What is "Raynor's Prized Dogleg"?

[Brian_Gracely]

I've heard it referenced a few times, but what exactly was it?  Do examples still exist today, or was this just a drawing concept?

[Tom_Doak]

I'm sure that George Bahto will eventually come up with the diagram here, but in the meantime:

The "prize dogleg" was in fact one of the runners-up in the Country Life competition of 1914, to design the finishing hole for Lido.  Actually, Macdonald and Raynor adapted two of the runners-up for holes on their Lido course, and Raynor used the "dogleg" design on a couple of other holes in his career.  [To clarify:  it was not actually Raynor's design; one of the holes they used was submitted by Tom Simpson, but the "prize dogleg" was from an amateur.]

I can't recall, though, if any still exist.  The only other one which I remember being clearly labeled as such was one of the holes on the nine-hole Ocean Links he built for T. Suffern Tailer in Newport, RI, which is also NLE.

[Tony_Chapman]

Brian -

You have probably already seen this, but just in case:

15th hole, 455 yards; As explained in George Bahto's Feature Interview on this site, Raynor's Prize Dog-Leg is often the hardest two shotter on a Raynor course and this is certainly the case at Yeamans Hall. Raynor's perfect use of the terrain meant that no bunkers were required off the tee. A friend of no man, the length of this hole generally means that most pars are the result of a one putt. However, the severe hog's back green does little to aid the golfer in his pursuit of said up and down.  

[George_Bahto]

Brian: later this evening

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Good to see you on George. I will look forward to it in the morning.

[George_Bahto]

Brian, as promised ....... John the Tiger, thanks:

OK, so you can't teach "old dogs" etc .....   well, with the help of a certain left-handed golfer who has been a thorn in the side of the Yale admin (with a bit if my help I must  honestly admit) I've learned to post a photo on to this nutty treehouse.

OK, to the Dog-Leg:

..... as Tom Doak correctly explained the Raynor's Prize Dog Leg hole (let's call it "RPDL" for now) was a combination of two secondary submissions to the Lido contest (Tom Simpson's rendition was one but he was ineligible because he was a professional - CB’s caveat). (There was another one or two of the holes on Lido that were also renditions, or modifications of winning entries.)

but for now just the RPDL:

So this hole didn't show up at NGLA, Piping Rock, Sleepy and as host of others, first used at the Lido project.

From then on SR included this hole in many, many of his courses with very many variations. It certainly had to be one of his favorites.

Unfortunately, this was one of the first of the holes modified by a club it would seem.  

Why you ask? (did you? .... )

A very tough hole, usually the longest of his par-4s with the main problem, the compounding/confounding bunkering short of the green .... generally consisting of a set of 3 diagonal cross bunkers across the entire fairway some 50-60 yards from the green - this after a perfect, long drive.

It’s the same basic strategy, in some sense, as the Long Hole at St A where Hell’s bunker creates a similar problem.

I like the Raynor quote: “a par-4 but a bogey-6" ..........

Here is a drawing of the Lido hole .........  More info after any questions if you have them .... there is a lot to this “story.”

The 6th at Lido:

[Doug Siebert]

Anyone got any pics of actual versions still in existance in Raynor's original form today?  Looks like quite an interesting hole.

[TEPaul]

GeorgeB:

It's interesting how Macdonald/Raynor used that basic "prize dogleg" as either a par 4 or par 5. To me it looks more interesting as a long par 4 where the golfer has the choice of driving the ball blind over the app 20 ft elevation at the inside corner of the dogleg. On the par 5 version no such heroic blind drive option over the inside of the dogleg seems to exist. It would also seem that the second shot options on the par 4 version are more interesting in the whole than on the par 5 version. The par 5 version certainly does appear to have an interesting heroic second shot option over the long cross hazard but for a golfer not using that heroic second shot option it appears the remaining second shot choices on the par 5 version aren't very good. It seems a bit like PVGC's #7 in that a golfer who decides not to try to carry HHA in two can only select a sort of chip shot down to the end of the fairway in front of HHA.

[Michael_Stachowicz]

We have a RPDL here at Dedham Country and Polo Club, identified by Mr. Bahto himself.  However, it has been comprimised, as many have, because people don't understand the strategy involved.  In our case the two shot route was planted with trees to "strengthen and lengthen" our sixth hole.  This planting also prevents golfers from taking a "short cut".  So what if the "short cut" (the second shot) is a blind three wood shot over a bunker complex?

The good news is that through education and the enthusiasm generated we may be able to restore this, but we will have to be preapared for the  argument that we made the course easier.

[George_Bahto]

Tom: there were no par-5 version of the Raynor Pr D-Leg - they were all 4's, not meant to be 5's .... and imagine these were hole built in the teen and 1920's.

Many were built as slight doglegs and some even as straight holes tee to green (as were any number of Road holes built, sans dog-leg ...... the original Road hole at Piping Rock was about 386-yds and straight hole tee to green)

The Road hole often were just identified by the green complex not including the drive - the Cape hole were also about the green complex situation NOT the drive.

The very best Ray Pr DL was the 6th at Lido (the original). Probably next was the 9th at Ocean Links where th green was "fish-hooked" at the end of the fairway and was hardly reachable in two shots. I've had the please and honor of speaking with the son of the original pro at Ocean Links (now a member of Newport CC) who grew up on the course as a teenager and remember all the details of the course.

I think this “hole” was probably the first hole of a Raynor projected golf course that was rejected by a club because of its difficulty and as I stated above (someplace) was probably the first one changed by a club. Crossbunkering on a bias is a wonderful feature when positioned properly in the line of play and placed strategically rather than in a penal manner.

[TEPaul]

George:

In your book you have the RPDL at Lido (#6) listed as a par 5. The hole is listed on your Lido course plan as a 493 yard hole, the second longest hole on the course in fact. If Macdonald/Raynor actually intended holes of that length to be super long par 4s then I suggest this historical fact is all the justification NGLA would ever need to simply leave holes #5, #7 and #18 just as they are today (in other words to not even think about increased tee length) and simply call them par 4s on the card and the course a par 70!!! instead of a par 73. As was mentioned when we spoke on the phone the other day this would put today's perception of NGLA in another dimension as a challenging golf course which as I mentioned would cost the club virtually nothing other than to print new cards! If you can get them to agree to that, as I said, I'll be more than happy to pay for their new scorecards!!  

[BCrosby]

"Crossbunkering on a bias is a wonderful feature when positioned properly in the line of play and placed strategically rather than in a penal manner."

Well said George.

Why the feature is not used more often by modern architects is a mystery to me.

Bob

[TEPaul]

Bob:

One of the really interesting facets of The Lido's design is that practically every hole on the course that doesn't turn in some way (like a fairway at a diagonal) has a bunch of hazard features INSIDE the fairway lines.

[George_Bahto]

Tom - I stand corrected about the 6th-Lido being a 5 (you've got too much time on your hands - hah) - that may be the only one - I'll check it out

gb

[TEPaul]

"Tom - I stand corrected about the 6th-Lido being a 5 (you've got too much time on your hands - hah) - that may be the only one - I'll check it out
gb"

George:

I don't want you to stand corrected, I want you to tell the world that those holes were super long par 4s so NGLA will be more inclined to call holes #5, #7 or perhaps even #18 long par 4s for the top flite player. In this way the club will finally be rid of these architectural yahoos like Pat Mucci who want to move Macdonald's gates and God knows what else just to make the course longer!

[T_MacWood]

This is the hole RPDL is based upon...perhaps they should rename the hole Edmondson's Prized Dogleg.


Tom Simpson's non-entry for the Lido contest. He was ineligable bacause his partner Herbert Fowler was a judge.

[George_Bahto]

Tom Mac: that last hole is called "Strategy" - was the 15th at Lido ..... was also built at Westhampton, but at WH someplace along the way they killed the entire left side of the optional fairway and totally wrecked the hole ...... still a neat hole with one of the course's greatest greens (WH)

[BCrosby]

Tom MacW -

For which East Lothian course did Edmondson do the drawing? Or was it only conceptual?

TEP -

I don't know much about the Lido. I'll go home tonight and reread my Wexler.

Lido sounds like such an extraordinary course, why doesn't someone replicate it? Instead of these "greatest hits" courses where they do a little Colt, a little Ross, a little RTJ, etc., why not build a new Lido soup-to-nuts? Heck, you could even call it "The Lido". Copyrights have expired. Fernandina Island or some other barrier island would be perfect. I'm not being facetious.

Bob  

[T_MacWood]

Bob
Mr.Edmondson finished second to MacKenzie in the Country Life design contest that Macdonald sponsored...the drawing is his entry.

The East Lothian mention is a different article.

[TEPaul]

Bob:

Actually the word on the street is that recently someone actually has or is entertaining the idea of recreating The Lido.

Reading MacDonald's own werds on The Lido is most interesting. It makes the fact clearer that Macdonald (at the time he was persuaded to build The Lido by Winthrop) was persuaded to do the course simply because it was understood at that time that there were many holes and ideas Macdonald had stored in his mental inventory and was dying to do but he simply hadn't found the appropriate landforms and positions and such on other courses to do them all.

Winthrop convinced MacDonald that he would give him all the money as well as a blank canvas site to do anything and everything he ever wanted to do. Macdonald was therefore able to totally create every single feature of a hole or holes elsewhere or any single feature he wanted to do. Macdonald said in his book this made him really feel the "creator" and that he was able to do every single thing everywhere and anywhere on The Lido until near the end when unfortunately they sort of ran out of fill!  

[BCrosby]

Tom -

You find a group to rebuild The Lido and I'll get you all the fill you want.

Bob

[TEPaul]

Oh George!

Do you see what Bob Crosby said? If we can get a group together to recreate The Lido's holes exactly and completely we definitely will need Macdonald's Lido plans. He said in his book;

"Seth Raynor was invaluable in this work, seeing that the hills, the hummocks, and the undulations would fit in as well as possible with the plans."

Macdonald also said;

"Finally I consented to have the plans drawn up...."

Where are those Macdonald Lido construction plans George?? If you have them and you're hiding them from me, you gonna be sorry! I'll give you one week to produce those plans and if they aren't in my hands this time next Thursday you're gonna come home and it'll look like the FBI/CIA and KGB spent the day turning your place upside down!!

[Greg Holland]

I have read somewhere that Mike Keiser intends to rebuild Lido as one of his next projects.  I can't remember if it was the 4th at Bandon, or if he had somewhere else in mind.  

From Wexler's book, The Lido certainly looks awesome; and of course, Bernard Darwin thought very highly of it.  

[Bill_McBride]

Not a lot of discussion on this board about Robert Trent Jones and strategic bunkering (such as the cross bunkering on the diagonal as mentioned above), but two very good examples are #2 and #3, very strong par 4's at Robert Trent Jones International outside Fairfax Va, and site of the first two Presidents Cups.  Both holes feature diagonal cross bunkering which must be carried to reach long par 4 greens.  The course sort of goes downhill after that, although there are a lot of good holes.

[SPDB]

Bill - Not a lot of RTJ strategic bunkering to discuss, and certainly very little cross bunkering at all. (RTJ GC was primarily Rulewich.)

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