News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Can you ever get the drainage right?
« on: October 18, 2018, 11:37:02 AM »
There have been a few problem spots on my course for a long time that our former super didn't address. However, after all the rain we had this spring and summer (20 inches more than normal with some three to five inch days) water has puddled where it never has before.


Is drainage something that needs constantly needs to be addressed?
How much does thatch contribute to to water sitting on top of the turf? Our former super had not aerated the fairways in ten years.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you ever get the drainage right?
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2018, 12:25:28 PM »

Tommy,


drainage needs constant attention. Good deep drainage of 4 foot plus (6 is better) will help not only the deep profile but also the longevity of the drainage as 4" pipes 6 foot down can often still be clean as a whistle 200 years on. Unfortunately much of todays goes in 18" to 2' which does not do as good a job and often lasts less than 3 decades before silting up. As for aeration, regular slitting of the fairway i.e monthly at the very least will work wonders but it depends on the grass types.


Jon

Peter Pallotta

Re: Can you ever get the drainage right?
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2018, 10:42:16 PM »
You know what I don't understand? How come the park at the end of my street drains better after a heavy rain than the golf course 10 blocks away? The golf course has its design/slopes and its drainage pipes and its maintenance crews and its special grasses etc, while the park is just a flat field of plain old grass that the parks guy mows with a John Deere once every couple of weeks -- but after a rain the fairways are mushy underfoot, while the field feels solid and is not even muddy.
I'm squishing my way along the fairways and the course doesn't feel 'healthy', and meanwhile the kids are playing soccer and tossing around a baseball on a field that seems just the same as always.
What gives?
Are folks tinkering with golf courses too much instead of not enough when it comes to good drainage?

P

« Last Edit: October 18, 2018, 11:11:48 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you ever get the drainage right?
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2018, 11:21:33 PM »
Peter, just because kids are playing soccer or some other low-impact sport on a park field doesn't mean it would be suitable for golf.  Serving on my green committee for several years (course built on clay) and having three boys playing football, lacrosse and baseball in the same zip code has enlightened me about the special demands of a golf course vs an athletic field/pitch.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Peter Pallotta

Re: Can you ever get the drainage right?
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2018, 11:30:59 PM »
Oh, I'm sure there are answers/reasons, Kevin, and that supers and architects and folks like you and SL who sit on green committees would know. But just as a layman, when at the park some kids in cleats don't even seem to kick up much mud let alone chew up the 'turf', it's hard to understand the standing water and general mushiness on a golf course that, besides having drain pipes etc, was also presumably designed with water flows-drainage specifically in mind.
P

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you ever get the drainage right?
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2018, 11:45:51 PM »
 8)  Depends what right is... 


As an engineer dealing with industrial drainage design, a common spec is using a 1 hr, 10 year frequency storm event for collection and conveyance design, but a 24 hr, 25 year frequency event for containment.   No matter how much you spend for drainage, there's likely an event or series of events that will exceed the design basis and we're talking surface and subsurface hydrology, geo-hydrology at play.  Take a look at an analytical tool at


https://www.epa.gov/water-research/storm-water-management-model-swmm#downloads


Peter, perhaps you need to take a small garden auger and screw it into the ground at both the course and the ball field and yank it out and to see what's on the auger flights at both locations..  might be instructive
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Greg Chambers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you ever get the drainage right?
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2018, 01:07:45 AM »
Oh, I'm sure there are answers/reasons, Kevin, and that supers and architects and folks like you and SL who sit on green committees would know. But just as a layman, when at the park some kids in cleats don't even seem to kick up much mud let alone chew up the 'turf', it's hard to understand the standing water and general mushiness on a golf course that, besides having drain pipes etc, was also presumably designed with water flows-drainage specifically in mind.
P


Poor drainage?  Or poor irrigation?  No amount of drainage can overcome poor irrigation practices.
"It's good sportsmanship to not pick up lost golf balls while they are still rolling.”

John Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you ever get the drainage right?
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2018, 01:29:51 PM »
I’m a firm believer that there’s usually never enough drainage.  I’m not sure where you are located but drainage (and tree removal) projects are a great winter time project. It allows you to keep a couple extra on staff too.
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you ever get the drainage right?
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2018, 04:20:10 PM »
Our dilemma is that while we are in the VA mountains the course sits in a little valley and has little elevation change. There is a creek we can drain into but it is pretty far away from some of the low lying areas. We need to catch the water before it gets to the fairways.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Can you ever get the drainage right?
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2018, 04:38:21 PM »
I’m a firm believer that there’s usually never enough drainage.  I’m not sure where you are located but drainage (and tree removal) projects are a great winter time project. It allows you to keep a couple extra on staff too.


On a recent project we let the superintendent spec the drainage, and he basically specified doing everything within 50 yards of the green to USGA green specs, only with less sand depth.  Then he resigned, and his successor begged us to cut it back.  He had been at another course where they'd done something similar, and he had to waste a lot of water when it was dry to keep the soil above the drainage lines from drying out and showing a herringbone pattern in the turf.


This was in a location where they had four inches of rain last year.


I understand that drainage is critically important in wet locations, but there's got to be a limit on how practical it is to keep adding more.  You don't build the church for Easter Sunday, as the saying goes.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you ever get the drainage right?
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2018, 04:50:57 PM »
  You don't build the church for Easter Sunday, as the saying goes.


Our dilemma is that we built the "church" for July 4th. Now when any little rain comes we have four fairways that just cannot handle the water.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you ever get the drainage right?
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2018, 04:52:37 PM »
He had been at another course where they'd done something similar, and he had to waste a lot of water when it was dry to keep the soil above the drainage lines from drying out and showing a herringbone pattern in the turf.




Classic sign of the drainage been too shallow.

John Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you ever get the drainage right?
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2018, 09:40:05 PM »
I’m a firm believer that there’s usually never enough drainage.  I’m not sure where you are located but drainage (and tree removal) projects are a great winter time project. It allows you to keep a couple extra on staff too.


On a recent project we let the superintendent spec the drainage, and he basically specified doing everything within 50 yards of the green to USGA green specs, only with less sand depth.  Then he resigned, and his successor begged us to cut it back.  He had been at another course where they'd done something similar, and he had to waste a lot of water when it was dry to keep the soil above the drainage lines from drying out and showing a herringbone pattern in the turf.


This was in a location where they had four inches of rain last year.


I understand that drainage is critically important in wet locations, but there's got to be a limit on how practical it is to keep adding more.  You don't build the church for Easter Sunday, as the saying goes.


Maybe I need to elaborate on my original thoughts.  In a an environment that receives very little rain I think having too much drainage can be over kill, and yes, the dryer months can expose drain lines.  But in the Midwest (where I am) where rain is prevalent, drains can be life saving especially during the hot and humid points of the summer.  Having water logged fairways and rough can be a major problem especially for revenue, and especially, violent turf diseases.  There lies the trade off.  I know the majority of superintendents (in the Midwest) would kill to to have money for a major capital improvement drainage project.  I guess I’m long windedly saying that it’s relative to where you are located, soil type, and the amount of average rainfall. 
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you ever get the drainage right?
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2018, 12:22:59 PM »
Tommy,


It doesn't look like there's more than 200 yards width in the course holes there and the valley and Stony Creek drainage heads north... 


Is the run-on problem with the ribbon of holes north of the tennis courts or those south seen between Lake Carrol and Lake Laura as reference landmarks? 


Are there a lot of springs in Orkney Springs area? 


West side of valley looks more developed than east side going up to Supin Lick Ridge, I'd think an interceptor of some sort could help reroute the run-on from either side, but the flat topography and getting into Stony Creek is problematic as you mentioned.


What's typical elevation of water in Stony Creek during dry weather versus fairways?


All questions that would need to be answered, amongst others...
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you ever get the drainage right?
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2018, 06:39:46 PM »
The holes north of the tennis courts are the most problematic. As you surmised water drains from the town houses on the extreme north of the property. I agree that we need to intercept the water before it gets to the fairways. We control the height of the water in Stony Creek by how much water we let out of Lake Laura. It never really overflows its banks but the drains we have that empty into the creek are inefficient because the creek isn't much lower than the fairways.
We do not have any springs where we are and Orkney Springs only has one left. It used to be hot springs.
Thanks for all you research. Our new super will have his hands full.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you ever get the drainage right?
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2018, 03:27:34 PM »

It's hard to get drainage right.  As one super has said, "you don't add drainage to a course every year.....just the years you work there."


One of the reasons is adding catch basins is counterintuitive to good drainage in some ways.  You slow down and trap water that wants to flow freely, even if contour dictates it must stop at the basin.  Free flowing water after it reaches concentration velocity is a bad thing for turf and must be controlled, but anytime you slow water down in a low area, if it sits too long around the catch basin, the repeated sogginess isn't good for turf either.  Not to mention, once you concentrate flow in a pipe, water velocity problems at the exit (if not in a pond or stream) aren't great for turf, and require rip rap to slow flow, etc. 


Like a lot of other golf construction things, you solve one problem, but create another one in the process of creating the artificial landscape for golf.  It never gets any simpler.


BTW, I am not familiar with the examples Tommy is speaking of, but it is usually a mistake to take care of surface drainage problems with subsurface solutions, i.e., French drains.  Not sure, but sounds like that is what they tried.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you ever get the drainage right?
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2018, 04:46:25 PM »

It's hard to get drainage right.  As one super has said, "you don't add drainage to a course every year.....just the years you work there."


One of the reasons is adding catch basins is counterintuitive to good drainage in some ways. 

My home course probably has 100+ catch basins, mostly in closely-mown areas, in front, sides and back of greens, and some LZs off the tee.  Typical lies are soft, tight, thin, much too often divoted, and that's during the growing season. 

Management would respond to complaints with "practice and hit more greens" (for poorly conditioned bunkers with lining coming through the surface: "bunkers are meant to be hazards").  Most of the members believe that the course drains well, but I think it has a lot to do with an unusually liberal off-the paths cart policy (play drops considerably when CPO is posted, though quite a few members disregard the signs once past the view from the clubhouse, 1, 10 & 18).

You know the course.  Questions:  what alternatives are there to catch basins on a fairly flat site?  Once graded and built, are the solutions possible without moving large amounts of dirt and $$$$$? 

 

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you ever get the drainage right?
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2018, 05:18:07 AM »
Drainage.
I'm used to mediterranean climates, where drainage in summer is irrelevant, and irrigation in winter is irrelevant.  Drainage is primarily about keeping the course firm and dry through the winter.  Having healthy turf with deep, dry roots in late autumn is ideal and reduces the need for as much drainage despite the soil type (as long as the water moves, can get collected (collected, not contained) and then piped away from the rest of the playing surfaces. If you can understand where the water is likely to want to go, and where it came from, drainage solutions can be developed.  If the water is coming from your own irrigation system through over-watering, then the drainage solution is easy - turn the taps down.
I know nothing about tropical climates where rain and warm weather combine.  It must be terrible for disease.  I expect the amount of water that must be 'drained' in these situations is far more than the mediterranean climate issues.  Surface drainage is important for both, but I expect particularly for the tropical downpours.
I'm probably showing my ignorance here, but why do golf courses in tropical climates with year-round rainfall really need such extensive irrigation systems?  I understand greens, surrounds and tees but fairways?  How long is a 'drought'?  A fortnight, or more?

One thing common to both climates is that the living plant (the turf) wants water, nutrients, sunlight and air.  Too much water invariably means no air.

A very wise man in Melbourne told me that the first key to working out what drainage is really needed is to turn the taps dwn for a summer, and see what issues you have the following winter.  They will be the real issues.
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you ever get the drainage right?
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2018, 10:35:08 AM »

It's hard to get drainage right.  As one super has said, "you don't add drainage to a course every year.....just the years you work there."


One of the reasons is adding catch basins is counterintuitive to good drainage in some ways. 

My home course probably has 100+ catch basins, mostly in closely-mown areas, in front, sides and back of greens, and some LZs off the tee.  Typical lies are soft, tight, thin, much too often divoted, and that's during the growing season. 

Management would respond to complaints with "practice and hit more greens" (for poorly conditioned bunkers with lining coming through the surface: "bunkers are meant to be hazards").  Most of the members believe that the course drains well, but I think it has a lot to do with an unusually liberal off-the paths cart policy (play drops considerably when CPO is posted, though quite a few members disregard the signs once past the view from the clubhouse, 1, 10 & 18).

You know the course.  Questions:  what alternatives are there to catch basins on a fairly flat site?  Once graded and built, are the solutions possible without moving large amounts of dirt and $$$$$? 

 



Lou,


In bridge design, the cost of the spans should be about equal to the cost of the piers, which indicates a cost efficient design.  In drainage, I suppose the equivalent would be the cost of basins/pipes should equal the cost of earthmoving for most cost efficiency.  I


You want surface drainage at a minimum of 3%, and pipes drain well at under 1%.  On flat ground, sometimes pipes and basins are the only answer.  Sure, you could build up one side of the fw and use all dirt (presuming uphill drainage could be moved around, usually, it can't)  Or, you could raise it a foot and add numerous catch basins for a lot less money.



It helps to put the basins in less critical areas, like in the rough outside the fw, but its not always possible.  Also, around greens, its a bad idea to let uphill drainage of even an acre drain to heavy cart path use areas. And, most greens have a primary entrance between path and green, and its hard to have a long swale go through that area, so at least one CB is required just to keep the traffic way high and dry.


Lastly, it doesn't help that the mantra is no catch basins, and if necessary small ones to reduce visual impact.  In most cases, the catch basin is the limiting factor in system capacity, and small basins in the name of aesthetics often are a problem in themselves.

James,


Would disagree that summer drainage is irrelevant, at least in most climates.  I also have a project in the desert of Las Vegas where we extensively collected nuisance water that comes from above the golf course, like adjacent homeowners over watering their lawns, washing cars, draining swimming pools, etc. 


Repeated small flow can diminish turf and doesn't always come just from overwatering your golf course, at least on non-core type layouts.  This course was careful not to overwater, because their water quality was so bad.  We had to grade a flat site at minimum 4% to make sure the irrigation water didn't sit in the heat, or it would kill the grass.  This is another factor here in the US that will probably lead to more extensive drainage in previously unneeded areas.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 10:37:14 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you ever get the drainage right?
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2018, 11:10:15 AM »
 8)  Tommy, & all..


In case you've never looked at NOAA rainfall data, check out the short-long (5-min to 60-day) term info available at


https://hdsc.nws.noaa.gov/hdsc/pfds/pfds_map_cont.html?bkmrk=va


 
« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 11:13:05 AM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you ever get the drainage right?
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2018, 08:14:55 PM »
Lastly, it doesn't help that the mantra is no catch basins, and if necessary small ones to reduce visual impact.  In most cases, the catch basin is the limiting factor in system capacity, and small basins in the name of aesthetics often are a problem in themselves.

I hope that the catch basin is a thing of the past, though based on your comments about costs, I am doubtful.  On one hole alone today, I counted 10 in closely mown areas, most collecting balls as much as water (judging from the # of divots and wet, tight turf).

Since there does not seem to be an economical solution, I am making an attitude adjustment by carefully noting their location and treating them as strategic challenges.  For example, on #10, a long par 4 with the right front half of the green protected by a deep hollow canting on all sides to a large drain at the bottom, no matter where the hole location is, the approach is to the left half which is graded toward a large bunker on that side.  I have yet to figure out how to deal with the many sprinkler and valve heads in the front and side fringes.  I suppose that the new attitude should include these necessary things as adding interest and strategy to the design.  ::)

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Can you ever get the drainage right?
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2018, 11:02:12 PM »
Tommy,
This year has been exceptionally wet (bad) for superintendents here in the North East.  Many would call it the worst year of their careers so wouldn’t jump to too many conclusions based on 2018.  However, drainage is always a constant concern on most courses and one that can change over time due to many factors.  Many courses end up becoming “catch basins” for runoff from surrounding communities.  We are dealing with that now on several projects.  The project I worked on with Greg Martin in Chicago at Oak Meadows was entirely about drainage issues and how to manage water during heavy rainfalls.  The list goes on and the solutions constantly vary. 

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back