[Tom Huckaby]

Re Shinnecock, I'd concur it is likely the best, truest test of golf in America.

I just don't think that equals "best."

I think it's placed just about correct.  GW's #1 works for me.

TH

[Tom_Doak]

John K:

Regarding your note about Atlantic City, it's hard to sort out what to do with some redesigns.

I have asked the magazines NOT to put my name on the courses for which we have done restoration and consulting work -- even a place like The Valley Club where we've rebuilt all the greens and changed some back closer to the way they used to be.  For that reason, I don't think Tom Fazio's name should be on Augusta or Oakmont, either.  He hasn't changed the routing; he hasn't redesigned the greens.

Atlantic City is a bit different.  We basically kept five holes intact from the previous course (with fairway regrading) and changed a lot of the rest.  We changed the routing in a couple of places, affecting several holes.  And I redesigned most of the greens except for the five mentioned above, which we restored to their original contour because we felt it was worth it.

So, clearly Atlantic City is a hybrid design.  Why it counts on the "Classic" list and not the "Modern", I'm not sure ... and I wonder if it would rank as high on the modern, because I don't think it's as good as some of my other courses that aren't ranked at all.  But, I just read the rankings nowadays.

[Tommy Williamsen]

One of the more interesting things about the "Classic" list is the lack of courses built between 1930 and 1960.  If I counted correctly, there are only three: Point"o Woods, The Dunes, G&BC, and Champions.  I know it was some kind of black hole where few courses of note were built but what are some worthy contenders?

Ok let me revise the date to 1940.

Still, are there not contenders for this twenty year period?

[John Kavanaugh]

Tom,

Are you going to allow Klein, Bahto and Olson to be listed as architects of Bandon IV in front of Urbina?

[Jim Nugent]

I wish that along with the modern and classic ratings, Golfweek also gave us a combined rating, ranking the oldies and the modern designs together. 

[John Kavanaugh]

I wish that along with the modern and classic ratings, Golfweek also gave us a combined rating, ranking the oldies and the modern designs together. 

I wish they would have a world top 100.  With the devaluation of the dollar it would make trips over seas so much more affordable.

[Tim Leahy]

How does Riviera get ranked lower than LACC? Olympic lower than SFGC? Do they consider tournament history or majors at all?

[Brad Klein]

Od Macdonald is a Doak-Urbina design. Any other help is purely consultatory, not that they need any.

[Matt_Cohn]

How does Riviera get ranked lower than LACC? Olympic lower than SFGC? Do they consider tournament history or majors at all?

I hope they don't. Why, do you think Olympic should be ranked higher, or SFGC lower?

[Jim Franklin]

How does Riviera get ranked lower than LACC? Olympic lower than SFGC? Do they consider tournament history or majors at all?

Have you played either pair? I have played both and prefer SFGC to Olympic (very close though), but I prefer Riviera to LACC.

[jkinney]

jkinney,

It is my favorite course in America.  Have you noticed the ongoing green expansions back as far as possible to their original dimensions?   If so, would you please share your thoughts?

Wayne,
   Shinnecock has been in a constant state of renovation since Mark Michaud came over from Pebble and Chas. Stevenson took over the Green Committee. The enlargement of the greens that you mention has been accompanied by the shaving of large greenside chipping areas. Tree removal and/or thinning has been constant and is nearly complete (except for the copse left of the 4th and 6th fairways , which is wetlands). New mowing equipment was procured, and a state-of-the art sprinkler system was installed in the autumn of '05 (with the same folks installing the same system at The National in the autumn of '06). The bunkers have been renovated without redesign.

The end result is that what I've always considered the hardest FAIR test of golf is now also one of the best conditioned. The Sunday morning tragedy during the '04 Open (a USGA blunder witnessed firsthand) did nothing to diminish my feeling that the 18 holes test every club in the bag from every wind direction every time Shinny is played in a breeze. Having played CP and PV, the two above Shinny in the GW ranking, each on a number of occasions, I attest to their greatness. It's just that, for me, Shinnecock Hills Golf Club is as close to a perfect design as I can imagine.

Tom Huckaby states in the post below yours, "I'd concur it (Shinnecock) is likely the best, truest test of golf in America. I just don't think that equals "best". This is an opinion that I respect absolutely. It goes to the age old question of the role of golfing ground in determining the greatness of a course vs. the course architecture and routing. The conflict exists right in Southampton. Crenshaw told me once that he considered The National to be the greatest golfing ground in the world. I agree with that and also find Shinnecock to be the greatest golf course in America. So there we have it, the conundrum of golf.

[Tim Leahy]

Jim and Matt, I have played all four but not recently.  I am sure you can argue the architecture merits of all four, but the history at Riviera and Olympic definitely add an element to the experience and prestige of the courses in my opinion.

[Brian Cenci]

Crystal Downs at #8 and Prairie Dunes at #9....love it!

[J_ Crisham]

East Lake seems to be rated a bit higher than it should. While I've found it to be a good course it does have some rather mundane holes. The stretch of 11-14 is not terribly memorable. Probably all Ross had to work with but it seems that some courses listed below it are better overall courses.

[Ed Oden]

I say it every time I see one of these rankings without it being included, but...WHERE is Mountain Ridge CC(Ross/NJ)?  There is just no way this course should be listed outside of the top 100 Classical Courses in the US.

I've always heard that Mountain Ridge won't allow raters on the course.  Anyone know if that is true?  Are there other courses that entirely refuse to accomodate raters? 

[Tom Huckaby]

I say it every time I see one of these rankings without it being included, but...WHERE is Mountain Ridge CC(Ross/NJ)?  There is just no way this course should be listed outside of the top 100 Classical Courses in the US.

I've always heard that Mountain Ridge won't allow raters on the course.  Anyone know if that is true?  Are there other courses that entirely refuse to accomodate raters? 

Hell of a question, one I'm sure Kavanaugh will jump on when he sees it.  From my perspective as a fairly inactive GD rating panelist, I'd say it's darn clear that MANY private clubs won't give us the time of day.  I can just imagine the response asking for access at Cypress Point or Augusta, for example.  But I gather that's not what you're asking - that you want to know if there are any clubs that actively PROHIBIT rating panelists from playing their courses?  I think there are some of those too, but I can't recall which.  Maybe Bear's Club in Florida?  Friar's Head, at least at one time?

I'd find that to be pretty cool, in a we don't give a shit about ratings kinda way.

TH

[John Kirk]

Nanea and Alotian must have restrictions on golf raters.  Those are modern courses, by the way.

[Ed Oden]

I say it every time I see one of these rankings without it being included, but...WHERE is Mountain Ridge CC(Ross/NJ)?  There is just no way this course should be listed outside of the top 100 Classical Courses in the US.

I've always heard that Mountain Ridge won't allow raters on the course.  Anyone know if that is true?  Are there other courses that entirely refuse to accomodate raters? 

Hell of a question, one I'm sure Kavanaugh will jump on when he sees it.  From my perspective as a fairly inactive GD rating panelist, I'd say it's darn clear that MANY private clubs won't give us the time of day.  I can just imagine the response asking for access at Cypress Point or Augusta, for example.  But I gather that's not what you're asking - that you want to know if there are any clubs that actively PROHIBIT rating panelists from playing their courses?  I think there are some of those too, but I can't recall which.  Maybe Bear's Club in Florida?  Friar's Head, at least at one time?

I'd find that to be pretty cool, in a we don't give a shit about ratings kinda way.

TH

Tom:

Yes, that is my question.  Its been awhile since I was in Jersey.  But my impression was that Mountain Ridge relishes excluding raters.  I thought that was part of the aura of the place.  Basically a "screw you" approach.  But I may be wrong.  Hopefully some of the current NJ guys can answer definitively.

Ed

[John Kavanaugh]

Most of my rater friends are already members of great courses.  They don't need this crap to get on where they want to play.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JSlonis,

Mountain Ridge is a very good Ross course.

One of the many things I like about it is that there have been very few amendments to it since Ross initially designed it.

The club has also embarked on a tree removal program and continues to make it enjoyable to play.  I believe the trend is toward F&F, although some low lying holes on the back nine present a problem.

Ed Oden,

I had never heard that Mountain Ridge excluded raters.
On the other hand, I couldn't say that they gave them carte blanche.

Brad Klein could tell you if they had the requisite number of raters to qualify for this year's list.

[Tom Huckaby]

Most of my rater friends are already members of great courses.  They don't need this crap to get on where they want to play.

Love it.  Predictable, though.

So Ed, I think there are such places, though again I have no idea re Mountain Ridge or any others for sure.  Hopefully someone does give a definitive answer.  And heck yeah, the screw you approach would most definitely add to the aura!

TH

[Ed Oden]

Ed Oden,

I had never heard that Mountain Ridge excluded raters.
On the other hand, I couldn't say that they gave them carte blanche.

Brad Klein could tell you if they had the requisite number of raters to qualify for this year's list.

Thanks Pat.  But, based on another thread, I suspect Brad Klein has better things to do right now than research the hit rate for Mountain Ridge!

Do the various publications actively attempt to ensure that the requisite number of raters see a course?

[rchesnut]

It's interesting to see Augusta at #10.  Not #10 in the world, or #10 overall, but #10 on the Classic Course list.   And it hasn't even drawn a mention in this thread.   For the vast majority of golfers, Augusta would probably be thought of as one of the 2 or 3 best courses in the country, and it seems to always get rated much higher.   I've never played it, so I can't really say whether its low ranking is deserved.  With all the Tiger tinkering, is the course heading downhill this badly?

[John Kirk]

The fact that Crystal Downs and Prairie Dunes #8 and #9 are ahead of Augusta, Pinehurst, and Winged Foot (West) is an interesting  trend.  Both Crystal and Prairie are small, hilly, and tricky.  They're very similar in many regards.

Hey Rob,

Just thought I'd toot my own horn and repeat this earlier statement.

[rchesnut]

   OK, it's been mentioned once.  Briefly.   

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