[Patrick_Mucci]

Bradley Anderson,

Look at Tom MacWood's reply # 77, the fourth image he posted.

[TEPaul]

Bradley:

If it means anything to you I'm convinced the photograph you asked about next to the DA that's the last on Post #77 and the one just above it from the tee were taken at the same time by the same photographer. There is just way too much similarity of detail all around to be otherwise, particularly the detail in the turf on the face in the left front bunker. And if you compare the growth (particularly of the trees and bushes) to the same in the first photo of #10 without the DA it looks to be between 5-8+ years or so.

I'm also fascinated that the green surface might be fairly close to natural grade with the bunkers dug right down off natural grade which may've been some of the reason that large right to level swale was reamed out in front of the green. What I can see of the contour lines on the PRE-construction contour topo map (The "blue/red line" map) seems to confirm this.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"I only refered to the "red circle" because that's how others previously refered to it, but, upon closer inspection I'd have to agree with Tom MacWood, it looks more rectangular."

Patrick:

Have you actually ever tried to look at it on the original map or a decent photograph of it? That's a rhetorical question, by the way, because I know you never have.

I find it interesting that you ask a question, then answer it ........ even though you answer it incorrectly.
Why ask the question if you're going to answer the question as you want the answer to be, not what it should be ?

No one even thought of that little round red circle on that hole in that area on that map until I did about 3-5 days ago,

That's not true.
I noticed it and I'm sure others have as well.
Declaring the red circle/square as the D.A. is a bit of a stretch.

What you did was make the quantum leap that the red circle/square absolutely or undeniably represents the D.A., despite the fact that it's position and juxtaposition to the green and green lines.

But, at the same time you're claiming the red circle/square represents the D.A., you're championing a conflicting theory that the DA just evolved due to foot traffic or drainage or compaction or some other force.  You can't have it both ways.
What's your official position ..... today.  
Red circle/square or natural evolution ?

and like everything else I come up with that is considered analytically important to that club and its architectural history you and apparently MacWood seem to find some way to argue with it or call it speculative.

There's a reason for that.
We're not prepared to accept your word, your theories and your myths as "The Gospel", especially when you're advocating two theories diametrically opposed theories that are in direct conflict with each other

One of the reasons for that is clearly you either have never looked at these original assets for that purpose or you just don't get it.
Before we go further, we need to know, are you now refuting your own theory, the Steineger theory, regarding the origin of the D.A bunker ?

MacWood has never even been to Pine Valley.
What do you think about that Patrick?

I think he should try to get there.
But, MacWood's not arguiing about the play of Pine Valley, he's arguing about the blue/red schematic of Pine Valley, and to do that successfully, doesn't require him to have played Pine Valley.

Aren't you the guy who claims that anyone needs intimate familiarity with courses to understand their nuances and architectural histories.
You're the one who keeps using Macdonald's remarks about all kinds of winds and weather anyway.  

That has no relevance when arguing the merits or interpretation of a schematic
MacWood is not arguing the nuances of the golf course, nor is he arguing elements of playability.
He's arguing the details of the schematic.

He sees a square/rectangle, not a circle in Mike Cirba's presentation, and I have to agree with him on that.

Secondly, the location of the red circle/square in that schematic, in the context of the lines of demarcation in that schematic, bears no resemblence to the location of the D.A at origin, over the last 90 years, and today.

And that's one reason you don't think it's round----

No it's not.
I don't think it's round because it looks rectangular.

eg Crump didn't draw it and those who considered it on his map did not that little round red circle in 5x or 10x its actually scale and one could reason why they didn't is that back in the teens there was no particular technical or technological way to do that which obviously you never even considered you are so historically obtuse!

If "obtuse" means I don't understand the above paragraph, you're correct.
Are you saying that neither Crump nor anyone else at the begining of the 20th century didn't know how to draw a circle ?

What are you saying ?  Please clarify that paragraph for us as I doubt there's anyone who understands what you wrote, other than yourself.

By the way, those maps are app. 4' by 2' or 5' by 3' in total size even when we look at them reduced from that 5x to 10x that some did on here on that hole. That would make those whole maps about 50' by 30' in size and nobody made or used anything like that---not ever.


I didn't post the schematic.
Tom MacWood didn't post the schematic.
Mike Cirba posted the schematic.
We can only render a judgement on those schematics as they appear when they were posted.

I studied Euclidian Geometry and Non-Euclidian Geometry and I can still distinquish circles from squares

My God you're obtuse but I've known that for well over a decade so what's new?  

We're ALL obtuse, just on different subjects.

[TEPaul]

"That's not true.
I noticed it and I'm sure others have as well."

Patrick:

I will absolutely guarantee you and anyone else who ever reads the above that is about the biggest load of "after-the-fact" bullshit ever put on this website. I'm surprised even someone like you would say something like that because I know you know that's not true. But it may be true that plenty of people including you looked at it without ever even considering what it meant or what it was. People have been looking at that map in that clubhouse for over 85 years without even thinking to question what the signficance of the difference between the blue versus the red lines are for Goodness sakes.

[TEPaul]

"Are you saying that neither Crump nor anyone else at the begining of the 20th century didn't know how to draw a circle ?"


No, I'm saying no one like Crump who drew that little red circle on that map at the beginning of the 20th century ever looked at it or analyzed it on that original map during construction blown up 5 to 10 times as it was on this thread.  


On another note, I'm surprised you even spelled Euclidian Geometry correctly above. Congratulations, at least you got something right on here.

[Mike Cirba]

Joe Bausch and I are heading to Ocean City today to search for Willie Robinson's fingerprints.

We'll stop by PV on the way and tell them Patrick wants to know exactly why and when and what they did with the asshole.

I'm sure they'll understand. 

[Mike Cirba]

Love the blind drive...love the exactitudinesnesh required on the approach...nther is no one forcing you to go for it...there is room to bail, and it's an exquisite visual.

How many 370 yard par fours make your knucles white?

[Mike Cirba]

Oops

That was supposed to go on the 11th at Merion thread.

Damn early moring typing on a blackberry!

[Tom MacWood]

Here is the plan the lies below red doodlings. As TEP mentioned in an earlier post the greens are not delineated on this map. Another interesting contrast, Colt was not adverse to the curve whereas the person (or persons) responsible for the red lines was a rectilinearist.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"Are you saying that neither Crump nor anyone else at the begining of the 20th century didn't know how to draw a circle ?"

No, I'm saying no one like Crump who drew that little red circle on that map at the beginning of the 20th century ever looked at it or analyzed it on that original map during construction blown up 5 to 10 times as it was on this thread.  

I recall my mentor, Sherlock Holmes, using a magnifying glass to "blow up" the details of schematics he was examining.
In my numerous conversations with Dr Watson he mentioned that the use of the magnifying glass and convex lenses dates back centuries upon centuries.  I didn't know if you were aware that people in the early part of the 20th century actually had that technology.

I became so fond of Dr Watson that I named one of my Bloodhounds after him. "Doctor Watson",  I called him "Doc", for short
I named the other Bloodhound "Beau", after seeing The movie "Beau Geste".  
I considered a number of names I associated with the South, .  I almost named him "Rhett" after the character in the book, "Gone With the Wind", "Rhett Butler".

I know that you named your dogs "Butler", "Maid", "Valet" and "Chauffeur" after your many servants, but, I chose more sentimental names for my pets, other than my two Dobermans who I named "Odin" and "Thor"

Doc and Beau were great pets and companiions and could smell out B.S. such as that which you've typed above, at about a mile to a mile and a half.

But, my favorite dog was an Alaskan Malamute.
He was huge and gorgeous and loyal.
I had just met a rather attractive young woman in a casino in Las Vegas, in a Keno parlor, and there's a town in the Yukon Territory named "Keno Hill", so it just seemed natural that I should name him "Keno",  I loved that dog.  At one time, some friends mentioned that they could see how much that dog and I loved each other, so they asked me, "if it came down to a choice between your girlfriend (the one I met in the casino) and the dog, who would you choose ?"  I said, "it's no contest.  They both cook about the same and the Malamute listens to me 50 % of the time"
The Malamute outlasted her by many years as he lived to 15, which is uncommon for large dogs.
When I finally had to put him down, on five occassions I put him in the car and headed to the Vet.
The furthest I ever got was the end of my driveway.  I just couldn't do it.
I was married by then, and eventually my wife had to take him to the Vet because I just couldn't do it.
When I came home that night, I was hoping that he'd be there, but, when he wasn't, and I cried.  
I loved that dog, he was such a great companion.

He was a runner.  So, he'd take off at every chance or interesting scent he picked up.
Even the police in three towns loved him.  
When I'd get the calls that he'd gotten loose and they had him, they'd tell me to take my time as they were enjoying his company in the station house.

Malamutes are strong willed and can be difficult, especially over food, so if there was an outdoor party or Bar-B-Q, those hosting the event weren't happy when he showed up.

They say Malamutes aren't that smart.
But, that Malamute figured out dozens of ways to escape from a fenced in yard, ways that you wouldn't dream of.

I now have a German Shephard and he's by far the smartest dog I've ever had and he's got a set of teeth like a crocodile.
I"m sure you can guess what my son named him.

On another note, I'm surprised you even spelled Euclidian Geometry correctly above. Congratulations, at least you got something right on here.

I excelled at Euclidian Geometry, perhaps that's why I'm able to differentiate so easily between a circle and a square  

Is it your position that no one else ever notice the red circle/square on the schematic ?

Is it also your position that no one else ever considered that the red circle/square might represent the D.A. ?

If these questions are too difficult, ask the guide dog that I gave you, "Coorshaw" for the answers.

[TEPaul]

If anyone would like to see a full-sized copy of the Colt PV map on Post #258 you're more than welcome to come to the barn/office and peruse it as much as you want. It's hanging on the wall. Just be sure to call first, though, because if I happen to mistake you for Tom MacWood you may get an ass full of buckshot.  

[TEPaul]

"Here is the plan the lies below red doodlings. As TEP mentioned in an earlier post the greens are not delineated on this map. Another interesting contrast, Colt was not adverse to the curve whereas the person (or persons) responsible for the red lines was a rectilinearist."


Isn't it interesting how 'red doodlings' and the 'rectilinearist' responsible for the red doodlings on the PV "blue/red line" topo map was the same person who was responsible for what has for years been perceived by so many to be the greatest golf course in the world and some of the greatest architecture in the world---ie Pine Valley?  

[TEPaul]

"I recall my mentor, Sherlock Holmes, using a magnifying glass to "blow up" the details of schematics he was examining.
In my numerous conversations with Dr Watson he mentioned that the use of the magnifying glass and convex lenses dates back centuries upon centuries.  I didn't know if you were aware that people in the early part of the 20th century actually had that technology."


Patrick:

That appears to be the best reason yet why you should confine your investigations, opinions and discussions to things to do with your mentor Sherlock Holmes and his friend Watson who you've had numerous conversations with, as well as their interest in magnfying glass and convex lenses. It seems to be a better reason why you should stay away from investigations and discussions of Pine Valley and George Crump who apparently did not need magnifying glass and convex lenses to draw things on his map and understand how to build what he drew on his map.

[TEPaul]

"Is it your position that no one else ever notice the red circle/square on the schematic ?"

Not really since I never bothered to try to interview every single person who ever looked at that map particularly considering it has been hanging in the PV clubhouse for well over eighty years.  

"Is it also your position that no one else ever considered that the red circle/square might represent the D.A.?"

As far as I know no one considered that red circle as representing the DA and that includes two of PV's members who wrote two of the club history books who'd been members of PV collectively for about 120 years and with whom I've had numerous discussions on the the details of the architectural history of that course. And as far as another member who was fairly fixated on the history of the architecture of the course and who lived at Pine Valley for about forty years no one had ever thought to distinquish the blue and red lines on that map between Harry Colt and George Crump before so far as he and the club knew. But I do recognize there are a few who claim after-the-fact that they thought of such things before. Interesting that they never mentioned it before to anyone who had anything significant to do with the club and course, don't you think?      

[Bradley Anderson]

Maybe it has already been discussed here, but I don't think that bunker has been relocated to a different spot.

I think that everything about that hole has evolved so much that the bunker only appears to be moving in the different pictures. I have no doubt that it has been rebuilt or revetted several times, but I don't think anyone ever said lets relocate here closer or further from the green.

[TEPaul]

Bradley:

Perhaps. I can certainly see what you're saying. However, there is no doubt at all that the DA sure has gotten significantly deeper somehow and for some reasons over the years and it has also gotten significantly rounder and more conical and significantly smaller at its sand base over the years. It's sides have also become just about completely turfed and/or revetted over the years but that seems only logical given the way it's shaped and in the place that it's in.

[Patrick_Mucci]

That appears to be the best reason yet why you should confine your investigations, opinions and discussions to things to do with your mentor Sherlock Holmes and his friend Watson who you've had numerous conversations with, as well as their interest in magnfying glass and convex lenses. It seems to be a better reason why you should stay away from investigations and discussions of Pine Valley and George Crump who apparently did not need magnifying glass and convex lenses to draw things on his map and understand how to build what he drew on his map.[/SIZE]


Except, he NEVER built what was shown on the schematic/map fn the 10th hole.

He BUILT THIS INSTEAD.[/SIZE]

[TEPaul]

"Except, he NEVER built what was shown on the schematic/map fn the 10th hole.
He BUILT THIS INSTEAD."


Pat:

Honestly, what in the world is the point of trying to carry on a discussion about Pine Valley and Crump with you? Look what you just said above about that photograph!

Do you have any idea when that photograph was taken? Do you have any idea how long Crump worked on that golf course? Do you have any idea how long Crump drew features on that map? Have you ever even CONSIDERED any of those things and those questions??   

You can't produce that photograph and tell someone who knows something about the history of the architecture of that course that that photograph proves Crump could not have built the DA on that hole.

You're an idiot! You're completely hopeless! Why don't you just go back to having conversations with Doctor Watson or whatever Sherlock Holmes's friend's name was? Or talk to your latest dog and see what he has to say to your ramblings. Talk to anyone other than anyone on this thread!

[Bradley Anderson]

Bradley:

Perhaps. I can certainly see what you're saying. However, there is no doubt at all that the DA sure has gotten significantly deeper somehow and for some reasons over the years and it has also gotten significantly rounder and more conical and significantly smaller at its sand base over the years. It's sides have also become just about completely turfed and/or revetted over the years but that seems only logical given the way it's shaped and in the place that it's in.

I built a DA bunker on the par 3 17th hole at Midlane back in 1991. Unfortunately that hole was eliminated when they sold nine holes to development. But I built it about midway up the left hand side of the green right in to the collar. It really didn't see too much action, but it gave you something to think about when the pin was back left, back middle, and middle left. Once I saw a guy fall in it when he was lining up a putt and walking backwards. That was maybe the funniest thing I have ever seen on a golf course.

Anyways it did not get deeper with time because we were constantly adding sand to it. But I think if you had that kind of a bunker on a sandy environment like PV it would certainly get deeper with time, because the type of shot that you hit from that kind of bunker carries a lot of sand with it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bradley:

Perhaps. I can certainly see what you're saying. However, there is no doubt at all that the DA sure has gotten significantly deeper somehow and for some reasons over the years and it has also gotten significantly rounder and more conical and significantly smaller at its sand base over the years. It's sides have also become just about completely turfed and/or revetted over the years but that seems only logical given the way it's shaped and in the place that it's in.

I made the mistake of not recording its dimensions when I played from it 46 years ago.

It's also possible that the bunker has gotten shallower over time due to the fact that very little in the way of sand escaped the perimeter on that steep bunker.

At one time could there have been stairs leading down into the bunker ?

I built a DA bunker on the par 3 17th hole at Midlane back in 1991. Unfortunately that hole was eliminated when they sold nine holes to development. But I built it about midway up the left hand side of the green right in to the collar. It really didn't see too much action, but it gave you something to think about when the pin was back left, back middle, and middle left. Once I saw a guy fall in it when he was lining up a putt and walking backwards. That was maybe the funniest thing I have ever seen on a golf course.

Plumb Bobbing on a green can be dangerous.
I know of a fellow who was plumb bobbing and backing up when he stepped right off the green into an adjacent pond at the 16th (?) hole Loxahatchee.  He was subsequently appointed the unofficial Captain of the Loxahatchee Swim Team

Anyways it did not get deeper with time because we were constantly adding sand to it.

But I think if you had that kind of a bunker on a sandy environment like PV it would certainly get deeper with time, because the type of shot that you hit from that kind of bunker carries a lot of sand with it.

Bradley, that's not true.

When I first played the DA, over 45 years ago, it was shaped like an ice cream cone, with steep sides.
The amount of sand that escaped that bunker was de minimus.
The sand merely cascaded up into the sides and back down again.
The only area where sand might have been lost in quantity would have been backwards.
In addition, my guess is that the bunker received plenty of TLC from the staff.

[Mac Plumart]

Ok...as I mentioned earlier, I am following this thread with great interest.

Although, I find a lot of it entertaining and very funny...I have gotten lost as to where you guys are and what you are looking for and what has been accepted and what is being disputed.  Perhaps it is my stupidity that has gotten me lost in the midst of your collective genius...or maybe Sherlock Holmes, swim team captains, and dog names has confused the issue a smidge.   

You all are looking for the origins, dates, architect, etc...of the DA bunker on the 10th hole at Pine Valley, correct?

You've narrowed the time frame down relative to its creation from somewhere between 1913 and 1918...is that right?

It doesn't seem like there is any agreement as to who is the actual creator/designer...is there?  If so, who is claiming what and why?  And what is needed to provide the proof to satisfy all parties relative to the answer?

Thanks...I find this whole process very interesting and educational.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mac,

It goes beyond that.

There are a number of theories regarding the origin of the DA bunker, I'm just trying to get TEPaul to narrow the possibilities down since he has promoted two seperate, conflicting theories, and I'd like him to tell us which one he supports just so that we can eliminate the theory and continue with our quest, and, I don't care which one he chooses/rejects, although I do have my own view on the possibility of either.

Numerically, I just want to narrow down the viable theories.

[JESII]

Pat,

What sense does it make to narrow down the theories when they are just that, theories. If one is disproven, great...but to do it for the sake of convenience is foolish.

For what it's worth, I think your Creationist theory is much more likely than any Evolutionist theory...but I disagree that the placement moved from when it first appeared (1921 ?) to where it is currently...you used the word "considerably"...how would you define considerably?

Additionally, whether that Red circle is a circle or a rectangle (as you and Tom M are grasping to...), it is in basically the exact position relative to the tee and the center of the green as the as-built DA. Please note on the full Colt drawing that several of the holes do not have a closed front end to the green so there is evidence that the extended shaping on that hole is intended to be approach fairway, not green space so your contention that the circle/square is flanking (or adjacent) is wrong.

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

I'd agree based on what's been produced here to date.

[JESII]

Mike,

Mac did ask a question that you're probably more able to answer than I am...what are the dates of the last photo without the DA and the first photo with  it? Any idea? Not day or month, but at least the year will give us a reasonable guage...

Thanks

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