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Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Styles and Van Kleek's best courses?
« on: September 20, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Bruce Hepner mentions Styles and Van Kleek's Proud Neck course elsewhere in this Discussion Group. Brad Klein is down as being a definite fan of their work, too.I have only played Taconic. Is that generally considered their best work? Where else should I head to (other than Prouds Neck)?

TEPaul

Styles and Van Kleek's best courses?
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 1999, 08:00:00 PM »
Ran:      Can't answer your question about Stiles good work but I thought I might add that he did work to my course Gulph Mills in 1940-1. As far as I can tell it was the only work he did in Penna. and his contribution was to add a few tees and mounds but unfortunately also to remove some of Ross's bunkers including all the short cross bunkering (we call them top-shot bunkers). With an excellent new master plan by Gil Hanse we may restore some of them. What interested me most about Stiles' contribution to Gulph Mills is he left us with what must be considered a real comprehensive master plan for that era and it gives me some understanding of the thinking of an architect of that time. Most of his recommendations were not done and I find his explanations and recommendations to be  less than inspiring. In his defense he may have been reacting to some real knee-jerk opinions of members to original features etc. It is curious how we might have come to hire him in the first place but the most likely explanation would seem to be that many of our members spent their summers in Maine, particularly Prout's Neck!

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Styles and Van Kleek's best courses?
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2005, 03:35:13 PM »
I was slumming around in the back of the GCA.com archives and I came across this thread about Stiles and Van Kleek from 1999 (back when there were only a handful of posters and TE Paul was a mere "Mortal" with only a couple thousand posts rather than the "God" he is today... :o ;D) . I don't know that much about Stiles and Van Kleek but I sure liked Taconic. Any thoughts?
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Mike_Cirba

Re:Styles and Van Kleek's best courses?
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2005, 03:38:36 PM »
I've heard great things about Rutland in Vermont, sort of a mini-Taconic.

Van Kleek is responsible for virtually every NYC muni, all of which he revamped or created during the Depression.  

They built a course in NJ on a barrier island called Brigantine CC that I have fond memories of many vacation rounds on as a kid.  

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Styles and Van Kleek's best courses?
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2005, 03:41:19 PM »
Other than Taconic, the only other course that comes to mind is LaTourette GC in Staten Island, NY (Van Kleek only).  There are some wonderful greens on the course and the design is probably the best of the NYC municipal courses.  With a lot of money and TLC the course could be a gem.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Styles and Van Kleek's best courses?
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2005, 04:25:58 PM »
I recently played a Stiles course in Lakeland?, Florida named Lekarica. A bit rough around the edges and it will probably never be considered great but it was fun, had lots of good challenges, including at the greens, offered some excellent terrain, all this for 30 bucks.  
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Styles and Van Kleek's best courses?
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2005, 04:38:00 PM »
Jim K

That's good to know. I have driven through the Lekarica complex a few times and left uninspired. It always looked really poorly kept, and I couldn't see much of interest from the street view.

It was recently on the auction block, forced or not-I don't know. Did it change hands? Are there any promises for its future?
Raynor was a hack

Scott Coan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Styles and Van Kleek's best courses?
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2005, 04:50:11 PM »
An excellent course from these guys is Thorny Lea in Brockton, Mass.  Interesting to note that some of the very best amateur golfers in Massachusetts have been produced out of this club.  Makes me wonder, does good GCA breed good golfers?

It's layout and history can be viewed at:
http://www.thornyleagc.com/club/scripts/golf/view_course.asp?GRP=7&NS=PUBLIC&APP=32
http://www.thornyleagc.com/club/scripts/public/public.asp?grp=7&NS=PUBLIC

michael j fay

Re:Styles and Van Kleek's best courses?
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2005, 04:53:28 PM »
The front side of the Waconah Country Club is a 1930 effort aand very well done. The back designed by Stiles and Van Kleek but built in the 50's ia not comparable.
Rutland is a very good course and although I played it 25 years ago I think there is some access.

Concord CC in New Hampshire has some wonderful holes but is limited severly by lack of land and suffering from seven generations of tree planting.
 
I saw a number of the holes at Prout's Neck and was impressed with what I saw. They too could use some pruning but the course is pretty pure.

Taconic is in a very elite class of courses in New England. There are a couple of weaknesses (opening and a closing reachable par-fives) but the course overall is one of New Englands premier designs. The flow of the course is about as good as it gets. Holes like the short # 3 are postcards, yet every hole has teeth.

I rank Taconic # 3 in New England after Salem and Wannamoisett on my own chart. If there is comparable Stiles and Van Kleek to be seen, I am open for a foray.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Styles and Van Kleek's best courses?
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2005, 05:05:46 PM »
Sarge,
I had the same thoughts as you when I drove in. You were seeing the second (par 4) and third (par 3), holes from the road. Having the third tee right on the driving range, with its green flanked by the clubhouse and parking lot, doesn't make it look too inviting, but the course really grew on me. It does start slow but builds as it goes along. I'd drive 50 miles to play it, especially if I wanted some piece and quiet on the course.  
I'm from CT. and was spending a couple months vacation in Orlando and Sarasota so I no nothing about the situation there, sorry.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Styles and Van Kleek's best courses?
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2005, 05:28:55 PM »
Jim

I wondered if the par 3 was a practice hole, I never could figure the layout.

I've been meaning to stop off to play there, so now I'm a little more motivated. Thanks.
Raynor was a hack

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Styles and Van Kleek's best courses?
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2005, 05:30:37 PM »
By the way, Isn't that a hell of a house right where you turn in off the main road. I would love to see the inside.
Raynor was a hack

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Styles and Van Kleek's best courses?
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2005, 08:12:43 PM »
I saw this article on Wildwood CC (New Jersey) the other day. Not sure if it is their best, but I remember it being a fun nice course with a look similar to Atlantic City CC being in the marsh area "off-shore"

http://www.philgolfmag.com/PGM/pgm/2005/April_05/page22.html

Has anyone been there recently?

Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Styles and Van Kleek's best courses?
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2005, 09:33:32 PM »
Last year I played a little mountain (big hills in Western MA) course called Bass Ridge which was at most 5000 yards, on a tiny acreage and tons of fun. I had to know who was responisible.  At least 9 were credited to Stiles, later in the year I played Wahcona for the first time. As a New Englander (honorary) I am making it my GCA duty this year to investigate as many Stiles courses as I can manage, and I will even take photos and post them. GCA company welcome, of course if anyone else curious - email me if so..

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Styles and Van Kleek's best courses?
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2005, 09:37:04 AM »
The course is called Prouts Neck, no apostrophe.

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Nate Mady

Re:Styles and Van Kleek's best courses?
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2005, 10:37:20 AM »
Rutland in Vermont is a fabulous course, very well maintained. Barre Country Club is also a Styles, but I believe it's just 9 of 18.. the routing is quite nice.  Rutland is worthy of a Road Trip!!

Rees Milikin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Styles and Van Kleek's best courses?
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2014, 08:42:45 PM »
Jim K

That's good to know. I have driven through the Lekarica complex a few times and left uninspired. It always looked really poorly kept, and I couldn't see much of interest from the street view.

It was recently on the auction block, forced or not-I don't know. Did it change hands? Are there any promises for its future?

Bumped this b/c Lekarica is for sale again and not too sure if it will remain a golf course (gonna try and hit it up before it possibly disappears forever): http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1503-Highland-Park-Dr-Lake-Wales-FL-33898/2106712363_zpid/

Greg Holland

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Styles and Van Kleek's best courses?
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2014, 09:29:47 PM »
Starmount Forest CC in Greensboro NC is a very fun Stiles & Van Kleek course.  Lester George renovated several years ago -- he can chime in because I am not sure if he intended to restore or renovate (but I don't think he changed the routing). 

Mike Sweeney

Re:Styles and Van Kleek's best courses?
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2014, 09:40:49 PM »


Bumped this b/c Lekarica is for sale again and not too sure if it will remain a golf course (gonna try and hit it up before it possibly disappears forever): http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1503-Highland-Park-Dr-Lake-Wales-FL-33898/2106712363_zpid/

I don't know how this could be saved. Ignoring the golf course, you have 1920's Florida mansions that sit next to 1980's Florida bungalows, due to bankruptcies and bad zoning over the years.

I will argue that JK is right on this one, and a correction of reducing courses by 10-20% in the USA is good for the game!

Rees Milikin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Styles and Van Kleek's best courses?
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2014, 09:43:00 PM »
Starmount Forest CC in Greensboro NC is a very fun Stiles & Van Kleek course.  Lester George renovated several years ago -- he can chime in because I am not sure if he intended to restore or renovate (but I don't think he changed the routing). 

I would be curious to know what work was done at Starmount.  Also, the Old Fort & Lake Lure 9 hole courses look interesting for some off the beaten path fun.

Charlie Gallagher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Styles and Van Kleek's best courses?
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2014, 12:32:07 PM »
    Wayne Stiles did a lot of work in the New England area. Someone before posted that he did Concord Country Club in Concord NH. I believe that is incorrect; Ralph Barton is credited with the original nine there, which Geoff Cornish added to in the late 60's or early 70's.  The Barton holes were mixed into the Cornish holes to form the routing in play today.
    I will 2nd the opinions about the quality of Stile's work at Rutland CC. The place needs a serious tree trim, a not uncommon problem with northeast courses, but it sports some outstanding holes. If memory serves, the 14th was originally blessed with an infinity green which unfortunately is now backdropped with trees, but it's apparent nature is still on display. Many other worthy holes including 17 and 18 where treacherous greens prominently effect the scores of the unwary.
     Stiles incorporated false fronts into many of his greens. Pine Brook in Weston MA has a number of outstanding Stiles greens that remain original to my knowledge and incorporate this feature. His work is sometimes confused with Ross's as there are stylistic similarities in green and bunker styles.
    For those who don't know, Kevin Mendik is probably the most knowledgable Stiles expert on the planet. He and Bob Labance wrote an excellent book on Stiles,"The Life and Work of Wayne Stiles". Bob is, regretfully, no longer with us. As Kevin points out, Wayne was not much of a record keeper and some of his only written words can be found in his master plan recomendations for Gulph Mills which Mr. Paul referenced previously.

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Styles and Van Kleek's best courses?
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2014, 12:56:32 PM »
One of my father's (and his father's) courses was Woods Hole on the Cape and S & VK were involved there.  It was the second 18-hole course I ever played (Winchester CC was the first) and the first place I ever met a first class hooker (courtesy of my Uncle Ben, although he never left her from his side, alas....).
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Styles and Van Kleek's best courses?
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2014, 08:57:13 PM »
An excellent course from these guys is Thorny Lea in Brockton, Mass.  Interesting to note that some of the very best amateur golfers in Massachusetts have been produced out of this club.  Makes me wonder, does good GCA breed good golfers?

It's layout and history can be viewed at:
http://www.thornyleagc.com/club/scripts/golf/view_course.asp?GRP=7&NS=PUBLIC&APP=32
http://www.thornyleagc.com/club/scripts/public/public.asp?grp=7&NS=PUBLIC

Agreed, Thorny Lea has some really awesome holes.  It's certainly a treat that flies under the Boston radar when the belt notchers are in town.

MM
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Rees Milikin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Styles and Van Kleek's best courses?
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2014, 09:56:03 PM »
I swung by Lekarica today and happened to run into the owner.  He is looking to sell and whoever ends up buying it is going to get is for basically nothing (I was shocked at the price that he is willing to unload the course).  I don't have high hopes that it will remain a golf course, but who knows, maybe someone that loves old golf courses will buy it and turn it around.

Bruce Wellmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Styles and Van Kleek's best courses?
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2014, 02:28:32 PM »
Starmount Forest CC in Greensboro NC is a very fun Stiles & Van Kleek course.  Lester George renovated several years ago -- he can chime in because I am not sure if he intended to restore or renovate (but I don't think he changed the routing). 

I have a meeting in GBO in January. Memo to self. Go play SF.

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