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David Wuthrich

Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2019, 03:28:12 PM »
I agree with Paul Jones, Wolf Point for sure!

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2019, 04:12:41 PM »
I agree with Paul Jones, Wolf Point for sure!


For another measly $1.5 Million we can get Wolf Point, an additional 1,000 acres, and a landing strip that can handle 737s.  Surely this is chump change for any number of GCAers who publicly ridicule Trump for being such an ignoramus.


https://www.landsofamerica.com/property/State-Highway-172-S-Port-Lavaca-Texas-77979-Port-Lavaca-Texas-77979/6164282


With the vision and smarts demonstrated regularly on this site, any reason why Port Lavaca could not become the Pinehurst of Texas and Mike Nuzzo our modern-day Donald Ross?  If my math is right, all it would take is $8,000 per registered login participant to fund a well-negotiated purchase and a reasonable working capital reserve.  I'd even volunteer to serve as the GP, collect and escrow the funds, and act as the broker for the Buyer.  All takers step up!


Brock Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2019, 09:28:35 PM »

Tom:

Let's assume the goal to just to own something cool/interesting.  What comes to mind?

WW


That's the second time this evening someone has asked me to post business advice here, for free.  Sorry, but that's the sort of thing I get paid for.


Weird reply. Why respond in the first place?

Jeff Loh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2019, 11:06:02 PM »
I don't think it's weird at all.
It's quite obvious that some people are using this non commercial website for FREE info and advice regarding their buying decisions. They know who they are. And it's not cool.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2019, 07:24:43 AM »
 :D


Hey Jeff if someone wants to use this site to glean information regarding good golf course I don't see a problem. Believe me there is a lot more due diligence to buying than we provide here. If its informational and valuable what me worry?


Let's hope whoever the buyer lurking here is they love golf and architecture like most of us!

Scott Weersing

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2019, 07:47:25 AM »
Bandon Crossings could be a good one to buy and you could get it for less than 10 million. https://www.bandoncrossings.com/
I played it back in 2008 with John Kavanaugh on the first day of a trip to Bandon Dunes. Old Mac was under construction so we often added a fourth course to the trip.



I would add Wine Valley as it is remote.


I would also add DMK's Gamble Sands to the list of courses to buy and add to the "network", especially since there are no courses on the West Coast.


I would also consider buying Lawsonia as its two courses are just an hour from Sand Valley.












Brock Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2019, 08:17:41 AM »
I don't think it's weird at all.
It's quite obvious that some people are using this non commercial website for FREE info and advice regarding their buying decisions. They know who they are. And it's not cool.


Forgive my naivety. There are millionaires trolling this website for free info and advise in buying golf properties? Just for the record...I am a HS math teacher from Hesperia, CA that happens to love golf and golf courses with no interest nor the ability to buy golf courses.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 08:53:15 AM by Brock Lynch »

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2019, 09:32:26 AM »
I'm not quite sure why the criticism and anger. It was just meant to be a fun exercise. If I had that kind of money, I'd buy Kingsley. It is in one of my favorite summer places and the golf course is just wonderful.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Ryan Hillenbrand

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2019, 10:43:28 AM »
Dalhousie Golf Club in SE Missouri would fit the Dormie Network portfolio I'd think. Primarily a golf only, national membership with cabins on the property. With Victoria National only 3 hours away, it could fit nicely into a Midwest golf trip. I cant imagine the grounds and operations would be worth anywhere near $10 million.

Philip Hensley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2019, 08:56:44 AM »
Officially announcing the beginning of the Wolf Point Social Club. Will be selling merch featuring the WPSC logo, as well as drawings of imaginary course routings that will never be built. Donations welcome.

Scott Weersing

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2019, 09:10:56 AM »
Officially announcing the beginning of the Wolf Point Social Club. Will be selling merch featuring the WPSC logo, as well as drawings of imaginary course routings that will never be built. Donations welcome.




Here is a actual routing of Wolf Point Ranch.


http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/wolf-point-ranch/


Matt Halliday

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2019, 09:12:29 AM »
Officially announcing the beginning of the Wolf Point Social Club. Will be selling merch featuring the WPSC logo, as well as drawings of imaginary course routings that will never be built. Donations welcome.


Members of the new Wolf Point Social Club will refer to themselves as The Sycophants.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 09:28:51 AM by Matt Halliday »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2019, 09:15:02 AM »
Beats Ballyphants.

Philip Hensley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2019, 09:56:58 AM »
Officially announcing the beginning of the Wolf Point Social Club. Will be selling merch featuring the WPSC logo, as well as drawings of imaginary course routings that will never be built. Donations welcome.




Here is a actual routing of Wolf Point Ranch.


http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/wolf-point-ranch/


I am well aware of the existence of Wolf Point.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2019, 10:10:34 AM »
I'm not quite sure why the criticism and anger. It was just meant to be a fun exercise. If I had that kind of money, I'd buy Kingsley. It is in one of my favorite summer places and the golf course is just wonderful.


Tommy:


The problem that arises is that there are many struggling clubs in America, but nominating one here might imply its finances are iffy, which could be the kiss of death for a place.  (Or even drive down the sale price, like spreading false rumors on Wall Street in an insider trading scam.)  That was always a subtext of the Ballyneal v Dismal River discussions years ago, and one reason they were so nasty.


Apart from that, if we assume this is not a discussion of prospective buys for the Dormie Network, then what is the point of it?  Why does it matter to posters who owns Dalhousie or Kingsley or Wolf Point, as long as they don’t go away?  And why would anyone here want to see Gamble Sands or Wine Valley go private if it wasn’t necessary for them to survive?  That’s why many have jumped to a conclusion about the motive of the original post.


Personally I think it’s a shame some group like The Dormie Club wasn’t around to save High Pointe or Aetna Springs when they failed, but that doesn’t mean I want to see Dismal or Ballyneal bought out from under the memberships who have supported them.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2019, 11:14:09 AM »
The first sentence on the main page of this website is:

"GolfClubAtlas.com exists to promote frank commentary on golf course architecture."

This whole thread concerns business considerations, which are outside the scope of the website.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 11:16:47 AM by John Kirk »

Jeff Loh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2019, 11:30:48 AM »
Thank you Tom.

Philip Hensley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2019, 11:45:23 AM »
Wolf Point was a personal golf course for one man's use, it was not a business. What exactly would anyone be buying, other than the obvious of a golf course with a lot of extra land surrounding it?


The last 4 courses the Dormie Network purchased were nationally known entities and existing businesses. They had varying degrees of infrastructure/facilities already existing on the property. Other than the Dormie Club, they all had some sort of membership base.


Buying Wolf Point would essentially be starting a business from scratch. Anyone that has started a business and/or bought an existing business can tell you there are pros/cons to doing either way. But starting from scratch takes a lot more time. While many on GCA are familiar with Wolf Point, most of the golf world is not.  WP would require a huge amount of time and resources to get it up and going, something that would take years. That would seem to impede the progress of a network that is trying to expand rapidly over the next few years.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2019, 12:49:01 PM »
The first sentence on the main page of this website is:

"GolfClubAtlas.com exists to promote frank commentary on golf course architecture."

This whole thread concerns business considerations, which are outside the scope of the website.


Business considerations provide the entire context for architecture.  I do not think you can meaningfully think about architecture without considering why the course was built in the first place and the financial pressures that impact whether the course survives or thrives.

Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2019, 02:11:04 PM »
Wolf Point was a personal golf course for one man's use, it was not a business. What exactly would anyone be buying, other than the obvious of a golf course with a lot of extra land surrounding it?


The last 4 courses the Dormie Network purchased were nationally known entities and existing businesses. They had varying degrees of infrastructure/facilities already existing on the property. Other than the Dormie Club, they all had some sort of membership base.


Buying Wolf Point would essentially be starting a business from scratch. Anyone that has started a business and/or bought an existing business can tell you there are pros/cons to doing either way. But starting from scratch takes a lot more time. While many on GCA are familiar with Wolf Point, most of the golf world is not.  WP would require a huge amount of time and resources to get it up and going, something that would take years. That would seem to impede the progress of a network that is trying to expand rapidly over the next few years.
While you may think you know what you’re talking about in reference to Wolf Point, you really don’t have the first clue. I am no longer there on a day to day basis but I can promise you your comment about “require huge amount of time and resources” is inaccurate.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2019, 02:14:25 PM »
The first sentence on the main page of this website is:

"GolfClubAtlas.com exists to promote frank commentary on golf course architecture."

This whole thread concerns business considerations, which are outside the scope of the website.


Business considerations provide the entire context for architecture.  I do not think you can meaningfully think about architecture without considering why the course was built in the first place and the financial pressures that impact whether the course survives or thrives.


Damned near fell out of my chair.  I never hoped to reach John Kirk- he exists in a totally different dimension- but it looks like someone I hadn't expected might be taking notice.  Right on!  As much as some would like, you can't separate any capital intensive endeavor from business, economics and finance.  Blow up free enterprise in pursuit of an egalitarian utopia and the fate of golf will be sealed.


I see nothing untoward about this thread.  My bet is that the owner of Wolf Point would be delighted to entertain a serious offer from this august group.


As to discussion on this site being the kiss of death for clubs on the margin, I've worked on many distressed properties in my real estate career and keeping it hush-hush was never a strategy.  In most cases, providing maximum exposure is helpful in finding the needle-in-a-haystack buyer.  I would like to see WP survive and thrive.  This would likely require a very large national membership made up of golf architecture aficionados and sportsmen.  Are we it?     

Philip Hensley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2019, 03:03:58 PM »
Wolf Point was a personal golf course for one man's use, it was not a business. What exactly would anyone be buying, other than the obvious of a golf course with a lot of extra land surrounding it?


The last 4 courses the Dormie Network purchased were nationally known entities and existing businesses. They had varying degrees of infrastructure/facilities already existing on the property. Other than the Dormie Club, they all had some sort of membership base.


Buying Wolf Point would essentially be starting a business from scratch. Anyone that has started a business and/or bought an existing business can tell you there are pros/cons to doing either way. But starting from scratch takes a lot more time. While many on GCA are familiar with Wolf Point, most of the golf world is not.  WP would require a huge amount of time and resources to get it up and going, something that would take years. That would seem to impede the progress of a network that is trying to expand rapidly over the next few years.
While you may think you know what you’re talking about in reference to Wolf Point, you really don’t have the first clue. I am no longer there on a day to day basis but I can promise you your comment about “require huge amount of time and resources” is inaccurate.


While you may think you know what you're talking about in reference to my post, you really don't have the first clue.


The Dormie Network model is a national membership model that requires onsite lodging in the form of multiple cabins and a clubhouse big enough to house a pro shop, office space, and restaurant with enough seating for golfers that will likely be eating all 3 meals there, in addition to hanging out and drinking. Can the current clubhouse do that? Is there room for 80 people to eat dinner inside a 3 hour time window and a kitchen large enough to handle that kind of volume, let alone storage for that amount of food?


Are there any cabins currently on the property? Enough to house 70-80 people, one to a room?


Is there a currently a membership base to revolve a business around?


What is a maintenance plan for the rest of the acreage that isn't the golf course and how much does that cost to maintain?


Right now the listing for the property is $11.5 million.




$11.5 million before you've even done a thing.


No lodging.
Clubhouse too small.
No membership.
Vast non-golf lands to maintain.


You're right, what would be so expensive and time consuming about that?!






Don Mahaffey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2019, 03:09:19 PM »
Like I said.
You have no clue

Philip Hensley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2019, 03:36:27 PM »
Like I said.
You have no clue


Great contribution to the discussion. Thanks for chiming in.


We're all ears if you would like to fill us in on the progress of Wolf Point. If not, that's fine also, though rather weird you just jump in the discussion for hit-and-runs with no elaboration.


According to Mike Nuzzo, on the Feed the Ball podcast in June of last year, nothing has been going on at Wolf Point and it is for sale. The link for the property listing has been in this thread.


Many things could have changed since last June, and I am happy to be corrected. Yet the point remains, that to take Wolf Point from a private course for one man to a large membership club like the Dormie Network will require more time and resources than would be required for a club that already has a membership base and facilities built.


Don, how many Wolf Point Social Club hats would you like?

Jeff Loh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: $10M & Change
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2019, 04:23:06 PM »
Golf architecture=Land based art form.
The artist doesn't care about money. Only the owners.
Finance is a long way down the ladder of motivation for an artist.

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