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DanThis tour has been worth the wait. I am intrigued by several features:1. The "bottleneck" on the 9th is a great feature especially as it isn't really apparent form further back how damaging a miss right/left can be."I can attest that being in either of those bunkers is no fun."2. The "Boxcar" looks totally wild and it is a shame the trees low left can be cut back a bit to leave what would be a fun recovery for a load of golfers."The Trees on the Boxcar are nowhere near the green and do not affect play in any way."3. The Principal's Nose bunker complex is a bit wierd. Is there a decision to make off the tee or for the second which really brings home the importance of the namesake? "At over 300 yards generally this bunker is out of reach from the newer back tee. At the original hole length I think it would have been in play and something to be avoided though it clearly lacks the strategic role of its namesake. I think it was/is more of a factor for the shorter players who plays way out left to avoid the cross bunker and would have to carry it with their second shot. It does look cool though."4. The width of the course is awesome. I bet folks get caught out being non chalant off the tee and don't really figure out why the approaches aren't working out well. Are the greens kept firm?"On our recent trip the greens were quite firm. They have adopted a regime of rolling the greens every morning and its had paid off in the form of firmer and quicker greens."5. You are using a curious description of "cross bunker" a few times where there is clear space to go around the hazard. Does "cross bunker" carry a different meaning than what I think of as a purely carry hazard? It seems to me that these are really diagonal wing bunkers. Did fairway used to go both sides of these hazards?"I use cross bunker when the bunker crosses the ideal line of play such as on 6 and 9."6. The corner bunker on the 3rd fairway - is it a sucker play? It seems like if anything, the left edge or just left of the bunker is the line assuming one can carry the bunker, but not by too much - no?"Some may be able to carry the bunker but not many. The ideal line is to get as close as you can while staying to the left. If you wimp out and play safe you can add 20-30 yards to your 2nd shot."7. The green complex for #2 is very cool. Did the green used to come closer to the bunker and gulley?"No idea."Thanks for posting!Ciao
Do we know if Langford & Moreau were influenced in some way by the work of C.B. MacDonald / Seth Raynor? Patrick, a dissertation might be in order on that question.
Quote from: Dan Moore on October 23, 2008, 01:18:19 AMDo we know if Langford & Moreau were influenced in some way by the work of C.B. MacDonald / Seth Raynor? Patrick, a dissertation might be in order on that question. On photos alone many people would guess Raynor.
A few thoughts:-- On the Raynor/Macdonald connection to Langford. It's one of the more intriguing questions regarding Langford's work. As is obvious from Dan's excellent photo essay, Langford and his chief landscaper Moreau utilized what might be termed a highly engineered style re. their bunkering, pushed-up greens, and internal green contours. One might look at, for instance, this GCA essay of Sleepy Hollow: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/sleepyhollow1.html and think -- there has to be some kind of connection. To date, there has been no historical record (at least among the GCA Langford fans who have looked) demonstrating any connection between Raynor/Macdonald and Langford. But there are some interesting ties -- Langford (like Raynor, a civil engineer by training) studied at Yale, spent time on the East Coast, probably had access (because he was a very good golfer in his own right) to some of the East Coast's best-known courses, perhaps even NGLA, and settled in Chicago, where he ran a golf course along with his design efforts (and presumably knew about, perhaps even played, Chicago GC). It's all speculative, not really even circumstantial evidence, but the similarity of their work begs the question -- could two separate teams of architects/designers come up with such a striking look independently of each other? I have argued that the near-Redan 4th at Lawsonia bears too much similarity to a classic Redan for Langford not to have known about the Redan design concept (and there's no evidence that Langford ever traveled overseas to draw inspiration for his work). I have even argued that the boxcar 7th hole may be Langford's attempt at replicating the design philosophy of a Raynor/Macdonald Short.-- I'm not sure the second set of bunkers on the wonderful 6th properly qualifies as a Principal's Nose bunker, although as Dan suggests, it plays a different role for golfers of varying ability. For the shorter hitter, the initial cross bunker does suggest a line of play left, in which the second set of bunkers do need to be crossed. But I've always regarded the Principal's Nose concept to be one in which the bolder and riskier play is rewarded with an easier approach, i.e. slotting the drive on TOC to the right of the PN and left of OB right, which leads to an easier approach. To me, there is little benefit at all to be left of that second bunker complex, particularly given the green demands there -- the 6th green has a little shelf of a green area on the left side that (when it has a pin) is best approached from the right of the fairway. The 6th is probably the best par 4 at Lawsonia, and one of the outstanding par 4s you'll find, both in look and its strategic demands.-- Several of the pictures (on holes 5 and 6) show a beautifully crowned tree that has not been removed, and should not ever be, in my view. GCA contributer Brad Swanson has dubbed this the "aiming tree" in a previous thread, and it can be used as something of an aiming point/reference point for three separate holes -- 5,6, and 8.-- The 8th is one of my favorite short par 4s, in part because the visuals on the tee (much enhanced by recent tree removal) are so deceptive. Dan suggests the proper route off the tee is over the cross bunker; I've seen it played best when the golfer takes a more aggressive line left of the cross bunker -- the fairway left beyond the cross bunker really opens up (of course, it's unseen from the tee, another marvelous use of blindness by Langford), and provides a much more open approach into the green, which is one of the smallest at Lawsonia and nearly completely surrounded by sand.
Quote from: Anthony Gray on October 23, 2008, 08:41:29 AMQuote from: Dan Moore on October 23, 2008, 01:18:19 AMDo we know if Langford & Moreau were influenced in some way by the work of C.B. MacDonald / Seth Raynor? Patrick, a dissertation might be in order on that question. On photos alone many people would guess Raynor.http://www.golfclubatlas.com/opinionchalfant.html