[Mark Bourgeois]

Tom Paul,

Yes but Mac did it with sand while mere mortals work in water!

[TEPaul]

"There are many who have worked this profession who were of high intelligence but I think things like this point to the possibility MacKenzie was a genuine genius(overused term that unfortunately devalues its power): in his use of bunkers this way he managed to find a way to use bunkers to recreate the visual challenge most of us associate only with water (a clean, bright line demarcating success and failure, with no buffer between), and yet by working in the medium of sand rather than water, managed to present the intimidation of "death" yet offer a reasonable possibility for recovery and "redemption.""

Mark:

That could be the case but somehow I doubt it.

There certainly is an easy way to find out though and that is to check any available bunker photos (probably mostly out of Australia) to see what those top lines and edges on his bunkers looked like when Mackenzie was alive.

If they have those really low profile lacy or jaggedy grass lines around the bunker edges as they did originally at CPC then he didn't use that sharp top line bunker edge. But if those bunkers in photos above always had those ultra sharp top lines, particularly when he was alive then he did do that on purpose and maybe for the reasons you cited.

Somehow I have a feeling those ultra sharp curvilinear top bunker lines in those photos above are the result of more modern day maintenance practices and not necessarily Mackenzie's style of design.

[paul cowley]

Mark...its been my experience that the maintenance problem isn't as much with the bunkers, but in mowing the greens that close to the edge.

Lower budgets that rely on Triplex mowing can't turn this tight, so the green keeps getting cut farther and farther away from the edge....which is something that happens commonly even on our courses. You really need a vigilante Super to maintain those green edges cut that close to a bunkers edge......walk mowing of course.

The clipped bunker edge also depends also on the type of soil....not all soil edges will hold up to that exposure.

[RJ_Daley]

Their sharp curvilinear top lines and how they starkly and dramatically twist and turn with and against the lines of other architectural elements as well as with other natural top lines of holes and sites is pretty stunning to see.

Tom, I often search for the words to describe their unique appearance (the Australian set of MacKenziesque bunker styles).  Your description is as good as I've seen...

But, I think the curvilinear lines are the result of Russell and Morcon's styling of MacKenzie's concept.  I tend to think that Mac was more responsible for the routing and use of the land's contouring to strategically and adroitly place the bunkers, while their look was Russell and Morcom's.

The reason I think that is looking at Tom Doak's book on AM, the drawings always show more hairy lip and some space between greenside bunkers and putting surface (not a lot of space mind you).  But, even in the old photos of AM playing at his courses in CA, one generally sees the maintenance and even placement of some of the most artistic AM bunkers as being not so much cut into the bowels of the greens as we see at the Australian courses.  I think that perhaps the early influences and stylings of AM at Alwoodey and Moortown and such have the similar stylings of the CA courses of Valley, Meadow, Haggin, Pasa, etc.  And, of couse ANGC.  But, most all of those do have hairy lips and some space between putting surface and bunker edge.

It seems that Don Placek from Doak's team has the best skill at drawing and depicting the curvilinear twists and bends of the bunkers that AM designed.
 
There are a couple of bunkers at Wild Horse that are mowed into the bowels of the green, fall-in style.  But they don't have the curvilinear lines that AM and Russel-Morcom's have.

I think one of the only courses that really has the same stylistic allure of the curvilinear lines that twist and bend with and against the scoops of bunker bowls and top lines is Riviera.  The difference in the top lines seems to be that Riviera maintains them rolled up and under like a boom of grass that suggests a green wave, and the Aussie style is to cut them with a straight razor.  Either way, Riv and Royal Melbourne are the two most compelling and alluring styles for my taste.  

But, if I hear TEP correctly, I think that AM might have been more on the same line of thinking stylistically that the tops should be a bit scruffy, mixed with wisps of grasses and some bare frostings of sand.  I don't think he actually envisioned the razor cuts of the edges.  Not that I dislike that look.  I do see some of AM's drawings with deep encroachment into the putting surface bowels (with apparent grassy buffer areas).  Some of these seem to mimic the jagged edges of how the sea at CPC cut into the land mass in jagged fashion.   I see those as different from his drawings of boomers.  

[Mark Bourgeois]

Paul, yeah that's a good point about soil.

Also, the sh*t cross bunker at Woodhall Spa is the 11th.  Looks like a verdant dump!

[Bill_McBride]

...next Tues Philly airport, have car, 1PM on site with the State. Push dirt Wed. Flask required. Stop.

Boy is that nostalgic?  Don't you miss telegrams?  "Stop" for the period, end of sentence.  Showing our age.....

My favorite all time telegram was Robert Bencheley's to the New Yorker as he arrived in Venice on assignment:  

STREETS FULL OF WATER STOP PLEASE ADVISE STOP

He didn't say anything about a flask but that was understood.

[TEPaul]

Bill:

I like Winston Churchill's telegram exchange with a wiseacre playwright best;

Wiseacre playwright;
"Sir Winston, have sent two tickets to opening night of my play for you and a friend if you have one STOP"

Sir Winston:
"Regret am previously engaged on opening night but would take two tickets on second night if there is one STOP"

[Mark Bourgeois]

Telegram sent from admirer of playright George Bernard Shaw:

"Miss Aston will be home Tuesday evening STOP"

Shaw's response: "Mr Bernard Shaw same STOP"

[TEPaul]

Telegram exchange between Sarah Bernhardt and George Bernhardt Shaw (who had actually never met):

Sarah  Bernhardt;
Mr Shaw, we should get together and have a baby. Can you imagine how extraordinary it would be my body and your mind? STOP

George Bernard Shaw;
Miss Bernhardt, what if it had my body and your mind? STOP

[Bill_McBride]

I like Winston Churchill's telegram exchange with a wiseacre playwright best;

Wiseacre playwright;
"Sir Winston, have sent two tickets to opening night of my play for you and a friend if you have one STOP"

Sir Winston:
"Regret am previously engaged on opening night but would take two tickets on second night if there is one STOP"

Don't get me started with Winston Churchill.    The Lady Astor stories alone are an hour or two.  

[TEPaul]

Bill:

You know Winston and Nancy Astor were actually friends despite their on and off political differences. But just the other day I found out what really ticked him off about here---he in no way believed a woman should ever be a member of Parliament and most certainly not her. I didn't realize that no matter how hard they tried they could just never get her to pay attention to and respect the etiquette of Parliament. She was always jumping up and speaking when she wasn't supposed to and when they tried to stop her she just needled the whole institution. Maybe she felt British Parliamentary etiquette didn't need to apply to an American woman and a Southerner at that.

[Craig Disher]

Trying to get back on point...  

These views of three holes at the Cascades are good examples. I think they were taken shortly after the course opened.

The diagonal line on the left of 4th green looks like it's almost a knife edge dividing bunker and green. I hadn't noticed this before but the shape of the green mimics the shapes on the mountain behind it. Great use of fractals which I think Wayne told me that Flynn used quite often.



The 13th:



And the 18th. I don't know what to make of the thin line of high grass between the green and bunkers. It could have been caused by lazy maintenance but the point remains - there's almost no distance between the bunker and the beginning of the putting surface.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Craig,

Don't worry about Tom Paul.  I'm going to have the club employ different-sized flagsticks whenever he gets down to Royal Melbourne.

I had thought about the fourth -- that's even more dramatic than it looks today I think.  Agree regarding the fractal point.

And the "14th" -- sure that isn't the 13th in fact? -- that just looks fantastic.

But these don't appear quite as dramatic or visually intimidating.  It could be the angle of the photographs, which if representative of the view for the golfer then these greens appear "presented" to the player; i.e, the view is one where the green appears in totality.

Secondly, it could be that the bunkers don't eat in as deeply, or at least do not appear to eat in as directly.

Whichever it is, in those RM pics there's room to put the flag in spots behind / between where the bays are carved into the green -- in some cases a function purely of the golfer's viewpoint rather than actual eating in, but the visual intimidation point stands.

Still, it's very much in the same camp. So what do you think the thinking was then that's different today?  Is Flynn on the record on any of this stuff?

Thanks for posting those pics!

Mark

[TEPaul]

The photo labeled the 14th is the 13th. That green and the bunkering did not turn out quite like that in restoration one reason being that old 13th green you see in that photo got absolutely destroyed once by a flood long ago. Flynn actually rerouted the entire creek on that hole apparently before that green got destroyed.

That style of a thin line of high grass bunker surround is the look that Flynn put on those Cascade bunkers. We've never seen anything like that on another Flynn course.

[Mark Bourgeois]

An astonishing amount of water flows annually through that valley.

I must confess, I did not feel Cascades Lower had eat-in visual intimidation when I played it.  For one thing, the collars were wider than in Craig's pics.

Regarding the collars, we talked about this last summer but not in the context of eat-in bunkers.  Do you think the intended functions of those collars was equivalent to today's "saving" bunkers? To wit: given the absence of sand wedges back then and, to stay on topic, the proximity of the bunkers to the greens, would these collars "save" shots from proceeding immediately from green to eat-in bunker?

What were Flynn's thoughts on bunker proximity to green?

Saving collars: care to take the bait?

Just to bring everyone up to speed:








Mark

[Mark Bourgeois]

Sean,

Heavy handed! Well, they are directional in the sense that if you get in one your score is heading in the up direction.  There's plenty of penalty for anyone trying to post a score, especially considering the speed of the greens: you have a tiny landing area in many cases, you simply would not believe how far the ball can roll.  To the already-chastened visitor, members nevertheless take glee in reading off a roll call of players whose chances in this or that tournament went to die in this or that bunker.

The point of the near vs. far miss is the near miss is penal enough to punish the golfer going for a score, and if he plays away from them, depending on the hole location, he may shoot himself out of a score as well.

More to the "directional" point, then, the beauty is the "directional imperative" depends on the location of the flag. The bunkers indeed may scream, "Don't hit it here!" But the flag tucked behind them screams in your other ear, "Do hit it here!"

So it's strategic.

As to what would happen if the bunkers weren't there, in many cases the challenge would be less.  This is not severe terrain; much of the great strategy out there derives from the bunkers and the penalty of going in.

Mark

[James Bennett]

Terrific thread Mark

Craig Disher (and others).  My understanding of the typical maintenance of Melbourne sandbelt and near sand-belt (best courses and better courses, but not all courses) is that greens are hand-mown during the week.  Some will use triplex on weekends, some might just roll the greens on weekends.

I am aware that at a course (Cranbourne) which still has most of its original greens from 50 years ago, some of which are large and some small, that these practices are used.  Their 17th hole is a 165 yard par 3 to a small green (perhaps 3500 sq feet) with minimal collar (perhaps 2 feet) and deep bunkers that have a tendancy to undercut the green.  So far they have managed to avoid this.  These collars are cut using a flymo.

One point that I have just realised is that because of the routing, it is unlikely any carts will be taken across these areas, and the foot traffic would be minimal.  So, it works.  Perhaps if there was a larger, higher collar, then more balls would stop near the edge, and more problems would occur in maintaing the adjacent bunker.

James B

[RJ_Daley]

I think that an Aussie once explained to me that the razor edges are not maintained as such throughout the entire year.  I think he said that they are allowed to grow thick and weave a strong rootzone until near tournament times and important playing dates.  Then they are cut sharp.  Otherwise if they are left sharp, they would crumble in after a season of wear.  

Also, the proximity of the eat-in encroachments into the putting surface serve to cause great trepidation for the golfer trying to not have the disaster and round spoiling hole.  With these sort of crisp cut edges, greens height mowed right up to the bunker edge, you cause the player to be very circumspect with his approach positioning and force them not to fly it to a pin or on the green due to firm and fast bounce-into one of these, not to mention the putt to a hole location just a few paces ahead of the fall-in bunker where an ounce of ethusiasm and aggressiveness to the hole with your putt, leaves you with a fall in and sand shot back to a short side with no room to land the sandblast and stop without going way past the hole and then have the same ticklish putt once again to the potential blow by and fall-in.  

Isn't that why Nicklaus (or was it Trevino) walked off the course in an Aussie open... out of disgust and thoughts that it was deviously tricked up and unfair?  ( Warning:I may have this story very convoluted)  

[TEPaul]

"Regarding the collars, we talked about this last summer but not in the context of eat-in bunkers.  Do you think the intended functions of those collars was equivalent to today's "saving" bunkers? To wit: given the absence of sand wedges back then and, to stay on topic, the proximity of the bunkers to the greens, would these collars "save" shots from proceeding immediately from green to eat-in bunker?"

MarkB:

Again, I do not think those grassy collars were intentionally that way solely to save balls from going into bunkers more easily.

Clearly that was the result in play but I feel that type of thing was simply the result of agronomics and maintenance practices over here.

Why are the bunkers in the Sand Belt so close cropped and so easily able to feed balls off greens into bunkers? Furthermore, are you sure that Mackenzie (or even Morcom et al) made them that way, intended that they be that way or ever actually saw them that way in their lifetimes? Again, old photos of those bunkers could easily answer this question).

We've been through that one on here before, Mark, and it seems it primarily has to do with different agronomics and agronomic cultures between the countries.

For one it has to do mostly with very different soil and natural cultures. The old adage that over here we've tried for years to get the grass to grow fast while over there they've tried to stop the grass from growing, goes a long, long way to explaining all of this, in my opinion.

[Peter Pallotta]

In time for the President's Cup at RM, and in honour of one of my most favourite thinkers/posters of all time, Mark Bourgeois ('where have you gone Joe DiMaggio...') a wonderful old thread -- one that must be read from the top.

Peter

[JMEvensky]

In time for the President's Cup at RM, and in honour of one of my most favourite thinkers/posters of all time, Mark Bourgeois ('where have you gone Joe DiMaggio...') a wonderful old thread -- one that must be read from the top.

Peter

Great and timely find.

Mackenzie bunkers,GBS quotes,and the late great TEP quoting Churchill--what's not to like?

[Kalen Braley]

First off,

Absolutely love these types of threads...this is what GCA.com is all about!

I've always wondered, if these are MacKenzie bunkers, then why are there few courses of his with these same "eat-in" bunkers. Is it purely because the sand in the Melbourne area can support this and nowhere else?  I'm no MacKenzie expert by a long shot, but I can't think of any other examples where he employed this type of bunkering.  Was this simply a one-off?  Do we have any pictures from 75 years ago to see what they looked like?

Thanks in advance.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Well, Peter, I guess this is where I show up to flog Mr. Coffee. Seriously, at this point I think I owe you about 350 pints, one for each compliment.

Kalen, I should try to offer something intelligent. Jeezus, 4 bluidy years to think...

Well. The capes aren't Mac but you betcher sweet tuchus those bays are.

Maybe there's some maintenance credit in there but the aerials will show those greenside bunkers didn't magically appear for the 1959 Canada Cup. Also, if Mac did it everywhere he'd get slammed for cranking out templates but if we just see it in a spot or two we question the provenance. Fair?

So here's the thought: what if one unremarked magic secret for proximity of Mac's bunkers to the greens lies in the application of his trench-construction principles, specifically bunker-face concavity?

Hint: concavity = bunker face steepness.

[archie_struthers]

 

So nice to have a couple Flynn experts in attendance....I think the bunkering at Indian Creek mirrors the style employed by MacKenzie or at least is similar in genre.

As to Churchill my favorite remains when he was accosted by a snooty socialite..

Mr Prime Minister you're drunk .....to which he quipped... yes ma'am but you are ugly , and in the morning I'll  be sober.  !

[Bill Brightly]

I wish an architect or superintendent would comment, but I think the turf at RM (and perhaps the whole sandbelt area?) is unique and can support a player's weight and not collapse if people stand near the edge. I see players walking up the face (CRINGE) during the Presidents Cup, and obviously there is no damage. I just dont think this would work on parkland courses in the States.

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