[Patrick_Mucci]

I recently visited Winged Foot West.

During my visit I observed a funny looking golfer with a huge mop of hair driving from the 18th tee.
Surprisingly, this individual hit a pretty good drive down the middle of the fairway.
I then thought back to 1974 when Hale Irwin played the hole, hit a good drive  and had to hit a 2-iron into the green.

In the ensuing 35 years the hole has been lengthened dramatically.

Yet, in the recent Open, Colin Montgomery hit a 7-iron into that green while others hit even less club.

How can architects replicate intended shot/shot values for the best golfers while at the same time accomodating play for the average or poor golfer.

Take # 18 at WFW. 
What would be required, in the way of distance, to force the best players to have to hit 2-irons into that green ?

Is it no longer possible to do because of the configuration/constraints of the land ?

Is the exercise one of futility because none of the old courses possess adequate land directly behind the original tees ?

Has the concept of having/forcing the best players to hit long irons into par 3's and par 4's on these courses become obsolete ?

Even on new courses, how can an architect provide a championship challenge for the best golfers while providing an enjoyable challenge for the mediocre to poor golfer.

I say it's getting impossible to serve two masters.

It's getting impossible to have those three factions interface with the same architecture.

So, what's the answer ?

 

[Jaeger Kovich]

Take # 18 at WFW. 
What would be required, in the way of distance, to force the best players to have to hit 2-irons into that green ?
My yardage book from the 2002 PGA says it is 450 yrds, 305 to the front of the fairway bunker... so you would have to make it 520 yrd par 4. (300 yrd drive, 220 yrd 2-iron)


Is it no longer possible to do because of the configuration/constraints of the land ?
No... that would ruin the hole, because nobody would come close to the bunker if you only shifted the tee... you would have to lengthen the hole from the bunker to the green... impossible because there is no more room to go back on the tee or shift the entire fairway either

Is the exercise one of futility because none of the old courses possess adequate land directly behind the original tees ?
Perhaps some do... WFW doesn't, although it has been lengthened over the years

Has the concept of having/forcing the best players to hit long irons into par 3's and par 4's on these courses become obsolete ?
With 7600 yrd courses I'm sure you they have to hit 3-irons on the newest tour courses... I'm sure there were plenty of 3 iron approaches a Bethpage. Maybe #5, #7 because they converted it to a par 4, maybe #12 and #15... WFW #16 another converted par 5 may have had 3-irons and #3 the par 3 as well.


As far as the rest goes... I would think it is very very difficult to design a hole where Tiger and myself both hit Driver-3iron in on the same hole... Just think his drive would go about 40 yards further, and still have to be 40 yards behind me because I'm hitting 3-iron 205 in and he is hitting his 3-iron around 240 when he wants to.... There would have to be some very carefully designed fairway bunkering and angles off the tee to all this to happen, let alone the distance problem

[Mike Nuzzo]

FYI -- 
   Mops are in Pat.

[Ronald Montesano]

Jaeger,
Hogan hit 1-iron into the 18th at Merion from 225...this year, the Walker Cup guys hit 4 iron.  Your 220 yard 2-iron is wishful thinking.  Try a 240 yard 2 iron, instead.  Now it's a 540 yard par four.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Ron - Even better!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Take # 18 at WFW. 
What would be required, in the way of distance, to force the best players to have to hit 2-irons into that green ?
My yardage book from the 2002 PGA says it is 450 yrds, 305 to the front of the fairway bunker... so you would have to make it 520 yrd par 4. (300 yrd drive, 220 yrd 2-iron)

That's impossible since extending the tee would bring you into the bunker and fairway on the 12th hole.


Is it no longer possible to do because of the configuration/constraints of the land ?
No... that would ruin the hole, because nobody would come close to the bunker if you only shifted the tee... you would have to lengthen the hole from the bunker to the green... impossible because there is no more room to go back on the tee or shift the entire fairway either

Is the exercise one of futility because none of the old courses possess adequate land directly behind the original tees ?
Perhaps some do... WFW doesn't, although it has been lengthened over the years

Has the concept of having/forcing the best players to hit long irons into par 3's and par 4's on these courses become obsolete ?

With 7600 yrd courses I'm sure you they have to hit 3-irons on the newest tour courses... I'm sure there were plenty of 3 iron approaches a Bethpage. Maybe #5, #7 because they converted it to a par 4, maybe #12 and #15... WFW #16 another converted par 5 may have had 3-irons and #3 the par 3 as well.

With warm and/or mild weather, I would doubt that any of those fellows would be hitting their 2-irons into par 4's.

How many believe that 7,600 is long for today's best players ?

As far as the rest goes... I would think it is very very difficult to design a hole where Tiger and myself both hit Driver-3iron in on the same hole... Just think his drive would go about 40 yards further, and still have to be 40 yards behind me because I'm hitting 3-iron 205 in and he is hitting his 3-iron around 240 when he wants to.... There would have to be some very carefully designed fairway bunkering and angles off the tee to all this to happen, let alone the distance problem

Tiger has indicated that he hit his 2-iron 280 yards.  If he hits his driver 320, that would mean that it would take a 600 yard par 4 in order for him to hit Driver - 2-iron.  If he hits his driver farther, then, you'd need an even longer par 4.

I don't know many existing par 4's that can be lengthened to 600 yards.

A "competition ball" would seem to address the dilema to some degree.

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

First of all, you've asked a trick question, because most pros do not carry a 2-iron anymore.

At Cape Kidnappers last year, the most exciting hole was the par-5 fourth.  We designed it as a 540-yard par-5, but for the Kiwi Challenge they built a tiny tee right off the back of the third green, which increased it to 590 or 600 yards.  This made the hole just long enough that Adam Scott and Anthony Kim had to go at the green with hybrid clubs or fairway woods ... and they weren't sure enough of the distance so they hedged to the left where there is a bunch of fairway but they couldn't easily get up and down.

Based on that, I'd say the driver-two iron would require a hole of 560 or 570 yards.  So, the answer to your other question is that if you want to force great players to hit a 2-iron into a green, you're going to have to build more par-5 holes.

[Bill Brightly]

Pat,

The idea that a great hole like this needs to be further lengthened is pretty sick.

Your question reminds me that the more I learn about golf course architecture, and the more I watch pro golfers hit the ball ridiculous distances, the less interest I have in pro golf.

And I think I will have a diminishing interest in the pro game until a ball rollback is instituted. Now I am a 3-hdcp, yuppie, baby-boomer, country club member...so if the PGA tour has a developing problem with MY demographic, they have problems.  There is simply too much disconnect between the game that the average golfer plays and the one the pros are playing today, and THAT is a problem.

So that, in turn, gives me hope that a rollback may have a chance. Certainly, the golf clubs can't afford to be installing all these new Tiger Tees in this economy.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom  Doak,

There was a time when a 600 yard par 5 was a challenge in that it required three consecutive shots of substantive distance.
Now, they hit these greens in two.
How long would a par 5 have to be to require the best players to hit driver, 3-wood, long iron ?
800+ yards ?

While there's been a trend away from 2-irons to hybrids, Hale Irwin didn't hit a hybrid into # 18 in 1974, thus, I had to context the question based on the same clubs.

 Building more par 5's would seem a major challenge since there seems to be almost universal agreement that good to very good par 5's are hard to come by, and rarely does a golf course offer 4 to 6 good to very good ones.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom  Doak,

There was a time when a 600 yard par 5 was a challenge in that it required three consecutive shots of substantive distance.
Now, they hit these greens in two.
How long would a par 5 have to be to require the best players to hit driver, 3-wood, long iron ?
800+ yards ?

If you really wanted them to hit a long iron, it would have to be 800 yards.  If you're content to make them hit two big shots so they can get a 140-yard approach, then you can take it down to 750.

While there's been a trend away from 2-irons to hybrids, Hale Irwin didn't hit a hybrid into # 18 in 1974, thus, I had to context the question based on the same clubs.

 Building more par 5's would seem a major challenge since there seems to be almost universal agreement that good to very good par 5's are hard to come by, and rarely does a golf course offer 4 to 6 good to very good ones.

I agree with you that it would be difficult to make all those 500+ yard holes interesting for the average golfer ... maybe you could make the course a par-72 or 73 for the pros and a par-70 or 72 for the ams.  But if I were building a course for Tour players, and I had unlimited space, I'd build six holes that were well over 500 yards to try and get them to flail away at the green with longer clubs.  And I'd build five or six par-3 holes, including three that were well over 200 yards.

[David Whitmer]

Like about every other aspect of life, technological advances have not been able to be stopped, and the game of golf, especially for the pros, has been changed. The pro game is simply different now than it was back in 1974 when Irwin won at WFW. Yesterday's most challenging and best courses need to adapt if they are to continue to challenge the professionals.

I remember watching Angel Cabrera, at Oakmont two years ago, hit like a 390-yard drive on #12. Clearly, that would have never happened back in the day. Yet, his winning score was +5. I'm guessing the course's defense now compared to earlier times is incredibly high rough, narrow fairways, and fast and undulating greens. It seems to me those traits are now needed to test the professionals, because obviously length no longer does.

I sincerely wish the ball wasn't going as far as it is, but sadly it's a reality that will not change. I think, if an architect has marching orders to create a stern test for the world's best players, he needs to beef the course up in areas other than yardage. Of course, once the golf course is built, the super needs to do his part to get the rough up and the greens firm.

[Bill_McBride]

Rolling back the (competition) ball is the only answer.  It's a function of space, there isn't enough. 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Isn't the 7 iron that Monty hit really a 5 iron of the past? Lofts have decreased dramatically in iron sets these days to give modern players the illusion of more distance.

[C. Squier]

Isn't the 7 iron that Monty hit really a 5 iron of the past? Lofts have decreased dramatically in iron sets these days to give modern players the illusion of more distance.

Exactly. 

As for WFW #18, it still foiled the 2nd best player in the world last time around.  I think it's just fine.  Not to mention that Hale Irwin was hardly the longest player on Tour when he won.  Not fair comparing what he hit and how far Tiger may hit his 2 iron. 

I ask again, why does anyone care what the pros hit?  Why even contemplate bastardizing WFW 18 just because super humans decend on it over 4 days maybe once a decade?

[archie_struthers]

 


This argument  can't be won by making the holes longer....so damn the torpedoes and grow the rough six to twelve inches long  for championship play ...until they get so sick and tired of hitting rescues off the tee that the players scream ...it won't take long if Tiger and Phil start losing to short straight hitters for something to happen...

if you want to win a war ....bring the heavy artillery!

[Mark Smolens]

Archie, that's hardly my idea of an interesting golf tournament. . . watching a succession of pitch outs.  You've got to come up with something better than that.  I fear the ball's the only real remedy.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

It's got to be difficult to impossible for you to accomodate a client that tells you that he wants you to build a course for 400 members that can provide a challenging test when it hosts a PGA or OPEN.

I would also imagine that the land requirements are significantly larger than a "member only" golf course.

How would you solve the problem of serving two masters ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Isn't the 7 iron that Monty hit really a 5 iron of the past?

I don't believe that the loft on his 7-iron equaled the loft on Hale Irwin's 5-iron.
If someone has proof of that I'd like to see it.

Lofts have decreased dramatically in iron sets these days to give modern players the illusion of more distance.

Could you provide the dramatic differentials in lofts ?
Have 3-irons become 1-irons ?

Exactly. 

As for WFW #18, it still foiled the 2nd best player in the world last time around. 


The inherent architecture of the 18th hole at WFW had little to do with Phil hitting his driver 80 yards off line into the tents.

I think it's just fine. 

How is it fine if the best players are hitting 9-irons into it ?

The AWT intended a long approach into that green, why shouldn't the integrity of the architectural intent be preserved or restored ?

Not to mention that Hale Irwin was hardly the longest player on Tour when he won. 

Where did he rank in driving distance in 1974 ?

Not fair comparing what he hit and how far Tiger may hit his 2 iron.

Of course it is, that's one of the primary points.

The architect designed the hole to be played with a mid to long iron, not wedges.
We saw the same thing at ANGC where the best players were hitting Sand Wedge into # 18, a hole that the original architects NEVER contemplated the approach club being a Sand Wedge, and, the Sand Wedge wasn't even invented when Jones and Roberts first set foot on the property. 

I ask again, why does anyone care what the pros hit? 


Because it fuels what the amateurs want to hit and course after course gets altered in order to defend itself against the onslaught of distance.

Why even contemplate bastardizing WFW 18 just because super humans decend on it over 4 days maybe once a decade?


You're missing the gist of this thread.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Pat,

Here is some food for thought on "creep" in iron lofts:

http://www.leaderboard.com/LOFTINFO.htm

AND they're creeping downwards:

http://www.mizunousa.com/equipment.nsf/1/10glf1-irons-mx/210487?opendocument&div=golf&cat=10glf1-irons-mx

[Jason Topp]

Isn't the 7 iron that Monty hit really a 5 iron of the past?

I don't believe that the loft on his 7-iron equaled the loft on Hale Irwin's 5-iron.
If someone has proof of that I'd like to see it.

Patrick - the charts below purport to show loft changes.  While it is from Wikepedia it appears consistent with other things I have read.  Any individual player may change these to taste:

7 and 9 irons are very close, as are 5 and 7 irons.



Trpical current standard specs

Iron            3       4      5     6     7        8       9      PW     AW    SW     LW
Loft[nb 1] 20°     23°  26°  29°   33°    37°    41°    45°     50°    55°     60°
Length (in)39     38.5  38  37.5   37    36.5     36     35.5   35.5   35.25   35

typical specs from the mid 90's and earlier:

Iron                1         2      3      4        5       6      7      8        9     PW    SW
Loft               17°      20°   24º   28º    32°    36°   40°   44°    48°   52°    56°
Length (in)     39      38.5    38    37.5   37    36.5   36   35.5    35     35     35


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_(golf)#cite_note-lie-4

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jason,

The charts you posted are meaningless, they're just charts and not indicative of the actual loft on Hale Irwin's 2-iron nor Monty's 7-iron.

What everyone seems to be forgetting is that 7-irons are noticeably shorter than 2-irons, and length affects distance.

[Jason Topp]

Jason,

The charts you posted are meaningless, they're just charts and not indicative of the actual loft on Hale Irwin's 2-iron nor Monty's 7-iron.

While I agree that the charts do not specifically give the lofts for those two clubs, they do indicate the standard at the time those clubs were used.  Unless someone has their actual specs for the years at issue, the charts are probably decent indicators of the specs for each player.

What everyone seems to be forgetting is that 7-irons are noticeably shorter than 2-irons, and length affects distance.

That is why I included length in the specs I listed and two examples where the lengths were the same and the lofts only 1 degree apart

[Ross Tuddenham]

From Patrick Mucci

“How long would a par 5 have to be to require the best players to hit driver, 3-wood, long iron ?
800+ yards ?”

Why would you want them to do so or why would you build such a hole? I am sure most of them can hit the fairway with the second shot so in essence it is just a long par four, becuase the approach is with a long iron.  In fact an easy long par four as the shot preceding the long iron to the green will be a long iron/hybrid and not a driver.

[archie_struthers]

listen guys slowing down the ball has been bandied about for years now....it isn't going to happen as long as the longer crooked hitters dominate the game and money lists   ...  you could affect this architecturally by the use of more and more water and penal bunkers, but  no one else could play the golf course...thus it wouldn't work  

however a tournament set-up that promoted accuracy over length is doable ...particularly by strangling the driving areas with gnarly
nasty rough


 promote if you hit it crooked you die by double bogey  perhaps then smash and gouge would lose it's cache

 ....when this occurred guys would find a way ton hit it straighter ...maybe a ball you could spin more ...and work back to the fairway like the old shotmakers and shapers..way back in the dark ages the softer ball was in vogue...because you could control the flight .....anyone remember....even then the pinnacles and hard balls went further...by a lot ...when Mr Woods and others started playing the Titleist  Professional over the balata it was really surprising....the professional felt like a super ball

at this point in time...when straight becomes the key to scoring  even the smash mouth golfers would agree to a slower ball ...as it would return their advantage

Mark we all know the ball needs to be rolled back ..but negotiating  like Neville Chamberlain with the manufacturers and elite players hasn't been all that

gotta cut them man ...right at the knees

[Patrick_Mucci]

From Patrick Mucci

“How long would a par 5 have to be to require the best players to hit driver, 3-wood, long iron ?
800+ yards ?”

Why would you want them to do so or why would you build such a hole?

To test their skills, to present them with an examination of their ability to hit three consecutive shots of considerable length on a par 5 just like every other golfer in the universe.

When AWT designed some of his par 5's at member courses, those members had to hit three consecutive shots of considerable length in order to reach the green in 3.  Why shouldn't the best players have to face the same test/examination ?

I am sure most of them can hit the fairway with the second shot so in essence it is just a long par four, becuase the approach is with a long iron. 


Then, it's your contention that the ability to hit two superior shots in a row, of considerable distance, presents the same demands as hitting three superior shots in a row, of considerable distance ?

Do you not recognize or understand the inherent purpose of a par 5 of considerable length, in terms of examining the relative skills of the golfer playing the hole ?

In fact an easy long par four as the shot preceding the long iron to the green will be a long iron/hybrid and not a driver.


I've only been playing golf for a few years so you'll have to explain that bit of logic to me.

Can you give me an example of an "easy", "long" par 4, say 500 yards.
Could you cite five such holes ?

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()