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Kevin Pallier

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The final instalment of my trip last year covers the NJ and PA regions....whilst the weather conspired against me for the majority of my time there - I could not help to appreciate the wonderful array of golf courses in that region.

An invite to visit Pine Valley (PV) is the golfing equivalent of winning “a major jackpot”. Opportunities are rare and I am sure very few would ever contemplate saying no to such an invitation. I know of only one and even he admits his regret in doing so.

Long considered the best golf course in the World and I am sure not too many people would argue against that notion having had the opportunity to see same. Crump’s grand vision and legendary attention to detail is very much evident in the wonderful routing of the course.

Put simply - it has the strongest collection of holes I have seen. I struggle to contemplate a hole that has any significant flaws or weaknesses – unless one considers the concept of forced carries a weakness ? That and PV’s obvious difficulty ?

Variety in the P3’s, vision + depth in the P4’s and strength in the P5’s - this course has it all. Those who get to play it on a regular basis would certainly be tested by the visually intimidating challenges of the course as there are certainly no “breather” holes at PV.

With the who’s who of famous Golden Age architects being involved at various stages: Colt, Travis, Alison, Flynn, Wilson, Thomas and Maxwell etc it’s little wonder PV is held in such high esteem and it’s influences are obviously immeasurable.

Holes I noted:

1st = (P4: 420 yds) the opening hole sets the tone of the round and one had better be accurate with their approach to the bunkerless green – otherwise you could be faced with a pitch uphill to a target that is a few yards above your head as the green drop’s off on three sides !



5th = (P3: 235yds) is obviously a brute from the plates – not for the carry across the water which will only capture the very poor golf shot. The difficulty lies in the location of the narrow greensite up on the hillside surrounded by trees and the severe back to front slope therein.



7th = (P5: 636yds) after playing up and down various slopes the 7th is on what one could consider one of the flatter parts of the PV layout. With the famous “Hell’s Half-Acre” to contend with at the 280 to 300 yard mark off the tee the golfer also has to consider that the green is surrounded by a sea of sand. Only after three exact shots will find yourself on the peninsula putting surface.



8th = (P4: 326yds) one plays a tee shot over the rise and past the famous halfway (pump) house to either a small upper or lower plateau green. Either is obviously a rather difficult target to hit off a downhill / sidehill lie.



9th = (P4: 459yds) this hole is deceptive not only in the width off the tee but also the shots into either of the B2B dual greensites.



10th = (P3: 161yds) is a lovely short P3 with one of the famous bunkers in the World – “Devil’s little ass-hole” ever-present off the tee. I thought the Road Holes bunker was claustrophobic ?



13th = (P4: 486yds) is one of the best holes I came across in America. This hole has it all in terms of risk v reward strategy on the approach shot into the green. The ability for one to be able to hit such an approach along the ground makes it even more impressive - that or try a 200 yard carry across sand and scrub with very little margin for error ?



14th = (P3: 220yds) a dropshot P3 down to an island green. What an impressive run of holes the 13th through 15th make in terms of their diversity and terrain changes with the later’s ever increasing narrowness all the way to the green.



16th = (P4: 475yds) is another strong hole with a green set near the water with a set of large bunkers protecting the left hand approach.



18th = (P4: 483yds) it would be remiss not to provide a look at one of the more tougher finishing holes in golf. Plenty of trees / sand / rough and water to contend with - is there a more exacting finish to a round of golf out there ?  

 
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 12:22:41 AM by Kevin Pallier »

Ash Towe

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Re: Golf in NJ & PA: USA Final Frontier Trip (Pine Valley)
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2010, 08:43:48 PM »
Kevin,

A fitting finale to an amazing trip.

You are to be congratulated on the quality of the photographs.

Thanks for providing so much interesting reading.

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf in NJ & PA: USA Final Frontier Trip (Pine Valley)
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2010, 09:26:47 PM »
 The essence of inland golf
AKA Mayday

Michael Taylor

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Re: Golf in NJ & PA: USA Final Frontier Trip (Pine Valley)
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2010, 11:56:42 PM »
Just another beautiful set of photos and commentary to go along with it.

What other courses have you got to do left Kevin?

Pup

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Golf in NJ & PA: USA Final Frontier Trip (Pine Valley)
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2010, 05:53:07 AM »
Michael

There is a few courses still to cover in this thread - hope you enjoy it.

Michael Taylor

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Re: Golf in NJ & PA: USA Final Frontier Trip (Pine Valley)
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2010, 07:27:32 AM »
I will very much.

And Kevin, you sure you got those distances correst? 483y for the 18th, and 220y for 14 doesn't sound right to me..?

Pup

JSlonis

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Re: Golf in NJ & PA: USA Final Frontier Trip (Pine Valley)
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2010, 03:15:55 PM »
I will very much.

And Kevin, you sure you got those distances correst? 483y for the 18th, and 220y for 14 doesn't sound right to me..?

Pup

Those are the correct distances from the Back tees.

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf in NJ & PA: USA Final Frontier Trip (Pine Valley)
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2010, 08:32:29 PM »
Kevin - you wrote "is another strong hole"...

They're all amazingly strong, aren't they?

TEPaul

Re: Golf in NJ & PA: USA Final Frontier Trip (Pine Valley)
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2010, 09:51:03 PM »
"They're all amazingly strong, aren't they?"


I believe the only hole at Pine Valley that I have ever heard panned by anyone of real architectural significance is the 12th hole by RTJ.

By the way, according to one close diarist of Crump and PV, the 12th hole was in part Crump's expression of what he was fond of on Myopia's 16th hole.

I should also mention that a few years ago I interviewed Crump's young caddie (about 100 years of age when I interviewed him), and he mentioned that he carried a small bag for Crump (just the two of them) and when they quitted the 11th green, Crump always asked him to go over and wait for him at the 16th tee. He said Crump was sometimes gone for up to two hours (looking over holes 12-15 which were unfinished at that time).
« Last Edit: May 15, 2010, 09:52:38 PM by TEPaul »

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf in NJ & PA: USA Final Frontier Trip (Pine Valley)
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2010, 08:58:53 AM »
Kevin,
    Thanks for the photo tour and commentary. I need to make a point of getting up to the Crump Cup this year so I can see the course. Sorry I missed your call the other day.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Peter Galea

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf in NJ & PA: USA Final Frontier Trip (Pine Valley)
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2010, 09:07:15 AM »

I believe the only hole at Pine Valley that I have ever heard panned by anyone of real architectural significance is the 12th hole by RTJ.


Panned #12, then used it as a model for #4 at Spyglass Hill?
"chief sherpa"

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf in NJ & PA: USA Final Frontier Trip (Pine Valley)
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2010, 07:13:14 PM »
Kevin - you wrote "is another strong hole"...

They're all amazingly strong, aren't they?

Dan

Some are stronger than others  :)

Tom

Thanks for the insights on the 12th

Ed

I will try again at some stage this week. Look forward to catching up with you.

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Hidden Creek (HC) is a wonderful member’s course not too far from Atlantic City. Whilst the weather was certainly against me on my visit (as you will see with the quality of my photos) - I couldn’t help but notice the genius of Coore and Crenshaw (C&C).

The contrast to PV (above) is compelling. Whereas the former focuses on difficulty as a key element in it’s design HC focuses moreso on playability. If one was to judge a course solely on that aspect alone I’m sure HC would be considered by many to be somewhat close to a Doak 9 or 10.

The fairway corridors are quite wide and inviting but the greens and their surrounds are the key element behind such a claim. They have some of the more subtle variations and undulations I have seen for a long time and have lovely little fallaways to chipping zones. I think C&C are the modern masters at this aspect of golf course design and whilst I haven’t seen Maxwell’s work at Prairie Dunes or Crystal Downs: could C&C be as revered in greensite design ? Rather than installing thick rough around greensites like many designs I saw in the USA - C&C opt for testing a player’s short game moreso via their imagination if Sand Hills, Friar’s Head, Bandon Trails and HC is anything for me to go by.

The course has a definite British Heathland feel to it with many of its greens being built low to the ground and almost extensions of the fairways. There are some subtle changes in elevation and direction throughout the routing but you almost don’t notice it. I am led to believe that the movement of dirt was kept to a minimum as the course flows over the natural terrain that isn’t too far from the Atlantic Ocean.



Holes I noted:

2nd = (P4: 421yds) this hole is all about choices. The first one a golfer has to make is to how to tackle the central bunker that is presented off the tee. Take it on and you are left with a much shorter shot into the green. Lay back to either side of it and there are no guarantees that you’ll get home in two with a huge bunker protecting the right side approach and trees and bunkers narrowing the left hand side. A lovely green with wonderful internal contours also needs to be negotiated.





3rd = (P5: 534yds) is pretty much a straight P5 that moves ever so slightly to the right at the end. The main feature on this hole is the bunkering and the routing encompasses the use of an old quarry that runs virtually 150yds long and 50 yds wide close to the green. Almost an optical illusion from the fairway there is around 20yds of grass between it and the green as the following photo shows - encouraging the very courageous player to try and go for the green in two.





4th = (P3: 220yds) similar somewhat to the long 4th at Riviera – a long “Redanish” styled hole with a strong slope from the right as the second photo shows. I love the setting of this hole – that and the wonderful movement in the quite large green.





8th = (P4: 300yds) again questions are asked of the golfer with the strategically placed bunker in the middle of the fairway. If successful in taking it on you can get a nice slingshot closer to the green and it’s one of the best greens I’ve seen. It doesn’t need a bunker to make things difficult for the golfer – just a central mound / ridge and some of the coolest internal movement I’ve seen in a green.





11th = (P3: 128yds) a lovely uphill short P3 to a skyline green that is quite narrow and has some lovely little fallaways. The false front will also deal with the weak shots into this small green.



15th = (P4: 411yds) a strong hole that asks for a better player to shape a draw off the drive then a fade an approach into the green that is unbunkered.





17th = (P5: 495yds) is an inviting long hole with the green having a fairly wide entrance that will encourage the aggressive golfer who can navigate the diagonal bunkers off the drive to “have a crack” in two.





18th = (P4: 438yds) instead of creating a “brute of a finish” C&C have laid out a hole that is perfectly in unison with the rest of the layout. It is an enjoyable but challenging P4 that makes you want to head straight back to the 1st tee instead of the 19th hole.



If you get the opportunity – I suggest you try and stay onsite at “The Lodge” with the apt Heathland named rooms. The experience of it combined with the golf course and wonderful friendly staff makes me jealous of the members at HC [and particularly that of my host  :) ] - it was one of my favourite all round golfing experiences in all of the USA.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2010, 03:36:59 AM by Kevin Pallier »

Jud_T

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Hidden Creek (HC)

 C&C opt for testing a player’s short game moreso via their imagination if Sand Hills, Friar’s Head, Bandon Trails and HC is anything for me to go by.



Uh,  I think that would be a yes.... ;) 
Awesome thread!
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jud

What C&C courses have you seen ?

Patrick_Mucci

Kevin,

I mentioned Hidden Creek to some friends of mine who are going to be visiting Atlantic City.

Even though they're from New Jersey, they never heard of Hidden Creek.

They'll be playing Hidden Creek over the next few days.

I told one of the fellows that I'd be surprised if he didn't want to join after he played there.

I described the course as very user friendly, regardless of one's handicap.

The course allows the higher handicap to enjoy himself while at the same time providing a very good test to the better player.

It's a wonderful course, run exceptionally well, with great staff and accomodations.

Thanks for the write up and photos

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jud

What C&C courses have you seen ?

Kevin,

I've only played Bandon Trails and Talking Stick North thus far.  I wasn't trying to be sassy, it's just that you've played probably their two most acclaimed designs in Sand Hills and Friar's Head, so when you toss in BT and HC I'd guess you've got a pretty good sample under your belt....
« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 12:19:41 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jud

I wasn't inferring anything in my question - was just curious that's all. Interesting that you have a similar belief.

Pat

Am surprised HC doesn't get more publicity - but presume the members like it that way

Bob Rittberger's course record of I think 62 ? is mightilly impressive.  :)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Kevin,

Any knowledge about that course record? Competitive, or not? Championship tees, or regular?

Certainly a great score regardless, but if it's a Back tee tournament score it's flat out incredible.

For my money, Hidden Crekk is one of the most enjoyable golf experiences you could have...everything a course should aspire to be.

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jim

The only thing I remember is that it's listed on a plaque near the pro shop. I presume it was in a competition of some sort - those more versed here may be able to help ?

Interesting aspect is that I met Bob 3x's in the space of a week all at different locations: Garden City / Hidden Creek and Galloway National - shows you what a small world we live in some times.....

HC is a very good course and I think of it very fondly.




Patrick_Mucci

Jim,

I had a 67 from the back tees in 2002/2003 and Bob's 62 blew it away.

I think he was playing with Pat Forgarty and that it might have been in a team competition.

My score was with good friends and rivals for a few quid


JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
I have Merion on the 10th of June, Galloway National and Hidden Creek on the 11th of June and Pine Valley on the 12th and 13th coming up. 

It will be my maiden voyage to all four places.

After reading this thread, I would hit the FF button in a nanosecond if I could.

Thanks for this great thread!

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ryan

I have Galloway National coming next and Merion's in the pipeline as well........

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
I was keen to see a Fazio layout whilst in the USA and I was led to believe Galloway National (GN) is one of the “better” Fazio designs going around. Those more versed on such things may have an opinion on same ?  but I was quite impressed with the design at GN.

Located primarily on a tract of land that looks across the marsh area of Reeds Bay over to Atlantic City it has some interesting topography changes particularly given that it flows across three different plots of land. The majority of the course is situated in and amongst pine trees as the routing touches the marshland area first before finishing the last few holes on very similar terrain.

GN doesn’t have anything amazingly good nor does it have anything outlandishly poor – just a very solid mix of holes that test a golfer particularly around the greens. The routing particularly the sequencing of holes is oft questioned however, there’s a great kick start into the round with the first couple of holes being quite interesting in the way with which they ask serious questions of the golfer straight out of the blocks.

It has a reputation for being a difficult golf course and it’s greens were a little quirky in places but that’s certainly not to detract from the overall quality of GN. It has a solid set of P3’s and P5’s each with their own subtleties. About the only thing GN lacks IMO is a strong short P4 ?

GN also has sort of a “Pine Valleyish” feel to some of its holes with its forced carries and wasteland areas however, GN doesn’t flow as naturally as its more esteemed Jersey rival. Though to be fair to GN - we are talking about it in relation to PV: arguably the best course on The Planet.

Holes I noted:

1st = (P4: 381yds) is a tough start and arguable one of the best on the course. A good drive is required in order to miss both fairway traps to allow an unimpeded shot into the narrow elevated and plateau green





2nd = (P3: 138yds) is a relatively short P3 that requires an accurate shot across the marshland to a green that is protected by a lone bunker front right and a steep fallaway left.



9th = (P5: 504yds) is an interesting P5 that allows an attacking player to take a risk with their second shot into the quite large green. The penalty for not being able to pull such a gamble off is fraught with danger from both the many sand traps and trees protecting the green surrounds.



11th = (P5: 481yds) is a P5 that is protected by water fronting the green. Only the very brave long hitter would consider going for this greensite in two – otherwise a watery grave awaits.





15th = (P4: 405yds) the large cross bunker dominates the drive. The hole then narrows with an uphill second shot to a well protected target testing your iron play.





17th = (P3: 219yds) has a view across to Atlantic City and would be a challenge into a stiff onshore breeze.



GN is a very good course and one I would certainly go back if I was ever afforded the opportunity to do so.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2010, 12:19:36 AM by Kevin Pallier »

Scott Warren

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Did you check out Pine Valley's short course, KP?

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