[George Pazin]

How do you really feel about it, as a good player?

I thought the course was severe and unfair, and my opinion didn't change the 2nd or 3rd time I played it.  When I participated in discussions about Inniscrone with members at Dupont, it was always the same thing:  Too severe, lost too many balls, not fun to play, will not go back.  This was not just one or two members, but several.

This is amazing to me. I'm not very good - was a legitimate 22 (how's that for an oxymoron?) index when I played Inniscrone and don't recall losing a ball until I hit one in the trees on 17. I can see where it can happen, pretty easily actually, but I'm surprised anyone would feel that strongly about it. I find Pete Dye courses to be approximately 10 to the 17th power times tougher...

Maybe my play that day was the result of Jamie Slonis (my partner) carrying my 200 lbs around all day and being able to completely relax while he hit fairways and greens all day long.

[Kyle Harris]

I'm also wondering if the prevalence of some very hanging lies enters into the equation for most. In fact, you get one of the most severe fairways right out of the gate on the first hole - to an uphill green with a rather large false front. As far as one shot is concerned, it's tough to consider a more difficult proposition for a better player than that approach.

I can't think of another public course in the area which has so much severity in the fairway height as Inniscrone.

[George Pazin]

I'm also wondering if the prevalence of some very hanging lies enters into the equation for most. In fact, you get one of the most severe fairways right out of the gate on the first hole - to an uphill green with a rather large false front. As far as one shot is concerned, it's tough to consider a more difficult proposition for a better player than that approach.

I can't think of another public course in the area which has so much severity in the fairway height as Inniscrone.

That must be an eastern PA thing. Inniscrone would be run of the mill severity in Pittsburgh.

[Kyle Harris]

I'm also wondering if the prevalence of some very hanging lies enters into the equation for most. In fact, you get one of the most severe fairways right out of the gate on the first hole - to an uphill green with a rather large false front. As far as one shot is concerned, it's tough to consider a more difficult proposition for a better player than that approach.

I can't think of another public course in the area which has so much severity in the fairway height as Inniscrone.

That must be an eastern PA thing. Inniscrone would be run of the mill severity in Pittsburgh.

For the publics, sure. Private on the other hand....

[George Pazin]

Just to be clear, I'm referring to fairway slopes and lies, not overall difficulty.

I've been replaying my round in my head and I hit a bunch of bad shots on the front side and I think I did lose a ball on the 6th, IIRC, in the trees on the right. But I also hit a bunch of bad shots that I didn't lose, and was on track to break 90 before cranking two in the trees on the 17th tee.

[Kyle Harris]

George,

We are on the same page.

[Kris Shreiner]

Some very good observations on this thread men. Cory seems to frame the challenges of sustained player interest to return=profitability...quite clearly. I've not played the course yet, though have it on a short list for Philly plays in the upcoming year. I find the excited comments pro and con on this course intriguing. Usually, thought-provoking design stimulates such opinions.
Would some prudent but restrained tweaking by Gil yield a more player-fiendly presentation, while keeping it's quality and quirk? If the answer is yes...then I believe the man and his team deserve a chance before we can render a true verdict on what might be created there.

The F&B prowess of the new management looks great, but I don't know how that translates into success at a suburban-hinterland golf facility that needs the golf to drive the bus if it is to make it financially. I doubt that setting alone can draw the F&B/banquet/wedding biz to carry the day. The team they just let go were savvy golf folks- one hopes the new management will have a golf staff that knows the pleasing the customer end of the business like the former team seemed to.

Cheers,
Kris

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Inniscrone has been through the wringer. The Twp. is the sixth owner.

From Gil Hanse's report:

"... he was tasked to create a very challenging, difficult private golf course for serious golfers. When asked if he would have created something very different if he had been asked to create a daily fee public course he said – absolutely."

With only 300K to use, the Twp. can't do too much to make it more playable.

I'm reminded of the reaction when KBM's Lederach opened. It was either a like it or hate it reaction from the general public. My barber said he would never return there after 4 putting the first green. Others liked it because it was "different." I think it's very playable once the course is "learned." I think the same goes for Inniscrone, although I do like the idea of making 10 an optional par3 with a new lower tee.

[David Kelly]

Inniscrone is a challenge but to abandon it after one play seems very strange to me since there is so much interesting architecture there.

[Joel_Stewart]

On a larger note, I don't know who Tom Jackson is but it appears to be an architect who has some connection and now is a little over his head, trying to butt heads with someone like Gil.

A quick Google search showed the following.

"Quick Facts: Jackson has been actively designing and building golf courses since 1965, when he worked for two of the country’s leading architects - Robert Trent Jones and George W. Cobb. He has been involved with more than 75 golf courses during the past 26 years and formed his own company, Tom Jackson, Inc. in 1971. Courses he has designed and constructed include private, semiprivate, resort and public projects, seven of which were done for government agencies. The Carolina Country Club in Spartanburg was named among the Top 20 golf courses in South Carolina by the Post-Courier (1990) and has hosted the last two SC PGA Chapter Championships for the state’s golf professionals. One of his newest creations is the spectacular mountaintop course - The Cliffs at Glassy, which has been nominated for Golf Digest’s “Best New Private Course For 1994.”

In the spirit of the holidays, I'll let his resume speak for itself.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here is a lengthy list of Jackson's courses:

http://www.worldgolf.com/golf-architects/tom-jackson.html

He's based in Greenville, SC but was born in PA. Perhaps he knows one of the TWP. Supervisors:

Thomas R. Jackson, Jr.

Another golf architect calling the Greenville area home is Tom Jackson. Born in 1941, Jackson is a native of Pennsylvania but went to college at the State University of New York at Farmingdale where he earned a degree in horticulture. Seeking to continue his education he enrolled at the University of Georgia where he earned a second degree, this time in landscape architecture. Tom seemed to know what he wanted to do with his career early on and upon leaving Georgia he took a job in 1965 with Robert Trent Jones. His earlier assignments included the supervision of construction of several Jones courses being built in the Southeast. In 1968 he signed on as an apprentice and assistant to Greenville's George Cobb where he gained loads of experience. Within another three years he felt it was time to venture out on his own and hung out his own shingle in 1971. Since going into private practice, Tom has designed, remodeled and supervised construction of over 60 course throughout the Southeast.

Jackson is, perhaps, just now coming into his own in the 1990's as a reputed course designer. The dramatic Cliffs of Glassy Golf Club, near Landrum, completed in 1992 was an incredibly challenging project as the course was carved out of the very top of Glassy Mountain. This venue has gained Jackson notoriety by being selected by Golf Digest course raters as one of the top four most scenic golf courses in America, behind Cypress Point, Pebble Beach and Augusta National. The Carolina Country Club in Spartanburg, completed in 1985, has also been well received. In 1987 he remodeled the front nine and designed the back nine at Sapphire Lakes near Cashiers, NC which is another dramatic, yet fun mountain layout. His par 3, 12th hole measures 248 yards from the back (top) tee and features a 100 foot drop in elevation, seemingly straight down. You just don't find many golf holes like this one.

One of Jackson's early projects in this area was the Pebble Creek Country Club layout built in 1974. He has since added two additional nines giving this club 36 holes of golf. Other courses known to area golfers include Links O' Tryon, Willow Creek, Stoney Pointe and Hunters Ridge in Greenwood, Hickory Knob State Park in McCormick, Cheraw State Park in Cheraw, plus seven courses in the Grand Strand area. They include the River Course at Pawleys Island, Myrtle West, Buck Creek, Carolina Shores, River Hills, River Oaks (Bear course) and Arrowhead. The largest project Jackson has completed to date is Sandestin Resort in Destin, Florida where he has designed 45 holes of golf on this 2,400 acre development. Tom's sons, Ridg and Reece, have joined up with their dad and are well on their way to becoming experienced golf course designers. Two new courses in this area by Jackson Golf, Inc. include Brookstone in Anderson County and Lakeside at Lake Russell.
http://www.finleyongolf.com/articles/EvolutionGolfDesign.htm

[Joel_Stewart]

Steve:

I haven't played one of his courses.  If you read his bio, it's a whole bunch of nothing. 

I hate to be critical and I know other architects don't like this but if a guy is in business since 1971 and hasn't designed a course to break into the Golf Week or Golf Digest top 100 (or at the very least best in state), I think it's pretty mediocre.

I'm sensative to this since my former club, (really the superintendent) brought in an architect who had no experience doing classic restoration and did a horrible job.  It was obvious from the begining this guy was way over his head and really just wanted a paycheck.  I see the same thing happening here although with the limited budget, how much damage can the guy really do?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

To answer a  question about new home construction, the answer is YES:

http://www.nvhomes.com/community/the-preserve-at-inniscrone-golf-club

[Lester George]

I had a feeling this was (and is) going to turn out badly.  I was asked to submit a proposal to consult on this and happily priced myself out of the discussion.  At the time they were only considering Mr. Jackson, which I thought was odd (if not rude to Gil) because he "knew one of the county comissioners".  Sorry to hear that the Van Sickles got hosed in the deal because they are good people. 

Lester

[Mark McKeever]

Having watched John Lyon hit an ugly, duck hooked ball with Driver off the tenth tee that ended up being in an a-ok position (The ball landed behind the water plant as viewed from the tee)...

...I can't help but wonder if Inniscrone is simply in a lot of people's heads.

P.S. He was also an inch away from acing the fifth.

Oddly, I think the most difficult shot on the course is the tee shot from the back tee on four. Everything else is manageable if you just close your eyes.

That tee shot from the back box on 4 is something special.

Mark

[Jud_T]

Is it really surprising that revenue is down over the past couple years?  Someone must be doing some serious navel-gazing across the pond.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Joe Logan reprts that the  Twp. has passed a 5 Year Plan for Inniscrone. Details here:

http://myphillygolf.com/detail.asp?id=10676&pid=20

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