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David Cronheim

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Re: Union League Torresdale Redesign - Rees Jones?
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2018, 03:34:29 PM »
Living in NJ has afforded me a front row seat to a number of Rees debacles, including one at a club I subsequently resigned from because I was unwilling to fund a large assessment for Rees' work. In my opinion, reasonable minds disagree about the merits of his original designs, but as a "restorer" of golf courses, he is simply not very good. In large part, I think this is because his conception of what constitutes a "restoration" is quite different than his peers.


At a meeting he ran at the aforementioned club from which I resigned, I listened to his presentation and then asked the following question:


"Mr. Jones, during your presentation I heard you use the phrase 'Ross-like' four times, 'in the style of Ross three times' and 'patterned after Ross' twice. Can you please explain to the club why you think a renovation is more appropriate than a restoration?"

Jones demurred that what he was proposing was a restoration. After I pressed him further on his definition, he said it was "restoration style," sat down abruptly and referred my follow-up questions to his assistant who did an admirable job of trying to defend his plan. I left that meeting with the impression that Rees was temperamentally unsuited to doing restoration work of the type that this site seems to adore. That type of work implies subordinating much of one's own ideas to the recreation of another architect's work. I just don't think Rees likes doing that, but he bids on the projects because that's pretty much all that's out there.


Lastly, I'd say that even someone like me who thinks the evidence has borne out that he is not good at restorations, would say the problem is he's got a prominent enough name to get projects at really top flight clubs. To my first point, take a quick look at how many clubs have hired other architects to remove Rees' recent work (Hollywood springs to top of mind or Montclair where he volunteered his services and the club subsequently hired someone else). To my second point, it's not that he's THAT bad, it's that he's a poor choice for clubs doing restorations that turn out like the currently critically acclaimed ones.


I wouldn't hire him, but that's a personal choice and one based on my belief that when he says "Restoration" he means "Rees-storation."
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Nick Ribeiro

Re: Union League Torresdale Redesign - Rees Jones?
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2018, 04:23:24 PM »
Hi Nick,

My opinion and impressions are based on playing 20 of his original designs and 17 where he did some type of renovation, whether intended to be restoration or revision.   In the case of the latter, I think he makes everything look like a Rees Jones course no matter who the original architect, whether by intent or inadvertently.

I really like the Torresdale-Frankford course and think it has great bones.   I hope the Union League effort is successful in getting what they want.


Assuming you didnt like any of the 17 renovations / restorations / redesigns, where there any original designs you liked?

Nick Ribeiro

Re: Union League Torresdale Redesign - Rees Jones?
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2018, 04:26:58 PM »



I think Mike Cirba has been very fair in his critiquing of Rees Jones original work.  Just my recollection from this site.


As for the Rees work on the classics..... I think it has been a complete failure.  Granted, it can only be judged in the context of the clubs mission statement and what they "want" but twenty years ago, when Rees was doing a lot of his butchery clubs were not very educated on process. 


I suspect he is selling the same stuff he always have but because of the great work in revision of others it is a lot harder sell.


His work on my home course was an unmitigated disaster, perhaps self imposed, but I tend to think not when he had the gall to criticize the team (architect as well as those within the club) involved in truly "restoring" the club. 


In 2018 who in their right mind would hire Rees for any golf project especially one on an older course.


The only information I have seen has classified the work at Union League as a redesign as posted above. ~
http://www.reesjonesinc.com/union-league/

Did your club hire him for a restoration or redesign? I ask the question because I am wondering if you were unhappy with your boards intentions? If they just did not know what they wanted? Or if they just told Rees do whatever you like and you were unhappy with the outcome?
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 04:29:59 PM by Nick Ribeiro »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Union League Torresdale Redesign - Rees Jones?
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2018, 04:48:15 PM »
My concern is that the club may have hired him for his name and expect a restoration.
AKA Mayday

Nick Ribeiro

Re: Union League Torresdale Redesign - Rees Jones?
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2018, 05:23:43 PM »
My concern is that the club may have hired him for his name and expect a restoration.


Mike,


The GM of Union League is highly regarded as possibly the best GM in the country? From a financial standpoint its amazing what he has done for that club. I assume the board at the UL he deals with is part of the clubs success. Rees announced on his website he was specifically hired for redesign. I have a very hard time believing a GM of Mr McFaddens caliber and the board members of the Union League don't know the difference between a restoration and redesign.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Union League Torresdale Redesign - Rees Jones?
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2018, 06:40:29 PM »
My concern is that the club may have hired him for his name and expect a restoration.


Mike,


The GM of Union League is highly regarded as possibly the best GM in the country? From a financial standpoint its amazing what he has done for that club. I assume the board at the UL he deals with is part of the clubs success. Rees announced on his website he was specifically hired for redesign. I have a very hard time believing a GM of Mr McFaddens caliber and the board members of the Union League don't know the difference between a restoration and redesign.


A GM's bailiwick is on the business end. As long as the project remains on budget for what the membership are willing to pay, the GM will likely have very little to say about the matter one way or the other. In the end does it really matter what we think? It's his membership and his bill to pay.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Union League Torresdale Redesign - Rees Jones?
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2018, 07:22:55 PM »
In the end does it really matter what we think? It's his membership and his bill to pay.


It's the Union League, of course it matters what we GCA goobers think!! Seriously, they can change their name, but if they use the "Abraham Lincoln" card on their website, (and they do) I retain my right to comment !!





That said, I have never played Torresdale, so I will not comment on the need to restore vs redesign! :) I honestly don't know.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 07:24:45 PM by Mike Sweeney »
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Union League Torresdale Redesign - Rees Jones?
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2018, 07:44:44 PM »
My concern is that the club may have hired him for his name and expect a restoration.


Mike,


The GM of Union League is highly regarded as possibly the best GM in the country? From a financial standpoint its amazing what he has done for that club. I assume the board at the UL he deals with is part of the clubs success. Rees announced on his website he was specifically hired for redesign. I have a very hard time believing a GM of Mr McFaddens caliber and the board members of the Union League don't know the difference between a restoration and redesign.


I was contacted by someone on the selection committee looking for info on the top restoration architects. He lost in his effort to expand the search.
AKA Mayday

corey miller

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Re: Union League Torresdale Redesign - Rees Jones?
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2018, 08:04:22 PM »



Nick

I was involved in a highly successful renovation/restoration project and I am not even sure how to describe what is currently going on.  I do know most all people like to hear the term "restoration" and I am sure that is what Rees and others fly with. 

That does not mean what they propose is what they do?

My club had little documentary evidence the things we had detailed photos we restored (that was easy because they were Macdonald concept holes or ones with bold features) the others we renovated. 

That said, and I am sure a cop-out, I continued to say restoration because Hanse/Bahto restored a classic look. 

Rees worked at the club in the early nineties and though I do not know the mandate what he did was architectural malpractice.  I would be hesitant to say all this but Rees also had the gall to also critique in a most ungentlemanly way the work we were doing.  Work that he had not seen in person and work that wound up showing how terrible his work was on our course.

Glad we are still listed on his site as a client. :)

MCirba

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Re: Union League Torresdale Redesign - Rees Jones?
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2018, 08:25:51 PM »
Nick,


I like his very early work like Arcadian Shores and also am a fan of Olde Kinderhook in Upstate New York among his original designs.  As far as his original courses, if someone likes that style I see no reason why they shouldn't do it.


My issue is that on his supposed Restorations the courses end up looking exactly like his original designs.



"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Nick Ribeiro

Re: Union League Torresdale Redesign - Rees Jones?
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2018, 09:49:16 PM »
My concern is that the club may have hired him for his name and expect a restoration.


Mike,


The GM of Union League is highly regarded as possibly the best GM in the country? From a financial standpoint its amazing what he has done for that club. I assume the board at the UL he deals with is part of the clubs success. Rees announced on his website he was specifically hired for redesign. I have a very hard time believing a GM of Mr McFaddens caliber and the board members of the Union League don't know the difference between a restoration and redesign.


I was contacted by someone on the selection committee looking for info on the top restoration architects. He lost in his effort to expand the search.


Obviously as they decided to go with a redesign which was the reason for my interest. Makes me think they are getting land as I don't see how they can expand holes with the current land they have.

Nick Ribeiro

Re: Union League Torresdale Redesign - Rees Jones?
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2018, 09:59:23 PM »



Nick

I was involved in a highly successful renovation/restoration project and I am not even sure how to describe what is currently going on.  I do know most all people like to hear the term "restoration" and I am sure that is what Rees and others fly with. 

That does not mean what they propose is what they do?

My club had little documentary evidence the things we had detailed photos we restored (that was easy because they were Macdonald concept holes or ones with bold features) the others we renovated. 

That said, and I am sure a cop-out, I continued to say restoration because Hanse/Bahto restored a classic look. 

Rees worked at the club in the early nineties and though I do not know the mandate what he did was architectural malpractice.  I would be hesitant to say all this but Rees also had the gall to also critique in a most ungentlemanly way the work we were doing.  Work that he had not seen in person and work that wound up showing how terrible his work was on our course.

Glad we are still listed on his site as a client. :)


Corey, The project has not started yet and Rees clearly lists the project on his website as a redesign. ~ http://www.reesjonesinc.com/renovated-courses.php


I think its safe to say after UL interviewed candidates a restoration is not what they are looking for. Rees is advertising he was hired for a redesign. I do not know why they want to redesign the course or what they are after but I don't think its fair to judge the project before its even broken ground on the architect who was hired by the club. Ultimately he is in business to do what the client wants.
I would have personally liked to see them continue the path they were on and restore the course to the old Donald Ross design but maybe their members want something different? How can you criticize the people who are hired to give them what they are asking for? Just seems like a lot of biased opinions and quick judgement when no one here has yet claimed to see a plan or even except the fact the architect was hired for a redesign.

mike_malone

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Re: Union League Torresdale Redesign - Rees Jones?
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2018, 11:01:08 PM »
My information is that one powerful person was stuck on Rees.


I don’t think the average UL member would know the difference between redesign or restore.




I speak only for myself when I say T/F is a classic that should be restored and I fear it will be altered.
AKA Mayday

Nick Ribeiro

Re: Union League Torresdale Redesign - Rees Jones?
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2018, 07:47:54 AM »
My information is that one powerful person was stuck on Rees.


I don’t think the average UL member would know the difference between redesign or restore.




I speak only for myself when I say T/F is a classic that should be restored and I fear it will be altered.


Mike,
Why would you expect any different? The club has spent 3 million dollars restoring it since they purchased it and just decided to go in a different direction, a REDESIGN to be specific. I think the club has made it obvious they are not interested in doing any further restoration.
I am not sure how this thread turned into a debate about architect, and a refusal to acknowledge the Union League wants a redesign after for what ever reason not being happy with the 3 million they spent on restoring. Hopefully a plan will be released soon. With all the backlash on here, and I am sure the criticism the board faced, the board knows most golfers who appreciate architecture are not going to be happy with their decision to do a redesign. Obviously around here, that decision will some how turn into the Architect holding plans in one hand and a gun to the boards head in the other hand.
I expect something very different then the path they were on before this. Perhaps a long, very hard course, something modern, which makes them unique to Philly Golf??? Will be interesting...

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Union League Torresdale Redesign - Rees Jones?
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2018, 07:56:16 AM »
There are plenty of mediocre courses where such a plan would be ideal. T/F can be the Union League’s best moment like Winged Foot is for the N.Y. Athletic Club.
AKA Mayday

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Union League Torresdale Redesign - Rees Jones?
« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2018, 09:23:07 AM »
A modern course unique to Philadelphia Golf?


There's a Rees Jones course within 30 miles, Lookaway, and another Hurdzan/Fry just about same distance - along with the Militia Hill Course at Philly Cricket. Not to mention other courses by Ault/Clark, Bobby Weed, Gil Hanse, Tom Fazio, and Tom Doak all within the district.


I'll be saddened if they go the route of a completely new golf course. This was the site of my first "away" match in High School and also my first Donald Ross course. I understand the business appeal to it since they can bid out all the work to various contractors but.... well.



http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Ed Brzezowski

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Re: Union League Torresdale Redesign - Rees Jones?
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2018, 09:41:07 AM »
My concern is that the club may have hired him for his name and expect a restoration.


Mike,


The GM of Union League is highly regarded as possibly the best GM in the country? From a financial standpoint its amazing what he has done for that club. I assume the board at the UL he deals with is part of the clubs success. Rees announced on his website he was specifically hired for redesign. I have a very hard time believing a GM of Mr McFaddens caliber and the board members of the Union League don't know the difference between a restoration and redesign.


A GM's bailiwick is on the business end. As long as the project remains on budget for what the membership are willing to pay, the GM will likely have very little to say about the matter one way or the other. In the end does it really matter what we think? It's his membership and his bill to pay.

Kyle I have met him, he is one smart cookie with great business and people skills. My bet is he is knee deep in what's going on there. His ideas on customer service are outstanding, he is not going to allow any pooch screwing.
We have a pool and a pond, the pond would be good for you.

corey miller

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Re: Union League Torresdale Redesign - Rees Jones?
« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2018, 10:22:37 AM »



Nick


Rather than get caught up in semantics, or mission statements, or even Rees pompous and entitled attitude why don't we measure the man by his work on courses he did not design.


Which is his best? 


I know more than a few and would politely say disappointing at best. 


What classic era course made a good decision to hire Rees rather than others?   

MCirba

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Re: Union League Torresdale Redesign - Rees Jones?
« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2018, 10:42:09 AM »
Nick,

One thing that the club may be thinking is acquiring new land.   I don't know the boundaries of the present property but I just looked at an aerial and it seems land is available going towards Academy Road in the northwest quadrant, and there may be more due north nearer the clubhouse.   

Indeed, one of the limitations of the current course is that it's on pretty tight property.   Originally, the Ross 17th and 18th holes were quite different, both being long par fours (as memory serves), but in the 1960s (I believe) Grant Avenue was expanded and the club lost some land along that side, leaving the par three and shortish par four finishing holes done by William & David Gordon.

At that time they also extended the par five 13th and created a new green.   I believe most of the rest of the course is relatively intact Donald Ross, albeit a little tightly constricted in spots.   
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 01:01:13 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Union League Torresdale Redesign - Rees Jones?
« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2018, 11:24:50 AM »
Nick,
One thing that the club may be thinking is acquiring new land.   I don't know the boundaries of the present property but I just looked at an aerial and it seems land is available going towards Academy Road in the northwest quadrant, and there may be more due north nearer the clubhouse.   

Indeed, one of the limitations of the current course is that it's on pretty tight property.   Originally, the Ross 17th and 18th holes were quite different, both being long par fours (as memory serves), but in the 1960s (I believe) Grant Avenue was expanded and the club lost some land along that side, leaving the par three and shortish par four finishing holes done by William & David Gordon.
At that time they also extended the par five 13th and created a new green.   I believe most of the rest of the course is relatively intact Donald Ross, albeit a little tightly constricted in spots.


8 and 9 were changed due to a routing quirk. I believe the original 8th green had the creek behind it and not in front and then the 9th played back away from the clubhouse, but I could have it backwards. Either way, it was clear that the 8th the water hazard behind was rather novel.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Nick Ribeiro

Re: Union League Torresdale Redesign - Rees Jones?
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2018, 11:52:30 AM »
Nick,
One thing that the club may be thinking is acquiring new land.   I don't know the boundaries of the present property but I just looked at an aerial and it seems land is available going towards Academy Road in the northwest quadrant, and there may be more due north nearer the clubhouse.   

Indeed, one of the limitations of the current course is that it's on pretty tight property.   Originally, the Ross 17th and 18th holes were quite different, both being long par fours (as memory serves), but in the 1960s (I believe) Grant Avenue was expanded and the club lost some land along that side, leaving the par three and shortish par four finishing holes done by William & David Gordon.
At that time they also extended the par five 13th and created a new green.   I believe most of the rest of the course is relatively intact Donald Ross, albeit a little tightly constricted in spots.


I looked up the property at work and found the land you are talking about is owned by the neighboring church. I assumed a long term lease or purchase deal is possible, and the announcement of Rees Jones and a Redesign had me interested. I was hoping someone here had some plans or further information confirming any of this be true. I know there is a ton of biased regarding Rees Jones and obvious judgement but figured maybe people were past all that. Personally I think a lot of his changes in the 90s were decisions of the clubs he worked for in order to accommodate high US Open scores. It's really not fair to blame the guy who actually does the work. In construction design flaws happen all the time, and like golf course architecture the builder is always blamed. The other side of the story is never told which is usually the builders side who did what his client told him to.

Nick Ribeiro

Re: Union League Torresdale Redesign - Rees Jones?
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2018, 11:57:18 AM »



Nick


Rather than get caught up in semantics, or mission statements, or even Rees pompous and entitled attitude why don't we measure the man by his work on courses he did not design.


Which is his best? 


I know more than a few and would politely say disappointing at best. 


What classic era course made a good decision to hire Rees rather than others?


Corey,
I do like some of his original designs, some are not so good (in my opinion) but its no different then any other architect? I like ALL golf, there really isn't any one course I could say I HATE. Naturally when any architect does so many designs there are good projects and bad. No designer can have all perfect projects unless those judging are sheep.... Is there any Rees project you like? Or you just naturally hate them all because that is what you been taught?

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Union League Torresdale Redesign - Rees Jones?
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2018, 12:01:22 PM »
Nick,


The difference I think you are seeking is in the method of taking design from construction.


To my knowledge, Rees Jones has never run a bulldozer on one of his projects and I highly doubt getting every hole to drain into the centerline of a hole corridor was marching orders from a client.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Nick Ribeiro

Re: Union League Torresdale Redesign - Rees Jones?
« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2018, 01:03:42 PM »
Nick,


The difference I think you are seeking is in the method of taking design from construction.


To my knowledge, Rees Jones has never run a bulldozer on one of his projects and I highly doubt getting every hole to drain into the centerline of a hole corridor was marching orders from a client.


Kyle,
I do not know whether Rees has ever ran a dozer or not? It is my understanding the client hires him with specific needs and wants and he carries them out. Are there uber wealthy clients who just say do whatever you want, I just want a championship course.. I am sure there are especially given his US Open work. Which designs are those? Are those specifically the ones you do not like? It almost seems you dislike Rees over jealousy? As if it's not fair "we think" he's the only designer ever to not run a dozer. Did any of the golden age guys run dozers? Did any of the golden age guys even over see the work? Was it possible during that era? I think not which is the big issue at Aronimink. Which design was JB and which was Ross?
I think the more valid argument or reason not to like Rees is his design is just to hard. Rees gets knocked for not giving golfers enough options. I agree on some of his designs, he forces the player to hit the shot. Forced carries are also tough for high handicappers, especially forced carries to greens. If you are a high handicapper and cant hit the ball high, a Rees design is most likely not for you, but neither is Pine Valley. As stated earlier my first experience on a Rees design was The Currituck Club and I took a 12 on a hole with poor course management and taking on more then my ability at the time allowed. After playing more of his designs, which grants many are "hard" in the same ways, I have come to appreciate a course the best players enjoy.
Have you played any of his original designs? What passionately upsets you?

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Union League Torresdale Redesign - Rees Jones?
« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2018, 01:43:41 PM »
Nick,

I don't know what a "Championship Course" is.
Nor do I recall ever giving my opinion on Rees Jones as an architect.
I've worked at two Rees Jones original courses in past phases of my career. Both are within an hour drive of Union League. Both had acute construction and design issues which lead to unsatisfactory compromises in playability for extended periods of the golf season. Compromises which do not compete well given the other options - public and private - in the Philadelphia area.
His heavy-handed approach at Bethpage Black, the only Rees Jones renovation I've played to my knowledge, is well-documented here. I prefer Bethpage Red but I am not certain if that has anything to do with the work Rees did on Black.

I don't particularly feel the need to whip anything else out on the table. Rees Jones was kind to me while I was a student in High School so I have nothing against the guy personally nor professionally.

The success of a golf course construction project is as much about the guy building the golf course as it is the about the guy designing it. When those two roles are filled by the same person, I feel the product is much more likely to succeed.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 02:26:32 PM by Kyle Harris »
http://kylewharris.com

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