallas?
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2012, 03:13:11 PM »
This has been rumored for awhile here in town.  There is a front page article on the development in today's Dallas Morning News.  I'll link the story but here are the particulars:

- A non profit that consists of investors, AT&T and SMU, along with the city of Dallas will fund the project pending City Council approval.  The course will be in southern Dallas.  Land is an old land fill that borders the Great Trinity Forest.  The non profit has to put in at least $20M, with the development reaching as much as $50M with further investment and membership dollars included.  The city will spend $12M with most of that going to remediate the landfill.  It appears that the state had already ordered Dallas to clean up the site, but this will accelerate the process.  AT&T is in addition, donating $2.5M to the city to build a hike and bike trail near the course.  The city will own the land and lease it to the non profit.

- There will be an 18 hole course that while the article states will be semi-private, the Mayor acknowledges that Dallas citizens will have limited access to.  In other words - its private.  It will be SMU's home course.  There will be a 9 hole course that would be for the use of The First Tee.
Construction will begin this spring with the course opening in 2016.  

- An architect hasn't been chosen, but the article states that AT&T (more on that later) has interviewed among others:  Coore & Crenshaw, Tripp Davis and Tom Doak.  I had heard about the former two being in play, but Renaissance Design is a nice new development.

- They have ambitious plans (don't they all), but this clearly, if it goes through, is the death knell for the Four Seasons continuing to host the Byron Nelson.  They key is AT&T being the interviewer of the architects.  HP's sponsorship deal for the tournament ends in two years, and the deal with the TPC Four Seasons ends in 2018.  Looks like AT&T will take over sponsorship and move the tournament to the course they are going to have a significant stake in.  I wonder if the PGA Tour, or the Salesmanship Club have been involved in any way in this.  The hopes are for major events beyond the Nelson, and or course for the project to spur development in a pretty dicey part of town.

There aren't many things like this going on in the States.  I'm sure that Mr. Doak and others can't share too much at this point, but it sure would be interesting to know a bit more.  Particularly how good or indifferent the land is.  The article states that the course will be confined just to the landfill and not the Forest (can't have any trees cut down).  Can this land produce a top notch course?  Are the powers that be more interested in a typical PGA Tour length slog course, or is there something more intriguing possible?  Tom?  Anyone?

http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/golf/headlines/20121129-city-att-smu-plan-championship-golf-complex-in-southern-dallas.ece?action=reregister
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 03:17:28 PM by Greg Clark »

Brian Ross

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Re: A New Golf Course in Dallas?
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2012, 03:17:37 PM »
Good info Greg, thanks! Will certainly be interesting to follow.
Time is but the stream I go a-fishing in.

http://www.rossgolfarchitects.com

Howard Riefs

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Re: A New Golf Course in Dallas?
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2012, 03:43:34 PM »
Interesting to see AT&T continue to branch out with golf sponsorships and properties. Beyond the tour, they also branded the two TPC courses in San Antonio:

- AT&T Canyons (Dye)
- AT&T Oaks (Norman)


- There will be an 18 hole course that while the article states will be semi-private, the Mayor acknowledges that Dallas citizens will have limited access to.  In other words - its private.  It will be SMU's home course.  There will be a 9 hole course that would be for the use of The First Tee.
Construction will begin this spring with the course opening in 2016.  

This seems to be a mixed message. Are there other First Tee facilities located at private courses?


"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Tim Gavrich

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Re: A New Golf Course in Dallas?
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2012, 04:19:01 PM »
Interesting to see AT&T continue to branch out with golf sponsorships and properties. Beyond the tour, they also branded the two TPC courses in San Antonio:

- AT&T Canyons (Dye)
- AT&T Oaks (Norman)


- There will be an 18 hole course that while the article states will be semi-private, the Mayor acknowledges that Dallas citizens will have limited access to.  In other words - its private.  It will be SMU's home course.  There will be a 9 hole course that would be for the use of The First Tee.
Construction will begin this spring with the course opening in 2016.  

This seems to be a mixed message. Are there other First Tee facilities located at private courses?

Howard,

The First Tee of Connecticut sits at TPC River Highlands, which is private. Unbelievable practice facility there.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Sam Morrow

Re: A New Golf Course in Dallas?
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2012, 08:33:39 PM »
Where exactly is Trinity Forest? Is it into Oak Cliff?

Tom_Doak

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Re: A New Golf Course in Dallas?
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2012, 05:04:15 AM »
I've spent some time on site, and given a presentation with a bunch of design ideas.

The whole time I was talking to them, I kept asking if Bill and Ben were going to make a bid for it or not, and I was told they hadn't expressed any interest in it.  Then the day before I was there for my presentation, Ben came up and looked at it, so now they are waiting for Bill to put his thoughts together.  Everyone else they interviewed [5 or 6 architects in all] has made their presentations already.  I think they'll decide on the architect in January.

No further details for now, except to say I think it will be a cool project for someone, though the site is pretty complicated.

Greg Clark

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Re: A New Golf Course in Dallas?
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2012, 10:03:05 AM »
Thanks for the response Tom, and good luck on your bid.  Hopefully you can share more on the site and its complications in a few months.

Sam,

The site is probably about 5 miles Southeast of Cedar Crest as the crow flies.

Bill_McBride

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Re: A New Golf Course in Dallas?
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2012, 10:59:49 AM »
I've spent some time on site, and given a presentation with a bunch of design ideas.

The whole time I was talking to them, I kept asking if Bill and Ben were going to make a bid for it or not, and I was told they hadn't expressed any interest in it.  Then the day before I was there for my presentation, Ben came up and looked at it, so now they are waiting for Bill to put his thoughts together.  Everyone else they interviewed [5 or 6 architects in all] has made their presentations already.  I think they'll decide on the architect in January.

No further details for now, except to say I think it will be a cool project for someone, though the site is pretty complicated.

There's some pretty hilly terrain there if I recall correctly.   They do call that one area "Oak Cliff."

Sam Morrow

Re: A New Golf Course in Dallas?
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2012, 07:10:27 PM »
Thanks for the response Tom, and good luck on your bid.  Hopefully you can share more on the site and its complications in a few months.

Sam,

The site is probably about 5 miles Southeast of Cedar Crest as the crow flies.

So will it be off of Loop 12 between 45 and 175 or will it be south of 20? I don't know of much anything being over that way, I think there used to be a NLE called Sleepy Hollow in that area. With SMU being involved I didn't think it would be that far south.

Greg Clark

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Re: A New Golf Course in Dallas?
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2012, 07:39:17 PM »
It is right on 12, and in between 45 and 175.

Sam Morrow

Re: A New Golf Course in Dallas?
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2012, 09:06:41 PM »
It is right on 12, and in between 45 and 175.

Is there anything around there?

Trey Kemp

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Re: A New Golf Course in Dallas?
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2012, 05:18:42 PM »
Sam, here is the location.  As you can see it is across the river from the old Sleepy Hollow Country Club.



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John Handley

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Re: A New Golf Course in Dallas?
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2012, 05:39:15 PM »
AT&T is taking over the sponsorship of the HP Byron Nelson Championship.  I am sure they have plans to move the tournmanet to this site eventually.  Should be interesting and hopefully a good thing for the City of Dallas and the golf community.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: A New Golf Course in Dallas?
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2012, 07:26:16 PM »
.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2012, 06:58:54 AM by Don_Mahaffey »

mike_beene

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Re: A New Golf Course in Dallas?
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2012, 08:46:48 PM »
Years ago Riverlake,which later became Sleepy Hollow was the hot new course with 36 holes,etc.The pro at Lakewood left to be the pro there.Eventually went under then came back as a low cost club.The area is near some tough neighborhoods but pretty easily accessible from downtown.Cant imagine how hot an open would be.

Sam Morrow

Re: A New Golf Course in Dallas?
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2012, 11:27:01 PM »
Years ago Riverlake,which later became Sleepy Hollow was the hot new course with 36 holes,etc.The pro at Lakewood left to be the pro there.Eventually went under then came back as a low cost club.The area is near some tough neighborhoods but pretty easily accessible from downtown.Cant imagine how hot an open would be.

Wow, didn't realize how easy that was to get too.

mike_beene

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Re: A New Golf Course in Dallas?
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2012, 12:35:12 AM »
I trust you followed the advice of Hank Hill  when you walked the property:Get there early before the gangs wake up.

Howard Riefs

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Re: A New Golf Course in Dallas?
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2012, 01:04:25 PM »
AT&T wants the selected architect and project manager to work at cost, according to yesterday's Dallas Morning News.

“No one gets to make a profit out of this. That’s been our intent from the beginning in the way we thought about putting it all together.” Spears said. “This is a not-for-profit in every way.”

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/community-news/dallas/headlines/20121216-southern-dallas-golf-course-backer-says-architect-project-manager-should-work-for-no-profit.ece

A very slippery slope -- particularly for a semi-private club with a $150k initiation.

AT&T must realize this project isn't akin to the Rio Olympics course.  

 
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: A New Golf Course in Dallas?
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2012, 05:20:19 PM »
I'd like to see them try to define what is profit for a golf course archiect
As for the builder, I'm sure there is lots of room for overhead with a $50MM budget
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil & Tiger.

mike_beene

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Re: A New Golf Course in Dallas?
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2012, 06:31:06 PM »
AT&T needs to spend more time figuring out how to get my uverse to work and less time with this line of crap. They charge me for days they can't make this work. I guess they will be an anonymous sponsor so there is no suggestion of profit.The city of Dallas can't even get me a trash can.They spend their time writing us tickets if our sprinkler systems go on the wrong day.There is a reason the Rangers and the Cowboys play in the suburbs

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: A New Golf Course in Dallas?
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2012, 06:41:55 PM »
Yes, ditto that on getting Uverse working flawlessly from another customer.......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ken Fry

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Re: A New Golf Course in Dallas?
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2012, 12:41:52 PM »
A question to the architects out there:

I understand this is a public forum but I would like to hear more feedback on the proposal from you.  When I read the news piece for this project in the Dallas Morning News I was pissed!  My impression is AT&T is planning on building their own high end private club to host the tournament they will be sponsoring in a couple years while hiding behind the ruse that it will be for the betterment of the Dallas population by having the First Tee program and "accessible" to the public.

At the end of the day who is this project good for?  AT&T.  They own a private course with complete control of a PGA Tour event.  They demand from others in the industry that it be done free of charge.  Does all this sound incredibly hypocritical?

Ken

Howard Riefs

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Re: A New Golf Course in Dallas?
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2013, 07:48:46 PM »
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

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