News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Return To REDDISH VALE GC
« on: October 13, 2010, 05:43:22 AM »
For commentary see Ran's profile.
http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/england/reddish-vale-golf-club/



The sign on #1 is ominous, but things improve!


The approach.  Strangely, one wee tree on the right was removed, but the larger one was left in place.


The short 2nd uses the gulley far better than it seems from the tee. 


By playing over a gulley the third is somewhat similar to the opening hole. 


Despite the visual mess, the 4th is an excellent par 3.  There seems to be a new bunker on the right. Previously, there was a kick-in from this area. Given the footpath on the left prompting the OoB stakes, one would have thought that leaving an avenue to the green from the right is prudent.  Before and after.




The fifth runs along the treeline which should be cleared so the river is in view.  It isn't a bad hole, but not one to mark in the memory bank.  The crazy downhill 6th also suffers from trees blocking the view of the river.  Looking back to the tee and the 18th green. 


Running along the river, but not quite utilizing it for strategic purposes, the 7th features scalloped shaping around the green.  With the river still very much in play down the left, the 8th plays to plateau green.

 
Featuring Redan-like qualities, the short uphill 9th offers a bit of a kick-in from the right. The right bunker is now visible from the tee and the forward bunker had its sand removed.


One of the best holes, #10 runs just below a railroad line on the ridge to the left.  The land pushes right so the hole feels like a dogleg against the grain.


An odd hole, the 11th plays downhill over a sharp break in the fairway which is harsh should one  mishandle the approach.  The par 3 twelfth comes back on 11 and is a good hole.  It reminds me of a kinder, gentler version of Calamity.  By now it is clear to the golfer that there isn't quite enough space for 18 holes. There are several fairly dangerous situations where golfers are hitting toward other golfers in range! 


One of Reddish Vale's outlandish holes, the tough two-shot 13th plays around a large ridge for the blind approach to a green in a quasi bowl. This is most certainly an All England candidate and a fine example of why I travel to play golf.






The 14th brings us back down toward the valley floor.


The three shot 15th legs uphill and left...a very intimidating drive!  A good drive to the upper fairway level will require a well controlled draw...the river lurks on the left.  The approach.


Another odd hole, the 16th is a Braid creation and is the hole which uses the river best.  Previously a par 3, Braid extended the hole to the current green site. Nestled into a small peninsula the green is anything but inviting.


An old photo (1940?) shows how much better this hole would look if trees were cleared.




It is hard to understand why at this point there isn't a par 3 played over the river to connect with 18.  Instead, we make the dangerous walk back down the 16th fairway for a par 4. 


The hole swings left around the river.  The green is built up a bit with its right flank protected by a well placed bunker that blocks the kick in approach.




The 18th should be XXX rated...it is far too scary to fully show in photos.  One gets a glimpse of its madness in the photo for number 6. 

To route 18 holes on this property is an achievement on its own. To also create so many varied and interesting holes is nothing less than remarkable.  The many positives of Dr Mac's work shine through despite the home hole and some of the more dangerous aspects of the routing.  1*.  2021

Ran's Review.
http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/england/reddish-vale-golf-club/

Ciao
« Last Edit: September 21, 2021, 08:46:18 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Jim Eder

Re: 2010/11 Winter Tour of England & Wales: REDDISH VALE GC
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2010, 10:20:25 AM »
Thank you for the pictures, I had never seen the course before and it looks to be very lovely. Excellent photography, I hope to some day play there myself.  Thanks for opening my eyes to another opportunity for joy.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010/11 Winter Tour of England & Wales: REDDISH VALE GC
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2010, 05:32:27 PM »
Sean - Always great to see your photo tours.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010/11 Winter Tour of England & Wales: REDDISH VALE GC
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2010, 04:14:36 AM »
Sean,

Thanks for the tour. Having checked Google Earth the routing looks a little tight and contrived at points, especially 16, 17 and 18, but other than that, it looks an enjoyable round. The 9th which you refer to as being similar to The Redan, remind me of the 13th at Mackenzie's Cavendish as it too is uphill with a hint of a Redan?

Cheers,

James
2022 Highlights: Hollinwell (Notts), Brora, Reay

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010/11 Winter Tour of England & Wales: REDDISH VALE GC
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2010, 04:34:41 AM »
Sean,

Thanks for the tour. Having checked Google Earth the routing looks a little tight and contrived at points, especially 16, 17 and 18, but other than that, it looks an enjoyable round. The 9th which you refer to as being similar to The Redan, remind me of the 13th at Mackenzie's Cavendish as it too is uphill with a hint of a Redan?

Cheers,

James

Boony & Adrian

Cheers.

There is no question the routing is tight and this is the sort of property that probably would be better suited to 15 or 16 holes.  That said 16 & 17 are good holes because of the use of the river even if a bit of a routing nightmare is the result.  I can't imagine Dr Mac ever advocated cross-over holes!  There is nothing to be done about the 18th and like Painswick's opener - it is a very poor hole.  

In keeping with the overall difference between and Cavendish and RV (there is generally much more shaping at Cavendish and less reliance on the land to create the interest - plus the greens at Cavendish are more interesting) the 9th at RV is not as polished as Cavendish's 13th.  Both holes are a little too much uphill to be true Redans and each really serves as connectors to cover sharp elevation changes.  That said, both are very good holes.  

Ciao
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 01:13:30 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Andrew Mitchell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010/11 Winter Tour of England & Wales: REDDISH VALE GC
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2010, 04:35:37 AM »
Thanks for the photo tour Sean.

Looks like you got better weather than at Beau Desert last Friday!
2014 to date: not actually played anywhere yet!
Still to come: Hollins Hall; Ripon City; Shipley; Perranporth; St Enodoc

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010/11 Winter Tour of England & Wales: REDDISH VALE GC
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2010, 12:52:56 AM »
I've recently become a member at Reddish Vale - and even more recently at GCA!.  It's interesting to get a visitor's perspective on my home course.

The MacKenzie pedigree was one of the main reasons for my choosing RVGC out of the many local courses I tried out following my decision finally to take up golf seriously at the belated age of 50. That and the fact that it is only 10 minutes drive from my workshop!

I fell in love with the place on my first visit. The approach to the club through a housing estate is decidedly uninspiring, but a short stroll to the rear of the clubhouse reveals the most stunning view of the course down in the valley below. The fact that you are in the middle of one of the biggest conurbations in Europe is immediately forgotten.

The first five holes at RV are often glossed over as being a pedestrian introduction to the course real. I disagree. Those same five holes on most other local courses would comprise the stand-out section. It is to the credit of the architect that such interesting holes have been fashioned from unpromising terrain.

I have to take issue with the description of the 18th as a 'very poor hole'. Indeed, it is featured in a book of the 100 best holes in Great Britain! I wouldn't go that far but the fact is that the descent into the valley could only realistically have been made at this one point; I was there yesterday and had a good look round. The slope elsewhere - along the fifth fairway - is far steeper and would have been impossible to include in the layout of the course. MacKenzie could have done very little else with what he was given if he was to return the course to the clubhouse.

Where I feel that the club and Mackenzie might have missed a trick all those years ago however, is in their use of the existing house as the clubhouse and the siting of the first five holes on the upper ground above the valley at all.

This is a plan of the course;



A look at Google Earth shows that the area containing the first five holes (circled in red) is very similar in size to an unused area on the property down in the valley (circled in black). Perhaps good use could have been made of this...



At the other end of the course beyond the 14th hole is a large area of interesting terrain featuring the winding river which to my mind is crying out for conversion to golf course! This area is unused apart from the occasional sheep.



Perhaps in retrospect the club 100 years ago might have been better off disposing of the house and upper part of the property, aquiring more land in the vale itself, and building a new clubhouse, with access from one end or the other along the river...




« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 02:27:11 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010/11 Winter Tour of England & Wales: REDDISH VALE GC
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2010, 02:48:53 AM »
Another thing...

The short 4th hole from above



Apparently the OOB posts have always been in this position. I can't see why, though. There's plenty of room to the left as you play your tee shot, and this just feels like an artificial way of making an already tough little hole more difficult for no reason. If the posts even just followed the line of the path it would be a lot more natural. What you can't see from the photo is that the ground falls away 200' where the trees start!

I can't help suspecting that this OOB line is not an original feature.


Edited 19.5.13

In the intervening couple of years I have learned that the line of OOB posts is most certainly not original. The Manchester Courier from 11th March 1913 describes the hole thus;

The next (4th) hole is a mashie shot, and one plays a little to the right in order to get a run down to the green. A pull will be disastrous and the hole will take, perhaps, a dozen strokes.

It turns out that the area to the left of the green was originally a precipitous slope which was levelled with land-fill in the 1960s. Whether the OOB pre-dates that or it was introduced as a temporary measure to protect the newly filled in land is irrelevent. One can say with certainty that given the lie of the land as it now is, there is no way that MacKenzie (or anyone else) would put in that OOB line. It is the utter artificiality of it that offends me and in my personal view it should be removed.

This is not an opinion shared by all in the club however...
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 01:51:12 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010/11 Winter Tour of England & Wales: REDDISH VALE GC
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2010, 03:29:03 AM »
Duncan,

Thanks for the local insight and welcome to GCA!

Cheers,

James
2022 Highlights: Hollinwell (Notts), Brora, Reay

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 2010/11 Winter Tour of England & Wales: REDDISH VALE GC
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2010, 03:42:51 AM »
Duncan

I strongly suspect that more of the river area wasn't used because of drainage issues.   I also suspect that the 16th is not Dr Mac's work because I find it hard to believe he would route a course like that.

I too wondered why the 4th had the oob line and can only surmise the club doesn't own the land or it must allow a public path through that area - thus H&S issues.  Mind you, I never understood how making an area undesirable to play toward in the first place is made safer with an oob designation.  Some day someone will have to explain that one to me.  

You have a fine course in Reddish Vale with several stand out holes, but the 18th is decidedly not one of them (its far too steep for golf) - tee hee!  Welcome Duncan and enjoy the ride.

Ciao
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 09:09:03 AM by SArble »
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return To REDDISH VALE GC
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2013, 09:10:36 AM »
I had the pleasure to play Reddish Vale again.  Lots of good stuff is going on!  I am even softening my views on the 18th!

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return To REDDISH VALE GC
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2013, 02:53:24 PM »
Sean, I seem to remember that the pitch on 18 was so steep that the grass on the fairway had to be longish to keep the ball from rolling down the hill.  Is that correct?
Tom Williamsen
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return To REDDISH VALE GC
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2013, 01:20:37 AM »
Sean,

So pleased you took the opportunity to return to Reddish Vale and it was a real pleasure to welcome you, Mark, and Ran to my home course.

As you saw, the club is making great strides in restoring something of the original character of the course by aggressive tree removal, the clearing of scrub areas, and the regeneration of heather. Both you and Ran immediately commented on the 'hidden vista' from the upper part of the property down to the main body of the course in the river valley, and you are quite right in pointing out that what could be one of the great panoramas in golf is completely obscured by trees that have been allowed to dominate over the last 40 years.  I am pleased to tell you that chainsaws are already being sharpened in readiness for the winter! :)

I'm delighted that you now approve of our 18th hole. It's amazing how a superbly hit shot to the heart of the green can change a man's mind!  ;)

I am looking forward to Ran's write-up in the Courses by Country section. Anyone wanting to visit Reddish Vale please contact me and I'd be delighted to welcome you.



« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 01:25:03 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return To REDDISH VALE GC
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2013, 07:35:45 PM »
Sean,

So pleased you took the opportunity to return to Reddish Vale and it was a real pleasure to welcome you, Mark, and Ran to my home course.

As you saw, the club is making great strides in restoring something of the original character of the course by aggressive tree removal, the clearing of scrub areas, and the regeneration of heather. Both you and Ran immediately commented on the 'hidden vista' from the upper part of the property down to the main body of the course in the river valley, and you are quite right in pointing out that what could be one of the great panoramas in golf is completely obscured by trees that have been allowed to dominate over the last 40 years.  I am pleased to tell you that chainsaws are already being sharpened in readiness for the winter! :)

I'm delighted that you now approve of our 18th hole. It's amazing how a superbly hit shot to the heart of the green can change a man's mind!  ;)

I am looking forward to Ran's write-up in the Courses by Country section. Anyone wanting to visit Reddish Vale please contact me and I'd be delighted to welcome you.


Thanks for the invite - I enjoyed it and hope to return. 

The 18th, hhhmmm.  I was actually far more pleased with my play the last time around; driver/2hybrid/2 putts/par.  I reckon the hole is a pussycat.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return To REDDISH VALE GC
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2013, 04:42:05 AM »
More pictures please!  Those ground contours are marvelous!
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return To REDDISH VALE GC
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2021, 04:03:36 AM »
Bump for 2021 Buda Pests
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return To REDDISH VALE GC
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2021, 07:44:51 AM »
Let me say straight from the off that I enjoyed Reddish Vale. The comparison to Cavendish is that it has better terrain for a golf course which MacKenzie uses very well, with his usual indifference to H&S, but that the green complexes with few exceptions, aren't quite in the same league as Cavendish.


The big surprise is the first hole which from the tee looks like it is a hit in a field and then when you get up to the ball you are met with a challenging and inviting shot. Indeed I thought all of the holes on the top part were very good. The weakness obviously is the finish. For me it starts to go wrong with the 16th. On balance I think it would have been better to keep the original MacKenzie par 3 as the existing par 4 is nice but not nice enough to justify the walk back to the next tee. The 17th also didn't play as well as I'd hoped having seen it from behind earlier in the round.


And then there is the 18th. I'm not sure what you can do about that hole. I recall Duncan started a thread asking for suggestions and I understand that there is a proposal to use some landfill to try and make the climb more gradual but even so it is just a slog.


Niall

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return To REDDISH VALE GC
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2021, 03:02:05 PM »
Returning to Reddish Vale after three years at Cavendish is a bit like a dalliance with an ex girlfriend while your new wife isn’t looking.


Superficially it was enticing and pleasurable in its familiarity and I rather enjoyed the morning round.  After a light lunch to get my strength back I dived back in for more illicit fun!


That’s when reality slowly started to set in. The imperfections that I had glossed over for our years of intimacy became increasingly apparent to my now somewhat less bewitched eyes and the reasons for our ultimate parting came crashing back into my mind. The awful routing of 16 & 17 and the appalling 18th were as shocking to me as the realisation that my former lover had always had a horrible squint and a pustulent boil which  I had never noticed in my years of infatuation.


The following day I returned to my “wife” and knew once and for all that I had made the right decision. Please don’t tell Cavendish about my episode of near weakness…
« Last Edit: September 10, 2021, 01:21:59 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return To REDDISH VALE GC
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2021, 05:59:28 AM »
Hang on there big boy.  You may have made the right decision, but Reddish Vale has a ton going for it. Getting 18 holes on that site, let alone many which are very cool, is something else. I actually like the course more than previously. Although, the promise of big improvements seems to have stalled.

Ciao
« Last Edit: September 14, 2021, 10:44:34 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return To REDDISH VALE GC
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2021, 07:02:25 AM »
I liked 17 a bunch.  Yes its narrow but there's great landforms to use (if you've brought a nice draw ;) ).


What made it unique to me was feeling like playing in some kind of glade in merrie England.  The contrast with the parking area and moving into the wonderful valley surrounded by trees is just  lovely.  Add to all that some great golf holes and I had a great time.


I will erase 18th from my memory and its a great place to play.
on 29th May I am riding 100 Miles to help raise funds for Dementia Research. All donations are welcome.
https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/ridelondon-tonymuldoon

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return To REDDISH VALE GC
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2021, 08:50:43 AM »
Hmmm....


Aside from that ludicrous walk from 16 green to 17 tee, and the appalling 18th, I really liked Reddish Vale.  The club itself isn't as well appointed as Cavendish, that's for sure and I'd get sick very quickly of the lack of decent beer after a round but I thought RV was far, far closer in quality to Cavendish than it's given credit for.  Difficult terrain well used.


What really struck me at both this year's BUDA venues was the different approaches to difficult terrain.  Both courses, oddly, put me in mind of Brancepeth Castle and, in doing so, both moved Brancepeth up a little in my estimation. 
In July 2022 I will be riding 3 stages of the Tour de France,  in the Alps, to raise money for the William Wates Memorial Trust which is dedicated to providing opportunities for under privileged young adults.  To support the Trust, please visit https://fundraising.wwmt.org/fundraisers/MarkPearce/rid

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return To REDDISH VALE GC
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2021, 09:37:27 AM »
MacKenzie and difficult terrain - as an aside have a look at the terrain he routed holes over at Rhayader! - https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,52664.msg1681351.html#msg1681351 - no Sherpa’s available.
Atb

Enno Gerdes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return To REDDISH VALE GC
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2021, 06:56:41 AM »
Looking back a week after playing RV, my main take away is that I really liked the holes, but not the routing. Let's start with the positive: the greens and surroundings were really good. Specifically holes 1-4, 8-10, 12, 13 and 16. I also liked, for example, the fact that holes 16 and 17 are both short par 4s, but where 16 asks for a fade off the tee, 17 requires a draw. I didn't hate 18, I just wouldn't want to play it twice a week...


The negative IMO is the routing. Too many tee boxes are placed within the drive zone of the previous or following hole; especially the par 3s, but also 16th tee. Hole 12 is great, but it's squeezed very awkwardly between holes 7 and 11. I understand that the plot is just too small and there are no good alternatives (except for maybe a new hole 17), but to me, it felt like the routing took a bit away from the quality of the holes.


Overall, I'm really happy we played RV in the Buda. I enjoyed the two rounds, and I've learned a lot from it.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return To REDDISH VALE GC
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2021, 05:08:10 AM »
Enno

Can you offer better options for the routing which produces high points and 18 well balanced holes?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2022: Erewash, St Pats, The Loop x2, Arcadia Bluffs South, Lawsonia Links, Shoreacres, Culver Academies & Crystal Downs

Enno Gerdes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Return To REDDISH VALE GC
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2021, 06:09:52 AM »
Sean - no, I can't. Except for maybe a new par 3 17th hole, which has been mentioned before. In theory, if you implement that hole, you can move the 7th tee backwards, create a new green and add a new (short?) par 4 to what's now the 7th green. That would replace one of the current par 3's. But I'm not at all sure all of this would improve the golf course though.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back