[Jason Topp]

I have been reading Brad Klein's Wide Open Spaces published a few years ago.  He analyzes courses in the book not so much on their merit as tests of golf but rather on their merits in reflecting the land upon which the courses sit. 


I think it is pretty easy to identify courses that reflect their location well, but thought it would be interesting to identify courses that do the opposite.  Particularly any courses that fight their setting but you nonetheless think highly of.


In Minnesota, two courses stand out to me as fighting their location, but I cannot recommend either one - Edinburgh in Brooklyn Park and TPC Twin Cities in Blaine.  As tests of golf, both courses are fine, but I always find them jarring.  Both courses could comfortably appear in Florida with housing, artificial ponds and flat land.   


I don't know whether courses such as Whistling Straits or Arcadia Bluffs fight their location or enhance it but I find both courses similarly jarring to my senses even though both courses have their advocates.  To be fair, I have only experience Whistling Straits through television. 

[Rick Lane]

Gosh, you are describing Brooklawn in CT.   Routed back in 1910 by members and we presume George Sparling, up and down a steep hill, with parallel fairways.  Then in 1929,Tillinghast came in, and legend has it that he told the members that the Land up the street, where 36 hole Fairchild Wheeler now sits, would be much better, and he could build 36 great holes. (This after Winged Foot and Baltusrol).  But the members had just spent a bunch in 1916 on a grand clubhouse, so Tillie rerouted three holes and build 18 amazing greens.   Doak 5. Wonderful club, wonderful people, so so routing not great Land, and amazing greens complexes.  We are doing everything we can all the time, including work by Ron Forse and Jim Nagle using old aerials, to bring it back, open vistas, enlarge bunkers, etc. but we can’t change the land.....

[Joe Schackman]

Is the question about courses that overcome the land they are given?

Or courses that don't embrace the land they were originally built upon? I.e. Whistling Straits was originally as flat as could be.

[Carl Rogers]

An early Doak, Riverfront, in Suffolk, VA may fit into this category.  It is a development course with many street crossings and some long green to tee treks, behind houses etc.  It also has some attractive intersections with some small tributaries of the Nansemond River.

But to the point, many of the holes look like they could have been transplanted from expansive sea side or subtle dunes laden sites. 

I wish a lot more of you would make the trip to play it.

[Matthew Essig]

This award has to go to Chambers Bay, doesn't it?

A sea of brown and grey in the land of evergreens; however, when you consider the scar in the land it used to be as the mine, you look past the "fighting" and appreciate it for what it is.

[Garland Bayley]

This award has to go to Chambers Bay, doesn't it?

A sea of brown and grey in the land of evergreens; however, when you consider the scar in the land it used to be as the mine, you look past the "fighting" and appreciate it for what it is.

Well said.

[Charles Lund]

In the work phase of my life, I made many trips from Steilacoom to McNeil Island by ferry, in order to interview inmates of the prison or residents at a secure mental health facility.  I often observed the ugly scar of land that became Chambers Bay on the ferry rides.


The quarry wwas reminiscent of Butte, Montana, as an example of a total eyesore.   For locals, there is controversy over the pros and cons of the costs and benefits of the course that was developed, relative to what might have been a lower cost alternative by a local designer whose work in the Northwest is respected.


The Robert Trent Jones II design made use of mineral rights and materials on site, so it is compatible with what was there.


I had the experience of playing another quarry site in Riverside, California a couple of times, Oak Quarry.   I didn't see the site prior to playing the course.  But I thought the playing experience was quite good.


Charles Lund

[Wayne_Kozun]

Don't pretty much all courses in the desert fit this description?  They are often bright green in an otherwise brown and barren landscape.

[Joe Hancock]

Don't pretty much all courses in the desert fit this description?  They are often bright green in an otherwise brown and barren landscape.

No need to limit this to deserts.....although similar, we go gaga over the golf courses imposed on sand barrens....

[Sean_A]

I think Kington is a good example.  The site is fairly hilly making the golf gravity based.  The man-made features tame the gravity element of the course to some degree.  The thing is, this is good architecture.  I am not too worried about fighting against the site, it depends on how and why.  Pinehurst was an example of fighting the site but toward a negative outcome.  It didn't seem to matter...archies, pundits, raters etc...still loved the course.   

Ciao

[William_G]

what Brad is getting at is that the singularity of place is essential for architecture

I forgot the quote he uses, but something along the lines of "when you are here, you know you could be no other place"

the brilliance of taking your place and being the unicorn you were meant to be

be it Pebble or the muni down the street

life is good

 

[Bruce Katona]

Resurrecting an oldie bu goodie....the poster child for fighting everything (topo, location , routing, environmental constraints, etc.).......Country Club of The Poconos @ Big Ridge (now a muni!!)

[Jason Topp]

I think Kington is a good example.  The site is fairly hilly making the golf gravity based.  The man-made features tame the gravity element of the course to some degree.  The thing is, this is good architecture.  I am not too worried about fighting against the site, it depends on how and why.  Pinehurst was an example of fighting the site but toward a negative outcome.  It didn't seem to matter...archies, pundits, raters etc...still loved the course.   

Ciao

Kington is the exact opposite of the way I conceive of this topic.   The course as a whole reflects a very unique place unlike anywhere else I have visited and seems to reflect its surrounding.  To me, the artificial features enhance rather than detract from that feeling. 

[William_G]

It's like Brad was talking about the Dormie picture Ran has on the front page right now.

When seeing that the first time, I knew exactly where that was 

[Tim Martin]

Resurrecting an oldie bu goodie....the poster child for fighting everything (topo, location , routing, environmental constraints, etc.).......Country Club of The Poconos @ Big Ridge (now a muni!!)

Bruce-I think most mountain courses fight their locations. Soil types make drainage and earth moving an issue. Flora which usually consists of a heavy concentration of fir varieties make tree clearing difficult as well as getting enough sunlight and airflow to the playing corridors. Additionally the same trees are often used to delineate the routing with parallel holes although a couple I can think of that overcome these obstacles are Ekwanok and Glens Falls.

[Carl Rogers]

Between the site and Flynn's (what I surmise) at times heavy hand, the Cascades, IMO, for a mountain course really fits its site.  Only holes 3, 5, 7 & tee shot on 9 represent a challenging vertical fit.

[Gib_Papazian]

Spyglass (my father's favorite on earth) fights the land terribly. It is awkward and oddly routed, mostly because the clubhouse belonged at the bottom of the hill, not the top. Perhaps part of its difficulty lies in the uncomfortable routing and unusual pacing - viscerally keeping players off balance all the way around. Yet, it is surely a classic - and one I personally find fairly easy from the correct tees. The first rule is make a plan, stick to it and do not take the bait. Yet not a single hole on the golf course fits my eye - as if the whole design was forced into the dirt, without the slightest intention to leave a single element in its natural, organic state.


By contrast, Cypress might be the best routed golf course in California - and spare me the bullshit about how "weak" #18 is. St. Andrews, North Berwick, Olympic and countless others do not try to force a boffo finishing hole on the ground.   

[Kalen Braley]

Gib,


I'm shocked, I thought for sure it was Trump International 


P.S.  While I can't disagree with CPC, I would think Riv is pretty high up there being on such a tight parcel..

[Sean_A]

I think Kington is a good example.  The site is fairly hilly making the golf gravity based.  The man-made features tame the gravity element of the course to some degree.  The thing is, this is good architecture.  I am not too worried about fighting against the site, it depends on how and why.  Pinehurst was an example of fighting the site but toward a negative outcome.  It didn't seem to matter...archies, pundits, raters etc...still loved the course.   

Ciao

Kington is the exact opposite of the way I conceive of this topic.   The course as a whole reflects a very unique place unlike anywhere else I have visited and seems to reflect its surrounding.  To me, the artificial features enhance rather than detract from that feeling.

Jason

I must have got the wrong end of the stick.  I was thinking of how the features don't blend at all with the terrain...there was zero care for shaping the features to fit the terrain.

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,


I agree with you that the features do not look natural but suspect that it would be almost impossible to create so called 'natural' looking features die to the severity of much of the terrain. I do think that they sit in harmony in their surroundings though.

[Jeff Schley]

Trump National Los Angeles is parallel hole after parallel hole along the ocean.  Not alot of variety and VERY tight as those that have played it know.  I wouldn't say Merion is fighting their location, although it is built on a small amount of acreage and not alot of room for growth.

But you could always build this is you don't have the land........



http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/how-to-fit-a-7200-yard-golf-course-into-50-acres#%20

[Sean_A]

Sean,

I agree with you that the features do not look natural but suspect that it would be almost impossible to create so called 'natural' looking features die to the severity of much of the terrain. I do think that they sit in harmony in their surroundings though.

Jon

As I say, I thought Jason was asking about features not matching the terrain.  I don't dispute the features look very good or make Kington a cool course.  However, if an archie tried this on today I am not sure it would be well received.  Kington looks good partly because it is different and partly because it has had 100 years to settle.

Ciao

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