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Tim Gallant

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Templates 2.0
« on: December 10, 2018, 02:52:50 PM »
I couldn't find a thread if this has already been a topic, but!


Let's say you were in charge of golf in a remote country that had no golf courses. You want to build a course worthy of the great game and have decided to create a golf course using the best collection of golf holes from around the world, or elements of the best holes from around the world.


My question: Which holes / elements would you select?


My caveat: It can't be a hole / element that was used by Macdonald / Raynor.

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Greg Smith

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Re: Templates 2.0
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2018, 06:30:45 PM »
Well, I'll start off with the (bunkerless) 7th at Inverness.  Question is -- could that be construed as a "Leven" hole and be kicked out of consideration?
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Jeff Schley

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Re: Templates 2.0
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2018, 02:37:52 AM »
Tough caveat Tim as certainly The Redan was the first thing that popped into my mind.  Then the Biarriatz and Eden.  Perhaps one unintended purpose of your caveat is to show how influential Macdonald and Raynor were?

For a Par 3, the easy low hanging fruit is the island green 17th at TPC Sawgrass.

For a short Par 4 I'd lean towards the 10th at Riviera, especially the complex green for such a hole.
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Tim Gallant

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Re: Templates 2.0
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2018, 08:34:12 AM »
Greg,


I think there are probably elements of Leven in the 7th, but as official, I'll allow that entry! It's a fantastic hole that marries strategic and heroic golf (with that uphill second!).


Jeff,


I'd argue that 17 at TPC is just a very very penal short template.


However, 10 at Riv is absolutely one I'd use - great suggestion.


I'll add two to the mix: to my knowledge Macdonald or Raynor never used a boomerang green like the 7th at Crystal Downs. That is a green that I would use. I know the double plateau could be similar, but to me, the bend of the green and tilt that allows making a putt from one side to the other possible, even if it's blind!


The second would be the 17th at Oakmont. Another drivable par-4, to me this is quintessential strategy.
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Ira Fishman

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Re: Templates 2.0
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2018, 08:55:23 AM »
I think about this question in terms of holes that are pretty similar that I think are very strong and therefore would do well on any course:


Swinley Forest 4, Royal Dornoch 2, and St George's Hill 3.  Medium long Par 3s playing to narrow in front, drops on sides, and back to front greens.


Pasatiempo 14, Pacific Dunes 16, and The Island Club 5.  Beautiful, dramatic contoured fairways where there is clear preferred side.


Woking 3, Cypress Point 12, and Old White 6.  Bend around Par 4s with very natural green sites.


Royal Dornoch 4, Golspie 9, and Brora 10.  Slight right to left sloping fairways toward green that enable creative ground game.


Brora 18 and Hope Valley 18.  Longish Par 3s to elevated greens that have severe false front.


Woking 4 and Pacific Dunes 2.  Defining the use of centerline bunker.


St. George's Hill 1, Pasatiempo 1, River Course at Kohler 5, and Primland 7.  Beautifully framed Par 4s from elevated tee back up to green that is protected but still open in front. 


Mid Pines 12 and Bandon Trails 13.  Sweet doglegs to angled, tricky greens.


Cypress Point 9, Bandon Trails 14, and Pacific Dunes 6.  Self-explanatory I think.


Ira
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Michael Wolf

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Re: Templates 2.0
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2018, 09:39:27 AM »
First at Oakmont for me. Everyone would benefit from needing to know how to playing the approach shot.


MW
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Dan Gallaway

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Re: Templates 2.0
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2018, 09:46:33 AM »
Talking Stick North #2/Streamsong Red #7?


Are there enough similarities among Old Mac #7/N Berwick #13/Boston GC(not sure of #, but looks similar, but to the right)
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 11:59:26 AM by Dan Gallaway »
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Tim Gallant

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Re: Templates 2.0
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2018, 02:54:04 PM »
Quote from: Dan Gallaway on December 11, 2018, 09:46:33 AM
Talking Stick North #2/Streamsong Red #7?


Are there enough similarities among Old Mac #7/N Berwick #13/Boston GC(not sure of #, but looks similar, but to the right)


Dan,

Talk to me a little bit about TS North and Streamsong Red 7. I haven't played either, so would be curious.


Old Mac is a homage to Macdonald, so would guess anything on that course is a template. NB 13 though...I like the concept of Pit as a template.


Michael,


Agreed on #1 Oakmont. Utilising a downhill approach to a green that runs away would be something I would incorporate.


What about Friar's #10? I love that as a template potentially.
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Sean_A

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Re: Templates 2.0
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2018, 04:46:53 PM »
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 05:25:38 AM by Sean_A »
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Kevin Neary

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Re: Templates 2.0
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2018, 05:58:33 PM »
7th at Pine Valley.
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Templates 2.0
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2018, 07:20:45 PM »
!0th @ Riviera


12th @ Augusta National


17th @ TPC Scottsdale
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MLevesque

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Re: Templates 2.0
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2018, 09:52:20 PM »
8th pebble Beach13th Augusta National and 10th at Yale "Carries" (generally not considered a Macdonald/Raynor template)
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 07:24:59 AM by MLevesque »
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Dan Gallaway

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Re: Templates 2.0
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2018, 08:35:50 PM »
Quote from: Tim Gallant on December 11, 2018, 02:54:04 PM
Quote from: Dan Gallaway on December 11, 2018, 09:46:33 AM
Talking Stick North #2/Streamsong Red #7?


Are there enough similarities among Old Mac #7/N Berwick #13/Boston GC(not sure of #, but looks similar, but to the right)


Dan,

Talk to me a little bit about TS North and Streamsong Red 7. I haven't played either, so would be curious.


Old Mac is a homage to Macdonald, so would guess anything on that course is a template. NB 13 though...I like the concept of Pit as a template.

#7 is actually an original.  Somewhat similar to Pit in that your approach requires 100% commitment or your 3rd may be even harder.  Harder mentally than physically.  This from a guy who hasn’t played N Berwick yet, fingers crossed for 2020
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Mark Pearce

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Re: Templates 2.0
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2018, 05:11:33 AM »
Muirfield 9 (bunkering left off the tee, OOB hard by the hole on left, green offset left from fairway and bunkered rioght), Silloth 13 (second and third shots playing up a spine),


Elie 13 (shelved, angled green sloping away), Foxy?, Golspie 9 (long right to left dogleg with large, deep depression short left of green), Elie 4 (spine running length of fairway and through green)


Silloth 9 (short, can't miss long or right), Golspie 16 (long, two tiered, penal miss right)
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Ira Fishman

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Re: Templates 2.0
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2018, 09:13:31 AM »
Mark,


I had Golspie #9 in my post as well. #16 is a great choice too. So many terrific holes at Golspie that reinforce each other. The course is underrated.
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Thomas Dai

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Re: Templates 2.0
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2018, 09:33:43 AM »
No mention yet of the beloved 18th at Kington......or the 5th at Painswick (a proper volcano).
:)

Atb
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Sean_A

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Re: Templates 2.0
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2018, 07:11:38 PM »
Quote from: Thomas Dai on December 15, 2018, 09:33:43 AM
No mention yet of the beloved 18th at Kington......or the 5th at Painswick (a proper volcano).
 :)

Atb


ATB


I didn't mention Painswick's 5th because I don't think its a great idea taking the Volcano concept to the extreme of only shots over the top are in play.  How does grandma play that hole?  For sure, not one of my favourites. 


Ciao
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Peter Flory

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Re: Templates 2.0
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2018, 02:22:58 AM »
Quote from: Tim Gallant on December 11, 2018, 08:34:12 AM
I'll add two to the mix: to my knowledge Macdonald or Raynor never used a boomerang green like the 7th at Crystal Downs. That is a green that I would use. I know the double plateau could be similar, but to me, the bend of the green and tilt that allows making a putt from one side to the other possible, even if it's blind!

I was thinking similarly with #6 at the University of Michigan course.  Although it is interesting that the course also has a par 3 variant of it at the 14th. 

Photo of the approach pitch:


Here is an old photo from a project that they did to expand the top section (assuming to it's original size):


Due to the short length of the hole... it being almost drivable, that small upper section actually worked, but the problem was that there was basically 1 pin position possible up there. 

The fun part about the hole is using the massive slope to get the ball close to bottom pin placements though. 

This is the signature hole of the course and it is both fun and strategic.  If I had to design a course and could not use my own ideas or other known templates, this would definitely be one that I'd use. 


It also reminds me a little bit of 7 at Ballyneal in terms of the fun of the approach shot with still an element of danger. 


« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 02:38:24 AM by Peter Flory »
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Ronald Montesano

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Re: Templates 2.0
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2018, 09:19:05 PM »
11th at Pasatiempo?


How many of these are dependent on the ground on which they lie? Ground that would be impossible to replicate.
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