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DMoriarty

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Cypress Point - The Herbert Fleischaker Putts on the 16th
« on: October 18, 2010, 01:53:28 PM »
Legend has it that Herbert Fleischaker, a very good putter and brainy golfer, changed Mackenzie's thinking regarding whether the 16th at CPC could be considered an "ideal" golf hole.   Here is the dubious Doctor's doubtful description . . .  

I doubted the hole could be considered ideal, because I feared that, compared with the other Cypress Point holes, there was not a sufficiently easy route for the weaker player.  My mind was set to rest on this a few months ago.

I was traveling from San Francisco to New York with a man who is affectionately known as Billy Humphrey.  He said, "What sort of hole do you think your 16th at Cypress Point is?   I don't think a hole is a golf hole that can be played with a putter."   "On the contrary," I said, "I don't think an ideal hole is ideal unless it can be played with a putter, but we wont argue about that.  What is your trouble?"  He said, "Well, I was playing this holes against Herbert Fleischaker for two hundred dollars.  [Herbert Fleischaker has the reputation of not being able to get the ball off the ground, but he is full of brains, is a very good approacher and putter, and often outwits a more powerful opponent.]  It was my honor, and I put two shots in the ocean.  The old Herbert gets his putter, takes four putts to reach the green, wins the hole and two hundred dollars." I am afraid I was not unduly sympathetic.


This allegedly occurred some time around 1932, when Herbert Fleischaker was around 60 years of age.

Some on this site insisted that the story is true.

Having played that hole a number of times, I never believed the story/myth.  I have putted out of MacKenzie's bunkers at Crystal Downs, out of Maxwell's gunch at Prairie Dunes, putted from about every place imaginable at Rustic Canyon, and while I have missed the vast majority of these putts (and badly) I have also sunk putts ranging from less than an inch to over 100 yards.  I'll putt from about anywhere.  Not only that, but I've a reputation for cowardice in the face of carries, and at CPC 16 in particular.  (They don't call it the 'Isthmuth of Moriarty' for nothing).  But even with my prolific putting propensities and carry cowardices, I haven't tried to putt from the tee at the 16th at CPC.  Not yet, anyway.

Think about it:
The Ball circa 1932.
The equipment circa 1932
The rocks and mud and wagon wheel ruts, circa 1932.

Now, fast forward about 16 years to January 11, 1956.   A lot had happened in those intervening 16 years in terms of improvements to the ball and equipment and the condition of the ground from the 16th tee to green.  Yet, about 2:00pm on January 11, 1956, four rather skilled golfers stepped up onto the 16th tee at CPC.  Not one of them went with putter.  After four prodigious driver swings, they all weren't even on the green!  

So, the legend would have us believe that the sixty year old Herbert Fleischaker managed to do with four swings of a putter what these four greats couldn't manage to do with four drivers swings. Four putts, and Herbert Fleischaker was safely on the green.  Four drives, and these four were barely halfway there.

Are we to believe that 26 years earlier, with inferior balls, equipment, and ground conditions, that Herbert Fleischaker needed only four putts to accomplish what Hogan, Nelson, Venturi and Ward couldn't quite accomplish with four drives?

It is beyond belief that Herbert Fleischaker, with equipment and ground conditions of circa 1932, could hit four putts and get on the green, yet Venturi, Ward, Hogan and Nelson couldn't match him with four drivers.

But, it's a nice fable.

The question is, who started the myth and why ?
« Last Edit: October 18, 2010, 02:37:26 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Dan King

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Re: Cypress Point - The Herbert Fleischaker Putts on the 16th
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2010, 02:01:49 PM »
Where the hell is the like button?

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five.
 --Groucho Marx

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Cypress Point - The Herbert Fleischaker Putts on the 16th
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2010, 02:03:02 PM »
I like it.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Garland Bayley

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Re: Cypress Point - The Herbert Fleischaker Putts on the 16th
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2010, 02:05:21 PM »
As long as there are no lawyers involved in the myths, I'm going with the myths. Life is too short to have it ruined by a lawyer.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

George Pazin

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Re: Cypress Point - The Herbert Fleischaker Putts on the 16th
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2010, 02:07:00 PM »
Interesting chain of logic.

One little note: I seem to recall reading somewhere that Bobby Jones' famed putter Calamity Jane actually had the loft of a modern 2 or 3 iron. Perhaps Mr. Fleischaker utilized that to hit a couple hundred yard-ish type shots that looked ugly, but were nonetheless not entirely earth-bound.

Why not simply ask Mark Frost, he seems to have a firm grasp of all historical facts related to golf...
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Charlie Goerges

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Re: Cypress Point - The Herbert Fleischaker Putts on the 16th
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2010, 02:07:16 PM »
Now that you mention it, here is an old image of Herb's putting stroke. I can easily tell by looking at it that he had the ability to putt around the ocean at #16. What say you?


Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Garland Bayley

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Re: Cypress Point - The Herbert Fleischaker Putts on the 16th
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2010, 02:09:46 PM »
Now that you mention it, here is an old image of Herb's putting stroke. I can easily tell by looking at it that he had the ability to putt around the ocean at #16. What say you?




David did great with his post, but I think you've topped him Charlie.
 :D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Cypress Point - The Herbert Fleischaker Putts on the 16th
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2010, 03:29:08 PM »



A bit more about Mr. Fleishhacker.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Fleishhacker

"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Adam Clayman

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Re: Cypress Point - The Herbert Fleischaker Putts on the 16th
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2010, 03:30:14 PM »


Why do you proclaim it a myth?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 08:17:17 AM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tony_Muldoon

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Re: Cypress Point - The Herbert Fleischaker Putts on the 16th
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2010, 03:49:48 PM »
Interesting chain of logic.

One little note: I seem to recall reading somewhere that Bobby Jones' famed putter Calamity Jane actually had the loft of a modern 2 or 3 iron. Perhaps Mr. Fleischaker utilized that to hit a couple hundred yard-ish type shots that looked ugly, but were nonetheless not entirely earth-bound.

Why not simply ask Mark Frost, he seems to have a firm grasp of all historical facts related to golf...

George, I heard he used a metal shafted putter.


+1
« Last Edit: October 18, 2010, 03:55:18 PM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Carl Nichols

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Re: Cypress Point - The Herbert Fleischaker Putts on the 16th
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2010, 04:07:24 PM »
But how much dew was on the ground on the days in question? 

Neil_Crafter

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Re: Cypress Point - The Herbert Fleischaker Putts on the 16th
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2010, 04:42:27 PM »
David
Just too funny!!! ;D ;D ;D

No sign of Pat the Mythbuster

And we also need to know when the grass was last mown - and in what direction. Had the fairway been recently topdressed and wormed? So many variables........
« Last Edit: October 18, 2010, 05:26:54 PM by Neil_Crafter »

DMoriarty

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Re: Cypress Point - The Herbert Fleischaker Putts on the 16th
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2010, 04:59:52 PM »
George,  

Only a two or three iron?   My current hickory shafted putter (soon to be converted into kindling and a paperweight) looks more like a damn 5 or 6 iron.  I've no idea how these guys putted with these things.  You know how I am always going on about much fun hickories are and how, with the possible exception of the driver, they really aren't that much harder to hit than any modern club?  Well, I take it all back when it comes to the putter.  I cannot find a putter I can hit worth a damn, and it is driving me crazy.  
__________________________________

Kevin, thanks for that link.  It seems Mr. Fleishacker was quite a character.   According to the 1938 Times article, he was rather fond of naming things after himself . . . "In San Francisco a municipal swimming pool, zoo, park all bear the name of Fleishhacker—not only because Banker Herbert Fleishhacker was a big contributor to them, but because when serving a brief term as a park commissioner he named almost everything but the city sidewalks after himself. . ".   If the walkway on CPC 16 was ever called "Fleishacker Way" then I guess we know why.  

Mr. Fleischacker was also reportedly a practical joker and got into quite a lot of legal trouble for some shady dealings.    So if he was crooked then maybe it took him five putts to get to the green, not four . . . .

______________________________________

Neil,
Patrick is probably on the phone with with the BLM, trying to round up gopher infestation rates in the Carmel area for the early 1930s
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Ken Moum

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Re: Cypress Point - The Herbert Fleischaker Putts on the 16th
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2010, 05:11:43 PM »
George,  

Only a two or three iron?   My current hickory shafted putter (soon to be converted into kindling and a paperweight) looks more like a damn 5 or 6 iron.  I've no idea how these guys putted with these things.  You know how I am always going on about much fun hickories are and how, with the possible exception of the driver, they really aren't that much harder to hit than any modern club?  Well, I take it all back when it comes to the putter.  I cannot find a putter I can hit worth a damn, and it is driving me crazy.  

I had the same trouble with my hickory set, and being a mallet player, I even tried a couple of Mills models.  But the solution cam when I found a couple of period flanged blades that look like a cross between a Tommy Armour and an 8802.  They are so effective that I have used them in my modern set at times.

FWIW, you can "cheat" a little if you want, too. just bend a bit of the loft out of your blade putter.  It's a perfect adaptation to the conditions of today, and I seriously doubt that it can be considered a violation of the spirit of the game.  And, you'll find that the bend VERY easily.  Since the hosels usually don't fit a modern bending bar, I adjusted several of my irons with a regular vise and a pipe wrench.

K
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

DMoriarty

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Re: Cypress Point - The Herbert Fleischaker Putts on the 16th
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2010, 10:00:51 PM »
Ken, Thanks for the advice regarding the putters.   I would definitely resort to bending if I felt like I had one that was even close to working for me, but right now that is not the case. Being left-handed doesn't help, but eventually I'll find one with the right feeling.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Matt Day

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Re: Cypress Point - The Herbert Fleischaker Putts on the 16th
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2010, 10:37:29 PM »
did Herbie Fleischaker putt right or left handed?

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Cypress Point - The Herbert Fleischaker Putts on the 16th
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2010, 07:29:05 AM »
David,

Nice post and an entertaining story. At first, I figured a golf named Fleishhacker (Flesh Hacker?) had to be a legend just for the name, but it appears he was a very real guy.

As I read it, it took four putts just to get to the green, and perhaps two more to hole out for six?  It doesn't seem all that unreasonable to me.  As a 12 year old kid, I teed off with a then old steel shafted mallet putter on a par 3 and managed to nearly hit the green 146 yards away.  Even if the 16th played 300 yards as the Fleishackher crow flew, it would only be 75 yards per putt.  I believe that is doable with hickory shafted putters, but who knows?

Thanks for the entertaining read.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re: Cypress Point - The Herbert Fleischaker Putts on the 16th
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2010, 08:56:44 AM »
Jeffrey:

You know this Fleishhacker story put me in mind of something---eg one interesting option with that hole originally would've been to just make a really big crescent shaped green going all the way around the inside of the dogleg where there is fairway now and connecting with greenspace to the present greenspace. That way they could put the pin in all kinds of interesting positions but if it was where greenspace is now a short hitter could hit it over to the greenspace on the left and then just have up to a 75-80 yard putt across greenspace from there. I'm not too sure about the contour that would essentially be in the "neck" but that could've been adjusted to accommodate.

DMoriarty

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Re: Cypress Point - The Herbert Fleischaker Putts on the 16th
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2010, 10:14:32 AM »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

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