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Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
Mike , This was my favorite hole on the front 9. We played the West tees at 130 yds and it was a 9 or a wedge for the five of us-oops,yes we moved along quickly. I thought this was one of the scariest , but manageable shots if you hit the shot right. It is penal and 4 is a good # if you miss the green. Just a great short par 3. One of my top 10 short par3's.    Jack

Jack,
Hey, why not a gangsome?  I love those early or late season groups with 6 or 7 filing down a fairway and lots of chatter going on -- no one is safe from verbal abuse for a flubbed shot, but it is always FUN!   :)

Thanks for the vote of confidence on #9!

Mike

Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
Is that an alternate hole in the 1st pic?  Perhaps a 19th hole?

Kalen,
The chipping green would be a great long 3 from the turnaround circle -- hitting into the slope and lots of movement for different shot options on the course -- somewhat severe in spots but intended to mimic some of the kickback situations you encounter in places on the course, so it is a fun green to mess around with.  The crew also keeps it consistent with the on-course green conditioning, so it is very realistic.
Mike

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
I never saw the course before the trees along 17 and 10/18 were cut, but Im almost thinking I like the look a little better than without trees...

I agree, and did not mind the stark contrast beteen the front nine and holes 10 and 18.   For me, the difference is not significant.

I liked the naturally treed portions of the course, and unlike Ed Getka, I prefer the back nine. 

Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
The 10th was originally a bunkerless hole with dense trees on the right between the 10th and 18th holes.  The existing back tee was added a few years ago and there is a spot to add another tee (for 465+ yards) along the entrance drive if necessary in the future.  The original back tee is the one at 393 and the regular tee was just in front of that on the same landform.  I really liked the hole in the original state and it was definitely more subtle than the bolder holes on the front.  The change in transition was magnified by making the turn to the back nine and this was ultimately one of the reasons for the changes I will discuss.

The right side of the fairway had agronomic issues for the fescue, due to the mass of forest to the south of the hole (between 10 and 18) and we thinned out the trees for a couple years to improve the turf quality, but it was still behind the open turf areas elsewhere on the course.  Owner Ed Walker recommended adding bunkers to help with the transition from front to back and we added the 3 (circular) bunkers on the left, the large bunker about 50 yards short and right of the green (tucked into a couple of large beech trees on a small knoll), and the large bunker at the left approach these were an immediate improvement to the transition from the open front to the back.  But the turf issues continued and when we looked at thinning the trees some more, it would have been open, bare sticks and not appealing.  So we looked at taking all the trees out and adding bunkers on the side of the ridge to both holes this openness really improved the flow from front to back and solved the agronomic issues for the fescue.  As to the circular nature of the bunkers on the left there is a mainline on the left that affected their placement without changing a mainline routing and patching into big pipe (the pump station is in the range, so this is the main that feeds the back nine), but I think they have lost a little of their ruggedness since built and we should look into amending them a bit thanks for the critique!  The new back tee was added a couple years ago to give some teeth to the drive for the bigger hitters and it does change the way you look at the hole I have always liked the look uphill between the 2 ridges into the valley fairway and now the large rolling mound at the beginning of the fairway can really defeat a poor drive or propel an average to good drive and it has more effect than the upper tee, which gives one a freer feeling to just let one rip.

The hole is all natural between the ridgelines and presents different looks, depending on which tee you play from, and the concavity of the hole is actually quite a bit narrower than the other holes on the front that repel balls on parts of their generous, yet convex, fairways.  The second shot is definitely uphill but gives you a glimpse of the right front of the green with the false middle that distinguishes the right plateau of the green and serves as a backstop for pins in the very front.  The big roll in the left approach allows for a running shot to feed into the left middle bowl or front of the green.  And a cautionary note, the last 20 feet in the back center falls away.  Putts on this green are difficult to read but very makeable and not that punitive (definitely not as severe as the Downs 10th, Ed!).

Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
(have they built a formal clubhouse there?)
 

No, it is the same building, with a large covered deck on it and substantial plantings around it.  The clubhouse issue has proponents that want a more formidable building and others that like it just fine as is, with gas-grill food, sandwiches, and various beverages.

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Putts on this green are difficult to read but very makeable and not that punitive (definitely not as severe as the Downs 10th, Ed!).


Amen to that comment!  The 10th at the Downs may be the single most severe green I've ever played anywhere factoring in the pin position and green speed we faced the day we played it. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Perhaps this is odd, but I am a bit surprised by the bunkering down the left of this hole.  It looks out of scale with hummocks.  Does anybody think these should be bigger bunkers or perhaps removed?  They seem to be betwixt and between.  I was also thinking more nasty looking bunkers down the left might encourage folks to pull a Schmidtie. 
Ciao

The 10th was originally a bunkerless hole with dense trees on the right between the 10th and 18th holes.  The existing back tee was added a few years ago and there is a spot to add another tee (for 465+ yards) along the entrance drive if necessary in the future.  The original back tee is the one at 393 and the regular tee was just in front of that on the same landform.  I really liked the hole in the original state and it was definitely more subtle than the bolder holes on the front.  The change in transition was magnified by making the turn to the back nine and this was ultimately one of the reasons for the changes I will discuss.

The right side of the fairway had agronomic issues for the fescue, due to the mass of forest to the south of the hole (between 10 and 18) and we thinned out the trees for a couple years to improve the turf quality, but it was still behind the open turf areas elsewhere on the course.  Owner Ed Walker recommended adding bunkers to help with the transition from front to back and we added the 3 (circular) bunkers on the left, the large bunker about 50 yards short and right of the green (tucked into a couple of large beech trees on a small knoll), and the large bunker at the left approach these were an immediate improvement to the transition from the open front to the back. 


Mike

Thank you for the explanation.  Why did you choose small round bunkers on this hole?  Also, with the trees cleared, does there need to be that bunkering to help the transition?

Ciao
« Last Edit: January 21, 2009, 03:00:52 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2023: Clyne

David Neveux

A quick and interesting note on the 10th at CD.  The first time I played there did the back and forth thing three times, X.  Several plays have yielded quite the same results, but one late fall day 2 yrs. ago during a 36 session things really went my way.

1st go around, smashed a driver, had probably 60-80 yrds to a front right pin, NASTY.  Hit a nice little half wedge left of pin, came to rest about a 2 feet from the hole for a bird.

2nd go around, topped a driver, had 230 or more, obv. uphill to that little bitch of a green.  Hit a perfect choked up 3 wood, on the leftest line humanly possible, bounce short, and I lost it, couldn't see it.  Having known the tendency's of this green, I figured It had about a 1 / 100 chance of holding the green.  I've seen plenty of pretty nice shots, from 150 - 170 yards that refuse to hold the green.  Anyways, when I arrived at the green I was happy to find my ball in a nearly identical spot and went on to make my second bird of the day.  So all in all I hit driver / lob wedge driver / 3-wood for two birds that day.  Later that night I did not hit the Mega-Millions Jackpot. 

Sorry for the interruption, but I've been wanting to share this for a long time. 

Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0

Mike

Thank you for the explanation.  Why did you choose small round bunkers on this hole?  Also, with the trees cleared, does there need to be that bunkering to help the transition?

Ciao

As to the circular nature of the bunkers on the left there is a mainline on the left that affected their placement without changing a mainline routing and patching into big pipe (the pump station is in the range, so this is the main that feeds the back nine), but I think they have lost a little of their ruggedness since built and we should look into amending them a bit thanks for the critique!

Sean,
You needed to read a little further in my reply.  One, the mainline affected where we could easily add something and we didn't want to chop up the big pipe.  Two, limited time and equipment -- I only had a small backhoe to do the additions and x-time to do it, plus the more important bunkers up near the green.  Circular/oval bunkers are not without precedence on the course, although not usually in such a large area -- I think the photos are not doing them justice to what they actually look like in the field and how they tie into the natural slopes.

Best,
Mike

Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
A quick and interesting note on the 10th at CD.  The first time I played there did the back and forth thing three times, X.  Several plays have yielded quite the same results, but one late fall day 2 yrs. ago during a 36 session things really went my way.

1st go around, smashed a driver, had probably 60-80 yrds to a front right pin, NASTY.  Hit a nice little half wedge left of pin, came to rest about a 2 feet from the hole for a bird.

2nd go around, topped a driver, had 230 or more, obv. uphill to that little bitch of a green.  Hit a perfect choked up 3 wood, on the leftest line humanly possible, bounce short, and I lost it, couldn't see it.  Having known the tendency's of this green, I figured It had about a 1 / 100 chance of holding the green.  I've seen plenty of pretty nice shots, from 150 - 170 yards that refuse to hold the green.  Anyways, when I arrived at the green I was happy to find my ball in a nearly identical spot and went on to make my second bird of the day.  So all in all I hit driver / lob wedge driver / 3-wood for two birds that day.  Later that night I did not hit the Mega-Millions Jackpot. 

Sorry for the interruption, but I've been wanting to share this for a long time. 

You are quite the "Playa" -- that will be more strokes for me the next time we play!   ;D

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Putts on this green are difficult to read but very makeable and not that punitive (definitely not as severe as the Downs 10th, Ed!).


Amen to that comment!  The 10th at the Downs may be the single most severe green I've ever played anywhere factoring in the pin position and green speed we faced the day we played it. 

Tim,

That is until you got to the 11th....
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

David Neveux

Mike,

With respect, I don't think so. ;D  Notice I didn't mention an "overall" score...should be rolling into the Kingsley get together as a solid 10 index. 

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Putts on this green are difficult to read but very makeable and not that punitive (definitely not as severe as the Downs 10th, Ed!).


Amen to that comment!  The 10th at the Downs may be the single most severe green I've ever played anywhere factoring in the pin position and green speed we faced the day we played it. 

Mike,
    You are quite right. Approach shots to #10 Kingsley won't roll back off the green into a front right bunker like at CD. :)

Tim,
    You must have hit a good shot on #11 if you think #10 is the toughest green you've ever faced. ;D
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Putts on this green are difficult to read but very makeable and not that punitive (definitely not as severe as the Downs 10th, Ed!).


Amen to that comment!  The 10th at the Downs may be the single most severe green I've ever played anywhere factoring in the pin position and green speed we faced the day we played it. 

Tim,

That is until you got to the 11th....


That is funny, I had the same thought and posted about it before I read your comment George.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
A quick and interesting note on the 10th at CD.  The first time I played there did the back and forth thing three times, X.  Several plays have yielded quite the same results, but one late fall day 2 yrs. ago during a 36 session things really went my way.

1st go around, smashed a driver, had probably 60-80 yrds to a front right pin, NASTY.  Hit a nice little half wedge left of pin, came to rest about a 2 feet from the hole for a bird.

2nd go around, topped a driver, had 230 or more, obv. uphill to that little bitch of a green.  Hit a perfect choked up 3 wood, on the leftest line humanly possible, bounce short, and I lost it, couldn't see it.  Having known the tendency's of this green, I figured It had about a 1 / 100 chance of holding the green.  I've seen plenty of pretty nice shots, from 150 - 170 yards that refuse to hold the green.  Anyways, when I arrived at the green I was happy to find my ball in a nearly identical spot and went on to make my second bird of the day.  So all in all I hit driver / lob wedge driver / 3-wood for two birds that day.  Later that night I did not hit the Mega-Millions Jackpot. 

Sorry for the interruption, but I've been wanting to share this for a long time. 

Just goes to show that the front right pin is TOO EASY. ;D It is an interesting green that gets in your head as soon as you get to the top of the steps coming up from #9. It requires absolute respect. Some think it is unfair, but I am not on that list.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

David Neveux

Fair ?

In my experience that is one of the rarest four letter words I've heard to describle that little baby. 


Brian_Sleeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Be happy that pin was front right, Dave, and not front left...

David Neveux

Slee,

I see what your doing, and I DON'T like it !!!  Always trying to drag us bald guys down.

Brian Cenci

Putts on this green are difficult to read but very makeable and not that punitive (definitely not as severe as the Downs 10th, Ed!).


Amen to that comment!  The 10th at the Downs may be the single most severe green I've ever played anywhere factoring in the pin position and green speed we faced the day we played it. 

The 10th is certainly one of the hardest greens anywhere you will ever see.  My best story on that green, having played many a round there, is I went back a few years ago and played with Nev and the assistant superintendent and a member in a real blood match (they closed us out on the 13th hole).  The pin was middle/frontish and all the way left.  I somehow hit it to the left of the pin and it didn't really kick right like I thought.  I was 1 foot off the green and only 6 feet or so from the pin, above the hole on the green.  Turned to the Assist-Super and said "Don, how do I get this up and down".  He turned to me and said, "Turn around and putt it to the back of the green and leave yourself a level 40 foot putt coming back."  I refused to do that and obviously my next shot was that damn bunker shot in front when you roll off.

I do think that the green has gotten harder over time.  I don't know who can confirm this but in the 15 years I've been playing there they have really softened the left side.  There used to be longer grass there right up to the fringe (now it is mowed shorter) and I really think the green, because of mowing patterns, has expanded to the left a little.  Don't know if there is a way to confirm that.  It just seems to me that around the green it has changed a little.



Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Putts on this green are difficult to read but very makeable and not that punitive (definitely not as severe as the Downs 10th, Ed!).


Amen to that comment!  The 10th at the Downs may be the single most severe green I've ever played anywhere factoring in the pin position and green speed we faced the day we played it. 

The 10th is certainly one of the hardest greens anywhere you will ever see.  My best story on that green, having played many a round there, is I went back a few years ago and played with Nev and the assistant superintendent and a member in a real blood match (they closed us out on the 13th hole).  The pin was middle/frontish and all the way left.  I somehow hit it to the left of the pin and it didn't really kick right like I thought.  I was 1 foot off the green and only 6 feet or so from the pin, above the hole on the green.  Turned to the Assist-Super and said "Don, how do I get this up and down".  He turned to me and said, "Turn around and putt it to the back of the green and leave yourself a level 40 foot putt coming back."  I refused to do that and obviously my next shot was that damn bunker shot in front when you roll off.

I do think that the green has gotten harder over time.  I don't know who can confirm this but in the 15 years I've been playing there they have really softened the left side.  There used to be longer grass there right up to the fringe (now it is mowed shorter) and I really think the green, because of mowing patterns, has expanded to the left a little.  Don't know if there is a way to confirm that.  It just seems to me that around the green it has changed a little.




Pretty similar to what we faced on the 10th.  I was on the fringe above the hole and putted the ball 90 degrees away from the hole with all the force of a 2-inch tap-in.  The ball rolled completely off the other side of the green!  Only after the fact did I realize that I was supposed to tap the 2-incher in the complete opposite direction of the hole instead of 90 degrees away!

Ed - Re: #11 you are forgetting the other obvious option - that I picked up before I even got to the green to attempt its difficulty!  Still, with the pins we faced and the putts I watched for two rounds we played I would have taken any putt on #11 over the repeated disasters we saw take place around the 10th.  The location was the closest thing to impossible (other than something absurd like a pin on an unpinnable spot of a green) I've ever seen.

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
The 11th hole is a par 3
180 from the gold tee
141 from the blue tee

This is a fine par 3, but it is tough to stand up to the par 3s on the front nine and the 16th to follow.  This holes claims the unfortunate task of batting lead-off for back-to-back all-world par 4s.  Because of the other standouts on the course - not because of the weakness of this particular hole - I find this to be the least entertaining of the short holes on the course.  For me it really completed what felt like a two-hole transition for me.

To the left of the tee is a nice stone wall, which can also be found on the left boundary of the par 5 14th hole.  When we played the 14th in the morning I asked Mike about the walls.  His response was that the owner wanted them included because they reminded him of Ireland (or something to that effect.)  During the afternoon round, Jack Crisham, who didn't join us for the morning round, mentioned how the wall on the 11th was reminiscent of Ireland.  I guess they pulled off the effect pretty well!

A single bunker guards the front center of the green, and another guards the rear.  To the left is some native grass and smaller trees - just enough to lose a stray ball as our group discovered.  A slight miss left will funnel the ball back to the green, but more than a few yards is not a good place to be (unless you perfectly plan the bounce off the skinny tree.)  The back left portion of the green (where the pin was located the day we played) is very small but relatively flat shelf.  Missing just off the green in that area was a great place to be - much better than most spots on the green to that pin. 

The larger portion of the green is well contoured and can provide some wild and fun putts.  I would have enjoyed a pin tucked just over the front bunker, as the green looks receptive to using the slope in the middle of the putting surface to feed the ball back to the hole.  Missing short and right or just right should funnel the ball further away from the hole.

All-in-all a fun, but less spectacular hole than the other par 3s on the property. 

The view from the back tee


The view from a much shorter tee box


A closer look at the green from the front


A look from the left side


And one final shot from behind



RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
The 11th has become a much better hole in the last couple of years with the tree clearing. I think there is even more wind to play with because of the tree clearing between 10 and 18. The slope in the front right seems to be more prominent, and intimidating, with the recent revisions. Pins on the right side can lead to some serious butt puckering.
Negotiating that back bunker, especially with a pin on that back shelf, can require nerves of steel along with an A+ bunker game.
Fun hole. But I agree with Tim in that it's not my favorite of the five.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
The front right portion of the 11th green is essentially a false front.  Almost every ball that hits the front right quarter rolls 5-10 yards off the green.  It's an oddity; there are no front or middle pin placements on the right third of the green.

Nick_Christopher

  • Karma: +0/-0
The eleventh is an example of how a hole fits into and adds to the completeness of the routing.  On a stand-alone basis, it is clearly not the most thrilling of the five one shotters, nevertheless it adds to the rhythm of the course.  After the ninth hole, the tenth and eleventh are very solid holes, but provide excellent balance and are a pleasant change from some of the more daunting and white-knuckle experiences from the front side.  Also, they are a brief interlude before the back side really heats up!

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
The eleventh is an example of how a hole fits into and adds to the completeness of the routing.  On a stand-alone basis, it is clearly not the most thrilling of the five one shotters, nevertheless it adds to the rhythm of the course.  After the ninth hole, the tenth and eleventh are very solid holes, but provide excellent balance and are a pleasant change from some of the more daunting and white-knuckle experiences from the front side.  Also, they are a brief interlude before the back side really heats up!

Nick, that is perfectly said and perfectly sums up #11 (and #10) in my mind.

#11 is the second consecutive hole that won't "knock your socks off" stepping up to the tee.  And once again, from the pictures and after only a couple rounds, one may tend to think the hole is inferior to most others on the course. 

I think eleven fits perfectly in its role as stated by Nick above.  However, it has one hell of a green with a lot of movement and very interesting/difficult/fun pin placements.  The top back shelf right in front of the rear bunker is especially tricky.

some pics from the website:


before the right-side tree removal


and after


this pic is very misleading...the green has MUCH more movement than shown here.  General movement would be from back left to front right



Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

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