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Eric LeFante

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Re: Why is the USGA opposed to a rollback of the ball ?
« Reply #275 on: November 26, 2017, 10:25:32 PM »
I've never come across the one 'stat' I'd be most interested in, i.e. what the actual driver swing speeds were for some of the great and long hitting golfers of the past. 
I assume they can do that now with modern camera/computer technology, i.e. take old tv or film footage of Snead or Nicklaus or Norman and factor in frames-per-second rates etc and figure out how fast they were able to get those club-heads and 43 inch steel shafts moving when they really let loose.   
Until then, here's parts of an interview with Greg Norman. I know we'll all take it for 'what it's worth'; but I'd be curious to know especially what the good players and teaching pros around here think of it:

With today's equipment, I [Old Greg] can get it out there 315, 320 yards. I carry it 295, compared to 280 back then. I used a persimmon driver and used to drive it 300 yards with an old Tour Edition golf ball that used to spin too much.

Twenty-four-year-old Greg Norman playing today's clubs would hit it 340, 350 yards, easy. I'd say Young Greg averages 350 off the tee. Back in 1977, my club-head speed was 132. Today, that means I'd carry it 340.

Just compare our club-head speeds and do the math. Mine was 132 mph. He's [ie Tiger] probably 130, 131. If I didn't hit it at least 320, 330 on average, I'd be upset.

Do you think that's true? Could GN (or a Jack Nicklaus) actually generate that kind of club-head speed with the old drivers & shafts?

When he let loose with the old equipment (and 132 mph club head speed), Greg remembers carrying it 280 yards. He says that this same club head speed today would have the ball carrying 340 yards -- 60 yards more.

Can this be true? Have club and balls *alone* -- independent, at least for the top guys, of any better athleticism and strength -- added that much distance for the longest hitters?




I think it's true. With the same equipment, I don't believe DJ and Rory would hit it further than Norman or Nicklaus in their primes.


I wish the pros today played with the equipment from the 1980s (persimmon, heavy steel shafts, balls). I think fitness and technique have increased the swing speed of the average tour player, but the best 30 years ago were as good as the best today. The ball is not the only culprit, but I don't think the USGA would dream of bringing back the old clubs in addition to reduced distance balls.


« Last Edit: November 26, 2017, 10:30:29 PM by Eric LeFante »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Why is the USGA opposed to a rollback of the ball ?
« Reply #276 on: November 26, 2017, 10:40:17 PM »
I was reading the GD Hot List, and one of the big brands now has a 6 iron with 26 degrees of loft. I thought: wasn't that almost called a 4 iron not too long ago?

You have to admire their evil genius and long term plan, ie when they can get the 6 iron down to a 3 iron loft, average golfers will be able to hit it for miles - but will hit it well only once every ten times (because it's actually a 3 iron!)

And at that very moment, they'll introduce widely (and the magazines will start telling us we *all* need) the new 4 hybrid, 5 hybrid, and 6 hybrid...at $240 a piece!

One of the rarely mentioned advantages of playing vintage irons: I get very pleased with myself when I hit a crisp 5 iron off the fairway to a small green -- conveniently forgetting that actually I just hit a 7!

Peter

PS - Eric, I think few will agree with us, and I know it's hard to substantiate Greg Norman's claims about his club head speed back then...but what you say sure 'feels' true
« Last Edit: November 26, 2017, 11:16:48 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Eric LeFante

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Re: Why is the USGA opposed to a rollback of the ball ?
« Reply #277 on: November 26, 2017, 10:46:07 PM »

I was reading the GD Hot List, and one of the big brands now has a 6 iron with 26 degrees of loft. I thought: wasn't that almost called a 4 iron not too long ago?

You almost have to admire their evil genius and long term plan, ie when they can get the 6 iron down to a 3 iron loft, average golfers will be able to hit it for miles - but only once every ten times (because it's actually a 3 iron!)

And at about that very moment, they'll introduce (and the magazines will start telling us we *need*) the new 4 hyrbid, 5 hybrid, and 6 hybrid...at $240 a piece!

One of the rarely mentioned advantages of playing vintage irons: I get very pleased with myself when I hit a crisp 5 iron off the fairway to a small green -- conveniently forgetting that actually I just hit a 7!


Great point Peter. 26 degrees used to be a 4 iron.




Garland Bayley

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Re: Why is the USGA opposed to a rollback of the ball ?
« Reply #278 on: November 27, 2017, 02:48:37 AM »
If spin is not an important factor to regulate, then it must have not played a roll when Tiger won at Pebble by 15 in 2000.

Tiger had the solid low spin balls that his competitors did not have. Can you really justify that the spin characteristic did not play a roll in him being the only player to ever win a major with a score more than 4 standard deviations below the mean?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike_Young

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Re: Why is the USGA opposed to a rollback of the ball ?
« Reply #279 on: November 27, 2017, 07:28:55 AM »
One can putt with any of these balls....TW wins were with his putter...while he may have hit it further and it may have sounded different, if he weren't making the putts he would have just been another longball dude...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

JESII

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Re: Why is the USGA opposed to a rollback of the ball ?
« Reply #280 on: November 27, 2017, 10:19:01 AM »
Garland,


The understanding of how to maximize distance off the tee is light years ahead of where it was in the 90’s.


It’s not that spin isn’t a consideration, its extremely important. It’s just that the guys everyone is so worried about have the ability and every incentive to figure out how to beat any realistic change to it.

Eric LeFante

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Re: Why is the USGA opposed to a rollback of the ball ?
« Reply #281 on: November 27, 2017, 11:20:59 AM »

Gary Woodland must have been following this thread and decided to try his current driver vs a persimmon on Trackman:

His current driver flew 48 yards further, swing speed was 13 MPH faster, and ball speed was 22 MPH faster. He flew it 268 with the persimmon (but modern golf ball).

Looks like Greg Norman's quote that Peter posted is pretty accurate.....

The difference in swing speed between drivers can only be explained by 45 inch driver vs 43 inches and a graphite shaft that is half the weight of the steel one.

I wish all the equipment could be rolled back for top players to the 1980s.


https://twitter.com/MichaelClayto15/status/934010502212042752?utm_source=Subscribers&utm_campaign=959a2bf1e7-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_11_27&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_28a08c87c2-959a2bf1e7-149922681
« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 11:34:36 AM by Eric LeFante »

MCirba

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Re: Why is the USGA opposed to a rollback of the ball ?
« Reply #282 on: November 27, 2017, 11:25:24 AM »

Gary Woodland must have been following this thread and decided to try his current driver vs a persimmon on Trackman:


His current driver flew 48 yards further, swing speed was 13 MPH faster, and ball speed was 22 MPH faster. He flew it 268 with the persimmon.


Looks like Greg Norman's quote that Peter posted is pretty accurate.....


I wish all the equipment could be rolled back for top players to the 1980s.




https://twitter.com/MichaelClayto15/status/934010502212042752?utm_source=Subscribers&utm_campaign=959a2bf1e7-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_11_27&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_28a08c87c2-959a2bf1e7-149922681

I recall here about ten years or so back a number of folks were contending that technology had reach its zenith related to balls and implements and that under the USGA/R&A guidelines nothing more could be accomplished by the manufacturers to increase distance.

With the benefit of hindsight, I think it's pretty clear that view was mistaken.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

JESII

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Re: Why is the USGA opposed to a rollback of the ball ?
« Reply #283 on: November 27, 2017, 11:35:02 AM »
Not sure Mike...I think a great deal of the improvements between say 2005 and today are the result of optimization and evolution.


Evolution to mean that in 2005, #’s 9, 10 and 11 we’re Kenny Perry, Sergio Garcia and Brandt Jobe.  In 2017 they were Trey Mullinax, Tony Finau and Kevin Tway.


People tease about core exercise but the reality is, younger stronger guys make up the Tour now. They will naturally hit it further.


Regarding optimization; guys are constantly looking for better and better launch conditions.


I think a fair comparison of balls and Club faces from those two years would show very little difference.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Why is the USGA opposed to a rollback of the ball ?
« Reply #284 on: November 27, 2017, 12:18:18 PM »

Gary Woodland must have been following this thread and decided to try his current driver vs a persimmon on Trackman:

His current driver flew 48 yards further, swing speed was 13 MPH faster, and ball speed was 22 MPH faster. He flew it 268 with the persimmon (but modern golf ball).
...

Here is where I expected Jim to jump in and say the persimmon driver was not optimized for the ball being used. In fact no one makes a ball that would be optimized with the persimmon driver.

Looking at a swing speed chart it seems he should have gotten about 30 carry distance yards for the increased speed. So the other 18 yards could come from ball optimization for the persimmon driver.

I don't know how accurate trackman readings are, as I have little to no knowledge of them other than my understanding is that they use mathematical models to compute their results. So here you are dependent on the accuracy of the mathematical model, which I assume would be accurate through middle ranges, but maybe not so accurate at the ends of the ranges.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

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Re: Why is the USGA opposed to a rollback of the ball ?
« Reply #285 on: November 27, 2017, 12:20:54 PM »

I recall here about ten years or so back a number of folks were contending that technology had reach its zenith related to balls and implements and that under the USGA/R&A guidelines nothing more could be accomplished by the manufacturers to increase distance.

With the benefit of hindsight, I think it's pretty clear that view was mistaken.

My recollection is that was the USGA/R&A position. People here were arguing they were probably shortsighted in that position.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Peter Pallotta

Re: Why is the USGA opposed to a rollback of the ball ?
« Reply #286 on: November 27, 2017, 12:30:23 PM »
Yes, JES, I suppose much of this for me is just pining for (what seems in retrospect) a more interesting game.
We still get marvellous parallels to the Watson-Nicklaus Duel in the Sun; the Mickelson-Stenson showdown was just as riveting and good.
But what we don’t seem to get anymore are the Trevino-Nicklaus match-ups, one of the shortest drivers on tour challenging one of the longest — one all hard-scrabbled hustle and the short game moxie of a thief; the other the supreme self confidence of a loving upbringing, the finest coaching, and two US Amateurs.
Those were, or seem to have been, some of golf’s better days.
Heck, I’d settle for just another Norman-Pavin showdown: proof that, inherent to the game of golf is the chance that a proverbial 98 lb weakling with an awkward swing can better the Golden Boy with a swing gifted to him by the gods.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 12:37:28 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Garland Bayley

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Re: Why is the USGA opposed to a rollback of the ball ?
« Reply #287 on: November 27, 2017, 12:35:01 PM »
...
I think a fair comparison of balls and Club faces from those two years would show very little difference.

But driver shaft weight would be significantly different, no?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

JESII

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Re: Why is the USGA opposed to a rollback of the ball ?
« Reply #288 on: November 27, 2017, 12:45:21 PM »
I don’t think the weight is really any different. I bought a Callaway GBB in about 1995 with a 70g shaft. Nobody on Tour today is using less than 65g and most are using more than 70g I believe.


What’s different is that a 70g X-flex shaft from Graphite Design can be customized to fit Phil Mickelson’s long flowing swing and another 70g X-flex shaft from GD can be customized to fit Sergio Garcia’s shorter, hard down-load swing.

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Why is the USGA opposed to a rollback of the ball ?
« Reply #289 on: November 27, 2017, 01:32:22 PM »
I apologize to those who don't like the multi-quoting. It's just what I do, and how I've always used forums. The alternative - making separate posts for each response - never seemed "better" to me than making one post. Though it may not seem like it, I do try to be brief, and quote only the relevant parts.

I'll stick with the R & D guy I spent a day with, who definitely had "degrees in the sciences."
I appreciate that, but I'm likewise going to stick with the people within the industry that I know, just as you are sticking with your guy.

IMO the equipment is in a bit of a corner right now with the rules coming at them from one angle, and the laws of physics coming at them from another angle. Balls can only go so fast, driver faces can only get so hot (and pros hit the center more often than not, hence the "advances" made by the Callaway Epic, which didn't do much for good players but helped single digit guys a fair amount), and you can plug in launch characteristics all day into flight simulators and see theoretical distances, too. I don't foresee the very slow trend of PGA Tour players continuing unless they simply swing faster. (Which, given how they often use a 44" or 44.5" driver, is quite possible.)

Consider the PGA Tour numbers at the bottom, too: only 2-4 yards gained in the last 10 years, despite players swinging 1-4 MPH faster than they did ten years ago.

If they just released something all at once, it wouldn't be too long before their competitors started anticipating the expiration of the patent, and just flat-out copied it, knowing it would be moot by the time it got through the court system.
I don't understand that bit. Patents are good for, what, almost 20 years? What golf equipment company wants to be even ten years behind? And even if a patent lapses, you're still liable and would have to pay damages for breaking the patent when it was valid. I suppose if the patent is super broad, and can be applied with updated new tech you might start to see copies a year or two out from a patent expiration, but that's still 15+ years later, no?

To your last comment, Tom, I think 2-3 years might even be on the short side. The PING G30 driver with the Turbulators was being worked on in the late 2000s (released in 2014, I think?), for example.

I wish the pros today played with the equipment from the 1980s (persimmon, heavy steel shafts, balls). I think fitness and technique have increased the swing speed of the average tour player, but the best 30 years ago were as good as the best today. The ball is not the only culprit, but I don't think the USGA would dream of bringing back the old clubs in addition to reduced distance balls.
That doesn't track for me. The best athletes in every other sport have gotten bigger, faster, stronger - in every other sport - except in golf? I don't buy it.

I was reading the GD Hot List, and one of the big brands now has a 6 iron with 26 degrees of loft. I thought: wasn't that almost called a 4 iron not too long ago?
Feels off topic to me (a bit) so I'll try to keep it short… as you likely know there's more to launch conditions than loft. The shaft, the location of the CG, etc. all play a role. If you built a modern low-CG 6-iron with 33° loft and the same shaft, the thing would launch to the moon. A simple example is Titleist's MB and CB set (and their CB irons are hardly super aggressive in lowering the CG): they could blend at any iron in the set (so maybe you wanted MB from 8-iron on up, CB 7-iron down), and yet the CB was 2° stronger. Yet they launched at the same angles and went the same distances, or close enough that you could blend wherever you wanted within the set. Moving the CG just a few mm was enough to necessitate 2° stronger lofts.

Is there some gaming of the system to have "the longest irons"? Absolutely. But at the same time, some of those changes are necessary because of the "playability" changes they've made to move the CG, widen the soles, expand the clubface, perimeter weight, lower the kick point in the shafts, etc.

One can putt with any of these balls....TW wins were with his putter...while he may have hit it further and it may have sounded different, if he weren't making the putts he would have just been another longball dude...
Tiger won with his driving and his approach shots. Mark Broadie's research, my own research, etc. will validate that. Here's a chart…



I recall here about ten years or so back a number of folks were contending that technology had reach its zenith related to balls and implements and that under the USGA/R&A guidelines nothing more could be accomplished by the manufacturers to increase distance.

With the benefit of hindsight, I think it's pretty clear that view was mistaken.
Was it?

Ten years ago the median on the PGA Tour hit it 288.7 and the top guy hit it 315.2. Clubhead speeds were 112.72 and 124.18.
Last year the median on the PGA Tour hit it 292.5 and the top guy hit it 317.2. Clubhead speeds were 114.04 and 128.18.

Doesn't seem to me that they've gotten anything out of driving distances in the last ten years. Players are swinging between 1.32 and 4 MPH faster and hitting the ball between 2 and 4 yards farther.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 01:35:17 PM by Erik J. Barzeski »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

Pat Burke

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Re: Why is the USGA opposed to a rollback of the ball ?
« Reply #290 on: November 27, 2017, 01:46:08 PM »
If spin is not an important factor to regulate, then it must have not played a roll when Tiger won at Pebble by 15 in 2000.

Tiger had the solid low spin balls that his competitors did not have. Can you really justify that the spin characteristic did not play a roll in him being the only player to ever win a major with a score more than 4 standard deviations below the mean?


He also won the Masters with a Titleist Professional by what...12?  The Nike (Bridgestone) ball he played was actually pretty spinny.  When you see the iron shots Tiger hit into the greens at Pebble, he was getting the ball to stop better than most of his pursuers.  The Bridgestone balls have always been amazing, and were FAR more consistent, ball to ball, than anybody else back then.


So, more spin means less distance....yes


I also believe adjustments will be made by very good players to take the spin right back out of it.  Right now, Justin Thomas, not a big guy, has ridiculous efficiency numbers, a unique attack angle for a great player and has figured a way to hit it miles. 
I was a schlub, but was able to make adjustments to launch it higher (11-12 degrees) with about 2800 (down from just over 3000) in order to pick up about 8 yards on average at 53 years old.  If an old dog can do it, the kids will too, and quickly.

Eric LeFante

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Re: Why is the USGA opposed to a rollback of the ball ?
« Reply #291 on: November 27, 2017, 02:36:35 PM »
I wish the pros today played with the equipment from the 1980s (persimmon, heavy steel shafts, balls). I think fitness and technique have increased the swing speed of the average tour player, but the best 30 years ago were as good as the best today. The ball is not the only culprit, but I don't think the USGA would dream of bringing back the old clubs in addition to reduced distance balls.
That doesn't track for me. The best athletes in every other sport have gotten bigger, faster, stronger - in every other sport - except in golf? I don't buy it.



Do you believe Jack and Greg Norman wouldn't be as long or longer than the longest pros today? How many of today's players could hit Jack's 1 iron shot on 18 at Baltusrol from 238? Jason Day had 254 in the final round in last year's PGA with today's equipment. I don't think you can try to say those two shots are equivalent and the modern 1/2 iron only goes 16 yards longer with today's ball.

I agree professional athletes as a whole are bigger and stronger today than they were, but the very best are the exception. I think you can go through each sport and pick the very best from decades ago and they would still be the best or among the best today.






« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 02:41:23 PM by Eric LeFante »

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Why is the USGA opposed to a rollback of the ball ?
« Reply #292 on: November 27, 2017, 02:51:52 PM »
Do you believe Jack and Greg Norman wouldn't be as long or longer than the longest pros today? How many of today's players could hit Jack's 1 iron shot on 18 at Baltusrol from 238? Jason Day had 254 in the final round in last year's PGA with today's equipment. I don't think you can try to say those two shots are equivalent and the modern 1/2 iron only goes 16 yards longer with today's ball.

I agree professional athletes as a whole are bigger and stronger today than they were, but the very best are the exception. I think you can go through each sport and pick the very best from decades ago and they would still be the best or among the best today.
I don't care to speculate, because it's one (or only a few) guys. Greg was an outlier, and it's difficult to compare outliers. That's why, despite the very clearly stronger fields these days, it's still difficult to compare Tiger vs. Jack: are Tiger's 14 majors (or 17) better than Jack's 18 (or 20)? I think so, but I can easily see why others feel the other way. That's why it's difficult to compare Jordan vs. LeBron. Or Aaron vs. Ruth. They're outliers.

And I think more of the game's top players than not could have hit Jack's 1-iron, while at the same time perhaps only one or two of Jack's peers could have done that.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Why is the USGA opposed to a rollback of the ball ?
« Reply #293 on: November 27, 2017, 03:00:46 PM »
If spin is not an important factor to regulate, then it must have not played a roll when Tiger won at Pebble by 15 in 2000.

Tiger had the solid low spin balls that his competitors did not have. Can you really justify that the spin characteristic did not play a roll in him being the only player to ever win a major with a score more than 4 standard deviations below the mean?


He also won the Masters with a Titleist Professional by what...12?  The Nike (Bridgestone) ball he played was actually pretty spinny.  When you see the iron shots Tiger hit into the greens at Pebble, he was getting the ball to stop better than most of his pursuers.  The Bridgestone balls have always been amazing, and were FAR more consistent, ball to ball, than anybody else back then.


So, more spin means less distance....yes


I also believe adjustments will be made by very good players to take the spin right back out of it.  Right now, Justin Thomas, not a big guy, has ridiculous efficiency numbers, a unique attack angle for a great player and has figured a way to hit it miles. 
I was a schlub, but was able to make adjustments to launch it higher (11-12 degrees) with about 2800 (down from just over 3000) in order to pick up about 8 yards on average at 53 years old.  If an old dog can do it, the kids will too, and quickly.

According to Newton on the Tee, Tiger's masters win ranks 3rd highest in score deviation from the mean at 3.26. Nicklaus (3.56) and Floyd (3.27) both had more significant wins.

According to Newton on the Tee, Tiger's open wins ranks first with a deviation from the mean at 4.75 completely blowing away all other statistics. The point is Tiger played a ball with less spin than others played in a very windy tournament. Spin matters!
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Pat Burke

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Re: Why is the USGA opposed to a rollback of the ball ?
« Reply #294 on: November 27, 2017, 03:14:53 PM »
Spin absolutely matters.  in that Open at Pebble The approach shots Tiger hit the last round on 2, 4, 9, 10, 12, and 15 showed amazing control.
 :)


The Titleist Professional doesn't get enough credit (or derision).  It was much lower spinning than its' predecessors.  Guys who had trouble with too much spin loved that ball.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Why is the USGA opposed to a rollback of the ball ?
« Reply #295 on: November 27, 2017, 03:19:02 PM »
I don’t think the weight is really any different. I bought a Callaway GBB in about 1995 with a 70g shaft. Nobody on Tour today is using less than 65g and most are using more than 70g I believe.


What’s different is that a 70g X-flex shaft from Graphite Design can be customized to fit Phil Mickelson’s long flowing swing and another 70g X-flex shaft from GD can be customized to fit Sergio Garcia’s shorter, hard down-load swing.

What's important is what shafts the tour players were using then and now, vs. what you are using. ;)

Can you explain how the same shaft can be customized for the two different swings? I would be interested to know.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Why is the USGA opposed to a rollback of the ball ?
« Reply #296 on: November 27, 2017, 03:39:15 PM »
Re: players increasing their swing speeds, how much room for increase do you think there may be? Looking at some posted TrackMan numbers for young big-hitters like Justin Thomas, Xander Schauffele and Jon Rahm, it looks like their driver SS is 116-119ish. Rory McIlroy and Jason Day are in that range, and they and other pros are starting to get the kind of injuries that seem to result from hitting thousands of golf shots over many years with the type of swing engineered to produce that sort of speed.


Is the clearly increasing potential for injury going to help elite golfers find a level that gives them the performance they believe they need to compete and the longevity to have a whole, successful career?



A more significant question is whether players figure they really need to plan for long careers. Given the amount of money in the game right now, winning as much as possible now makes more sense than trying to scale back for a long career.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Why is the USGA opposed to a rollback of the ball ?
« Reply #297 on: November 27, 2017, 03:39:37 PM »
Garland,


The understanding of how to maximize distance off the tee is light years ahead of where it was in the 90’s.


It’s not that spin isn’t a consideration, its extremely important. It’s just that the guys everyone is so worried about have the ability and every incentive to figure out how to beat any realistic change to it.

If you can't keep the ball in play, maximizing gains you nothing.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Why is the USGA opposed to a rollback of the ball ?
« Reply #298 on: November 27, 2017, 03:50:59 PM »
Can you explain how the same shaft can be customized for the two different swings? I would be interested to know.
He didn't say the same shaft. He said another 70-gram, X-flex shaft may be more suitable for another player. But even the same shaft in a different flex, or tip trimmed instead of butt trimmed, etc. can produce different results for people.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I ignore Rob, Tim, and Garland.

Garland Bayley

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Re: Why is the USGA opposed to a rollback of the ball ?
« Reply #299 on: November 27, 2017, 04:01:04 PM »
I apologize to those who don't like the multi-quoting. It's just what I do, and how I've always used forums.

As long as you don't use green, you're OK. ;)
...

Feels off topic to me (a bit) so I'll try to keep it short… as you likely know there's more to launch conditions than loft. The shaft, the location of the CG, etc. all play a role. If you built a modern low-CG 6-iron with 33° loft and the same shaft, the thing would launch to the moon. A simple example is Titleist's MB and CB set (and their CB irons are hardly super aggressive in lowering the CG): they could blend at any iron in the set (so maybe you wanted MB from 8-iron on up, CB 7-iron down), and yet the CB was 2° stronger. Yet they launched at the same angles and went the same distances, or close enough that you could blend wherever you wanted within the set. Moving the CG just a few mm was enough to necessitate 2° stronger lofts.

Is there some gaming of the system to have "the longest irons"? Absolutely. But at the same time, some of those changes are necessary because of the "playability" changes they've made to move the CG, widen the soles, expand the clubface, perimeter weight, lower the kick point in the shafts, etc.
...
Let me nit pick this a bit. You talk about low cg. Lowering the cg is a bit of an industry myth that keeps getting passed around. Lowering the cg does very little. Moving it back does far more. Therefore, widening the soles will make an iron launch higher. Lowering the cg will not launch significantly higher.

The shaft can change the launch angle. However it cannot "kick" as the misnamed kick point suggests, which would better be named bend point, would it not?

So if you want to launch that new 6 iron with a 4 iron loft as high as the old 6 irons, you simply build a head with a wide sole and put a women's shaft with a low bend point in it, and you are good to go. ;D
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

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