[Jon Spaulding]

A negative review by Huckaby; well, I guess it also got cold and snowed in Orange County (golf hell) this past week. The uniqueness of the older version shall be mourned. Can't recall being bludgeoned yet enjoying a round as much as a few times out there in the mid-90's. Would want to play this incarnation to judge for myself.

Is new #7 the old #3? Is new #4 the old #6?

Would love to see some photos labeling the "new" holes with the old hole #'s.

[Adam Clayman]

This photo appears to show that they did do some serious grading (or is it called f#$&ing up?)

There were no holes on this course that the hand of man was ever this evident.

What I'm referring to is the obvious cut, down from the natural grade, easily viewed on the far right side near the first sprinkler and the right side and rear of green.

In the words of Uncle Boab, What a pity!

Speaking of Uncle Bob,

Bob, You could've substituted America's last hometown in your last sentence, too.

[Jed Peters]

PS:  They allow "jeans" on the course?

You pay that much, they'll probably let you wear a tutu.

Oh, and you can wear jeans, but I think "jorts" are not allowed.

[James Bennett]

I cannot say I would like to spend time in an hotel in Seaside, no matter what the grade.

Bob

Bob

in 2002 my wife and I stayed at the Best Western at Seaside, that is on the beach (yes, literally ON THE BEACH).  It was the National Bearded Collie dog show (at the showgrounds) and the hotel was full of dogs.  It was a wonderful few days, my second best few days in Monterey.  How did that hotel get approved ? (perhaps in a similar manner to the Fort Ord discussions).

However, Seaside itself didn't have much to inspire us. Especially compared to Monterey, Carmel and Pacific Grove (plus that enclave in between the last three towns).  Interesting neighborly contrasts.

James B

[Mike Benham]

This photo appears to show that they did do some serious grading (or is it called f#$&ing up?)

There were no holes on this course that the hand of man was ever this evident.

To clarify, the hole in the photo that you are referring to is on the Blackhorse 18, perhaps that is why it is not recognizable as a hole from Bayonet ....

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike is correct - that is a hole on Blackhorse that Tommy pictured and Adam commented on.   I didn't play Blackhorse but saw a lot of it (as you can from Bayonet).  From what I could tell the changes weren't of the earth-moving variety, not much, but more the same as what went on at Bayonet:  new greens, new bunkers, new grass, massive tree removal.

Jon (and Mike):  well a lot of the brutality is still there, just in a different (and more common) form... it's now quite penal fairway bunkers that do the work of the old trees and underbrush.  Heck in the end I really believe there will be far more Lous (who like it how it is now) than crazy me's (who liked it how it was before).  I just will defend quite strenuously that the course is now completely devoid of charm or soul.

The front nine routing is completely changed.  Also the holes look so different now from Tommy's pictures in March< I seriously couldn't recognize some of his pics.  Think massive tree removal, some bunkers continuing to be tweaked, massive areas of dirt now graded for houses, streets added... it's just a completely different place now, and it's most glaring on that front nine.

Anyway here's how it goes now, new v. old. As I say I have no photos, but if you played it much before, you ought to be able to get it from this.

1 - same
2 - same - and Mike it is still brutal - oh not so much as the 80s as underbrush is gone, but it's still a very tough golf hole.
3 - old #9 - short par 4 uphill - fairway bunkers added
4 - old #6 - par 3 - pretty much the same, bunkers and green tweaked
5 - old #7 - short par 4 - cool unique green with back shelf lower than front GONE...
6 - old #8 - par 3 - green massively tweaked, elephant humps added, plus bunkering completely changed
7 - old #3 - somewhat the same, fairway bunkering added
8 - old #4 - still 600 yard par 5, but now massive fairway bunkering added... wait till you see this....
9 - old #5 - fairway moved way to the left, r to l dogleg created.  Pine grove added in corner.  Massive grading for houses on right, where old 5 fairway used to be.  Street to service the houses by tee.  Green in same place, but more bunkering added near green.  Oh, fairway bunker on left as well.  Stone bitch of a hole, as it used to be... but it's REALLY gonna be devoid of charm when those houses get added... play it now lest ye later puke.

The routing on the back nine is basically the same, although some directions have changed... I described all of this in my initial post on this thread.

TH

[Jon Spaulding]

I can't believe those jerks wiped out the old 7th green. The pin locations were sublime, for a hole of that length (especially the upper/front left).

Old #4 was a heck of a hole, sans FW bunkers. Always reminded me of 16 Lake; if you're left you can pray to God all you want, but even he can't help.

I don't like the idea of old #3 with FW bunkering and tree clearing. The dated version's RH side was so "unfair/penal/stupid/WTF" that at some level, it made sense from a strategic standpoint.

[Nick Church]

Maybe this will help.  Not up to date, but it does capture Bayonet's front nine.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jon:

I believe you'll be ok with new 7 / old 3.  It's not all that much different.  The others, well... you're just gonna have to see for yourself.  You won't believe new 8/ old 4.  In fact I don't think there's anywhere for you to hit your tee shot there... you quite seriously might be best off laying up to 230 or so off the tee, taking the very penal fairway bunkers out of play.   This on a 600+ yard golf hole....

And new 5/old 7 made me weep damn near as much as new 11 or new 12....

Oh well.  RIP Bayonet, at least the crazy version you and I knew.  Wait till you see all the streets, house plots, infrastructure...

And Nick, thanks.  That does more or less capture the front nine of Bayonet.  Just add some more "infrastructure" in the far left middle... a street going up to serve the house plots now in the triangle between the golf holes down there.... but the golf holes are all pretty much as is today.. more tree clearing done though.

One very big plus of the whole thing, which I have been remiss to mention, and which shows in the pic:  they now have one hell of a great practice area.

TH

[Bob_Huntley]

I cannot say I would like to spend time in an hotel in Seaside, no matter what the grade.

Bob

Bob

in 2002 my wife and I stayed at the Best Western at Seaside, that is on the beach (yes, literally ON THE BEACH).  It was the National Bearded Collie dog show (at the showgrounds) and the hotel was full of dogs.  It was a wonderful few days, my second best few days in Monterey.  How did that hotel get approved ? (perhaps in a similar manner to the Fort Ord discussions).

However, Seaside itself didn't have much to inspire us. Especially compared to Monterey, Carmel and Pacific Grove (plus that enclave in between the last three towns).  Interesting neighborly contrasts.

James B

James,

How they got the approval to build on the beach is beyond me, but as I have said before, money moves mountains.

Local lore has it that there have been more "deep emotional experiences"  at the Best Western on Beach than there have been at the Mustang Ranch.

Bob

[JohnV]

Local lore has it that there have been more "deep emotional experiences"  at the Best Western on Beach than there have been at the Mustang Ranch.

Bob

Must be the crashing waves.  Or perhaps it is the annual Rules Seminar that we conduct there.

[Pat Burke]

Mike is correct - that is a hole on Blackhorse that Tommy pictured and Adam commented on.   I didn't play Blackhorse but saw a lot of it (as you can from Bayonet).  From what I could tell the changes weren't of the earth-moving variety, not much, but more the same as what went on at Bayonet:  new greens, new bunkers, new grass, massive tree removal.

Jon (and Mike):  well a lot of the brutality is still there, just in a different (and more common) form... it's now quite penal fairway bunkers that do the work of the old trees and underbrush.  Heck in the end I really believe there will be far more Lous (who like it how it is now) than crazy me's (who liked it how it was before).  I just will defend quite strenuously that the course is now completely devoid of charm or soul.

The front nine routing is completely changed.  Also the holes look so different now from Tommy's pictures in March< I seriously couldn't recognize some of his pics.  Think massive tree removal, some bunkers continuing to be tweaked, massive areas of dirt now graded for houses, streets added... it's just a completely different place now, and it's most glaring on that front nine.

Anyway here's how it goes now, new v. old. As I say I have no photos, but if you played it much before, you ought to be able to get it from this.

1 - same
2 - same - and Mike it is still brutal - oh not so much as the 80s as underbrush is gone, but it's still a very tough golf hole.
3 - old #9 - short par 4 uphill - fairway bunkers added
4 - old #6 - par 3 - pretty much the same, bunkers and green tweaked
5 - old #7 - short par 4 - cool unique green with back shelf lower than front GONE...
6 - old #8 - par 3 - green massively tweaked, elephant humps added, plus bunkering completely changed
7 - old #3 - somewhat the same, fairway bunkering added
8 - old #4 - still 600 yard par 5, but now massive fairway bunkering added... wait till you see this....
9 - old #5 - fairway moved way to the left, r to l dogleg created.  Pine grove added in corner.  Massive grading for houses on right, where old 5 fairway used to be.  Street to service the houses by tee.  Green in same place, but more bunkering added near green.  Oh, fairway bunker on left as well.  Stone bitch of a hole, as it used to be... but it's REALLY gonna be devoid of charm when those houses get added... play it now lest ye later puke.

The routing on the back nine is basically the same, although some directions have changed... I described all of this in my initial post on this thread.

TH

#2  The type of hole that influenced how you thought about the whole day.  At long ago ancient q schools, I decided to hit 2, 2 irons and bounce it on the fairway level green.  Did not ever want to mess with the 40 foot Hoovers on either side.
(new) #3   (old 9)This hole was always about the green.  It was one of the hardest shots I ever had with a short iron, because I either hit it 10 feet above the hole *now having a lay up putt ) or just enough spin to see it trickling back to the front.  Never felt it unfair though.  Did this hole retain the green slope?
new 4  (old 6)   Looks like an improvement here.  Was actually a breather hole for me in tournaments
New#5 (old 7)  Hit everything from driver to 4 iron off this tee trying to find the perfect yardage to different pins.  Was definitely a green that made a simple tee shot difficult.  can't believe they gor rid of it
New 6  (old    Always hated this hole.  Used to lay up to front left fringe to leave some semblance of a chance to make 3.  Green was too severe at tournament speeds and had one usable pin.  Change here could be good if done well
New 7 (old 3)  The tight corridor, and deceptive uphill second made it difficult to get a ball close even with a short club.  The old front bunker was death, so it led to a lot of difficult little pitches from just off the back
New 8  (old 6)   New bunkers look so wrong here.  This was a great, long par 5 with a well shaped dog leg, that required 3 well thought out and well struck shots.  Missing the fairway (even after the trees were raised up) often led to a mid iron 3rd shot to a deceptive and difficult to read green
New 9 (old 5)   I believe old 5 was the best hole on the course.  There was a small level area on the left landing area which still left a long approach.  The slope in the rest of the fairway mad an already tough shot pretty scary.  And the hole played about 40 yards longer than the yardage.  Missing the green always left a difficult recovery, and other than what seemed to always be conditioning problems on this hole, it was a pretty straight forward green.
Sounds like overall they took a unique, quirky and at times goofy course and have made it "an Orange County"housewife.  Eye candy, beautiful, but more than anything, a high maintenance, over-"worked" headache

[Mike Benham]

For comparative purposes, here are a few from Bayonet, circa 2005:

#2:





Old #7, new #5 (I think):





#11:

[Tom Huckaby]

Pat:

Great comments.  My guess is that if you had to play this course to make a living (as you did), well... on the one hand it's a hell of a lot more "fair" now, but on the other, the greens have been tricked up SO MUCH that I wonder it you would prefer it overall now or then?  And I am talking about in terms of earning your livlihood by making a score on this course.  What you gain in fairness off the tee, you lose big time in shots into and around greens and in putting.

To answer some questions:

new 3, old 9:  they ADDED contour to the green.. made it more of a defined tier... but the main change is the addition of a fairway bunker.

new 6, old 8 - the green is MUCH more severe in terms of contour than it was, as it seems to have kept the general right to left, but added an internal elephant... if you hated it before you will despise it now.

new 9, old 5 - well said re how it was, but it's nothing like that at all anymore.  RIP a great golf hole.  It is still VERY tough, however.

In any case re all the rest, and how it plays for us not forced to make our living grinding out a score on this course, well... this does rather say it perfectly:

Sounds like overall they took a unique, quirky and at times goofy course and have made it "an Orange County"housewife.  Eye candy, beautiful, but more than anything, a high maintenance, over-"worked" headache

BINGO!

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike B:

Thanks.  You have all of those labelled correctly.  RIP those quirky, overtreed, awfully brutally difficult, but oh so character-filled golf holes.  Each of their replacements is perfectly fine, and perfectly forgettable... with the exception of #2, I guess, which still is a pretty damn good hole.

TH

[Pat Burke]

Pat:

Great comments.  My guess is that if you had to play this course to make a living (as you did), well... on the one hand it's a hell of a lot more "fair" now, but on the other, the greens have been tricked up SO MUCH that I wonder it you would prefer it overall now or then?  And I am talking about in terms of earning your livlihood by making a score on this course.  What you gain in fairness off the tee, you lose big time in shots into and around greens and in putting.

To answer some questions:

new 3, old 9:  they ADDED contour to the green.. made it more of a defined tier... but the main change is the addition of a fairway bunker.

new 6, old 8 - the green is MUCH more severe in terms of contour than it was, as it seems to have kept the general right to left, but added an internal elephant... if you hated it before you will despise it now.

new 9, old 5 - well said re how it was, but it's nothing like that at all anymore.  RIP a great golf hole.  It is still VERY tough, however.

In any case re all the rest, and how it plays for us not forced to make our living grinding out a score on this course, well... this does rather say it perfectly:

Sounds like overall they took a unique, quirky and at times goofy course and have made it "an Orange County"housewife.  Eye candy, beautiful, but more than anything, a high maintenance, over-"worked" headache

BINGO!

I'm mixed hearing about the fairway bunkers.  Sometimes, bunkers can add so much, but one of the things I thought was cool about the Fort was the LACK of fairway bunkers, and how the tee shots were still threatening without them
MORE contour on old 9 is scary, and if old 8 is that bad, I would simply drive past it to play the next hole, it must suck badly

[Tom Naccarato]

Sounds like overall they took a unique, quirky and at times goofy course and have made it "an Orange County"housewife.  Eye candy, beautiful, but more than anything, a high maintenance, over-"worked" headache

You forgot to add: ...while also made for "Orange County" husbands, as a place to retreat, smoke a good Cohiba while telling lies how much their stock portfolios are worth.....

[Tom Huckaby]

On the nose again, Pat.  That is EXACTLY what was cool about the old Bayonet - it was the toughest course in all of Norcal, and without hardly any fairway bunkers.  The only other course like it was of course Olympic Club - Lake.. but of course that's where the similarities ended.  In any case I keep harping on this, but it used to be unique - now it's just like most all other courses.

Re old 8, you may have to skip it.  The green is pretty crazy now.  

[Pat Burke]

Sounds like overall they took a unique, quirky and at times goofy course and have made it "an Orange County"housewife.  Eye candy, beautiful, but more than anything, a high maintenance, over-"worked" headache

You forgot to add: ...while also made for "Orange County" husbands, as a place to retreat, smoke a good Cohiba while telling lies how much their stock portfolios are worth.....

Or USED to be worth

[Tom Naccarato]

Exactly my point!

[SB]

I have to admit I'm with Lou although I should state that I have a personal bias.  I haven't played the full new Bayonet, but I played both courses just before the renovation and the 1/2 and 1/2 mix a couple months ago and really liked the new versions MUCH better.  I appreciate that the old courses were unique, but I found them to be stupidly hard, conditioned terribly and totally unenjoyable.  Maybe I'm just not a good enough golfer to appreciate a course like that.  I also didn't grow up playing the course and I don't have any emotional attachment.  I did find one new hole (BH #12, I think) to be completely awful, at least the first time around, because I hit my shot exactly where I wanted and found myself in another fairway.  Other than that, I thought it was great.  $160 bucks great?  That's a different issue, but my opinion of the courses still stands.

[Tom Huckaby]

I have to admit I'm with Lou although I should state that I have a personal bias.  I haven't played the full new Bayonet, but I played both courses just before the renovation and the 1/2 and 1/2 mix a couple months ago and really liked the new versions MUCH better.  I appreciate that the old courses were unique, but I found them to be stupidly hard, conditioned terribly and totally unenjoyable.  Maybe I'm just not a good enough golfer to appreciate a course like that.  I also didn't grow up playing the course and I don't have any emotional attachment.  I did find one new hole (BH #12, I think) to be completely awful, at least the first time around, because I hit my shot exactly where I wanted and found myself in another fairway.  Other than that, I thought it was great.  $160 bucks great?  That's a different issue, but my opinion of the courses still stands.

SB:

Totally fine, totally understandable.  As I have written, many will likely share your opinion.  I will be interested if you continue to have this opinion after you play the full new 18 at either course, however.... what you saw with the 1/2 and 1/2 is not at all what is there today... of course depending on how long ago it was.  Did you see all the new streets and infrastructure and house plots permeating Bayonet?

In any case, my take comes down to this:  I find nothing at all unique about what's there now.  It used to be unique in every conceivable way.  And in terms of difficulty, well it was stupid hard then, it's stupid hard now, just in a much more commonly-seen way.

TH

[SB]

I played in early August, and the roads and such were in.  I only saw on place where it bothered me was the green on Bayonet 8, where the lots were pretty close to the green.  Otherwise I didn't think they were a problem.  Of course I'm used to development golf where I use the houses to straighten out my slice.  I haven't played much norcal golf, but I found them very unique to my experience.  It's also interesting as we usually have similar taste, as Pasatiempo and Riverbend in Fresno are two of my most enjoyable rounds.

[Tom Huckaby]

I played in early August, and the roads and such were in.  I only saw on place where it bothered me was the green on Bayonet 8, where the lots were pretty close to the green.  Otherwise I didn't think they were a problem.  Of course I'm used to development golf where I use the houses to straighten out my slice.  I haven't played much norcal golf, but I found them very unique to my experience.  It's also interesting as we usually have similar taste, as Pasatiempo and Riverbend in Fresno are two of my most enjoyable rounds.

SB:

Many thanks for the explanation.  I guess it comes down to that you had never seen the course as it once was.  Compared to other development golf courses, well... this one comes off looking just fine.  Man if you could have seen it how it once was....

Yours is a much more fair way to look at it.  The course is what it is, NOW.  Based on that and that alone, I would say it's very tough, with nice conditions, and some interesting shots to be faced.  It does allow some nice far-away views of the ocean.  Most will enjoy it, although higher-handicappers better practice their sand game and one and all better prepare for some putting humiliation.

I just can't possibly get over what once was.  I'm sure you can understand.

And in terms of tastes, well... this course both old AND new is 100% the opposite of what I tend to prefer.  But again, it was so damn unique that I loved it so.... as the ultimate paragon of the test of golf.  Most hated it for just this reason.  I definitely liked having it there, to keep one and all humble.  It still SORT OF works for this... but no more so than a bunch of other courses.  So yes, RIP Bayonet.  Long live the new version.

I just do continue to see little reason to return.

TH

[Lou_Duran]

Thomas,

I think the problem (s) you have with the "New" might have something to to do with what was there before at a very affordable price point and not the quality of the repositioned course.

As I noted earlier, I played the "old" Bayonet around the time of Benham's pictures, and while it was a good enough course, other than its location, it was nothing special.  The maintenance meld was particularly bad and the architectural bones were not at a level that, in my opinion, deserved protection.  The course was unnecessarily difficult due those evergreens and the high rough protecting very narrow fairways.  I take your word that it was even harder before the tree branches were trimmed a few feet above groundlevel.  With some allowances for the masochists amongst us, getting your brains beat is not fun at any price.

Perhaps the operators of the "New" Bayonet will find that the market won't support $160 green fees.   I got a $75 gf at Chambers Bay (after 1:00) this October, considerably lower than a year ago when I passed on paying something closer to $200.  Perhaps the price will settle closer to $60, and maybe then the changes won't seem so offensive.   

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