[Ira Fishman]

From Golf Magazine:


“Augusta National is St. Andrews. I told Billy that when Jones and MacKenzie were designing the course, the Old Course was their whole philosophy...Billy, look at the golf course! You have the whole world to drive it in. Same as St. Andrews. If you put it on the proper side of the fairway, you have the proper approach to the green. Same as St. Andrews. That was Jones’s whole approach to the game. Before you go changing this golf course, you better think about what Bob Jones is saying this course is. Augusta is a dead copy of St. Andrews.”


Having not played either course, I leave any commentary to you. I have heard the Jones direction to MacKenzie before, but not in such stark terms.


Ira

[Joel_Stewart]

Nicklaus addressed it tentatively in his interview on GCA.


http://golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/feature-interview-with-jack-nicklaus/


If I recall his PR person told me that as a member he needed to be diplomatic in his remarks.

[Steve Lang]

   well, TOC with some hills!

[Steve Lang]

  well, TOC with some hills, and a little more water!

[Tom_Doak]

Remember, there wasn't as much water in play when it opened.  Just a couple of streams that came into play, though it was on more holes than St. Andrews.

[Thomas Dai]

Trees?
atb

[Garland Bayley]

Trees?
atb

Few if any In play when it opened.

[V. Kmetz]

I understand he's forever been a busy fellow and the tour never visited there, but...


Was anyone else struck by the fact that Nicklaus hadn't played Pine Valley since 1961?

[BHoover]

I understand he's forever been a busy fellow and the tour never visited there, but...

Was anyone else struck by the fact that Nicklaus hadn't played Pine Valley since 1961?

Nope

[Jeff Schley]

I understand he's forever been a busy fellow and the tour never visited there, but...

Was anyone else struck by the fact that Nicklaus hadn't played Pine Valley since 1961?

Nope

Not really.  He is a Florida guy and a member at ANGC so I'm sure he spends the winter there.  Then up at Muirfield in the summer.  Love to see his year long diary schedule from any year, would be really interesting.

I remember seeing something on Greg Norman back in the 90's for his yearlong schedule for a year and it was mind boggling how much travel he was doing.  I'm not talking about the regular tour stops, but mixing in trips to winery businesses, going to Austrailia for various functions for his businesses, golf design, and ....... some small family time.... very nomadic lifestyle. He had his own jet so that helped.

[Ira Fishman]

Tiger has never played Pine Valley.


Ira

[Terry Lavin]

Tiger has never played Pine Valley.


Ira

Neither have I. But I will on my birthday this May.


Sorry to rub it in. I had to scratch last year when my parents died within days of each other but I’m very excited to play there for a couple days.

[Garland Bayley]

Tiger has never played Pine Valley.


Ira

Neither have I. But I will on my birthday this May.


Sorry to rub it in. I had to scratch last year when my parents died within days of each other but I’m very excited to play there for a couple days.

Good for you Terry. But, I can't help note that you haven't won at Augusta, so you are not really getting one up on Tiger.

[Jerry Kluger]

Can you really compare the 2 courses even beyond the obvious differences such as elevation changes, etc.  I don't see the quirkiness of TOC anywhere at ANGC and that to me is an essential element of TOC. How about the enormous greens at TOC and it doesn't seem that the green complexes play similarly.

[Jim Nugent]

Can you really compare the 2 courses even beyond the obvious differences such as elevation changes, etc.  I don't see the quirkiness of TOC anywhere at ANGC and that to me is an essential element of TOC. How about the enormous greens at TOC and it doesn't seem that the green complexes play similarly.

Some ways both courses seem to me similar, at least as Mac designed/built ANGC:

* Very little rough;
* No or few trees, which along with the first point meant few lost balls and the ability to virtually always play your shots;
* Very little earthmoving;
* Strategic shotmaking all around the course, from tee to green;
* Natural contours serve as 'hazards' and frame much of the play;
* Greens that require correct approach shots.  What Ran says about TOC, that "one could hit every every fairway and every green in  regulation and still not score better than 80," applies to ANGC too.   
* So flexible in design they work equally well for everyday play as well as major tournaments for pro's. 

IIRC Mackenzie used at least three TOC holes as templates at ANGC: Eden, Road and #18.  It's also interesting (telling?) that Nicklaus won 8 of his 18 majors at the two courses, or about 44%, while Tiger won 6 of his 14 (about 42%) at the same two courses.   

As for quirk, did you see that Tiger Woods game version several years ago of the original ANGC? Blew me away.     

[V. Kmetz]

Can you really compare the 2 courses even beyond the obvious differences such as elevation changes, etc.  I don't see the quirkiness of TOC anywhere at ANGC and that to me is an essential element of TOC. How about the enormous greens at TOC and it doesn't seem that the green complexes play similarly.

Some ways both courses seem to me similar, at least as Mac designed/built ANGC:

* Very little rough;
* No or few trees, which along with the first point meant few lost balls and the ability to virtually always play your shots;
* Very little earthmoving;
* Strategic shotmaking all around the course, from tee to green;
* Natural contours serve as 'hazards' and frame much of the play;
* Greens that require correct approach shots.  What Ran says about TOC, that "one could hit every every fairway and every green in  regulation and still not score better than 80," applies to ANGC too.   
* So flexible in design they work equally well for everyday play as well as major tournaments for pro's. 

IIRC Mackenzie used at least three TOC holes as templates at ANGC: Eden, Road and #18.  It's also interesting (telling?) that Nicklaus won 8 of his 18 majors at the two courses, or about 44%, while Tiger won 6 of his 14 (about 42%) at the same two courses.       

+ 100


...and I'd add that the original configuration/presentation had a bevy of centerline/more centerline fairway bunkers (2, 8, 11, 14, 18 - including a Principal's Nose type on 11) protecting a strategic choice on those wide fairways for a lot of players if not the Masters pros... Another factor of that original design is that the ponds and hazards of the course (11, 12, 15, 16) were really just thin "cricks" -- much more like the burns found on the classic Scottish courses, including Swilcan. Another was/is the wavy rolls and shelves for which the course is renowned.


Yet, I can't blame JK's incredulity at failing to glean this from the course we've known...85 factors have changed it 85 times seemingly, in its 85 years to the extent that all that is left is the routing...the 3rd hole...and the "general nature" of 1,5, 6 and 14...which are perhaps the only TOC bones, even close to remaining today...and that is a stretch.


Without capricious weather and winds, and inland hills instead of swelling links lands, the thought (imo) was never to build or homage St. Andrews, but to instill what Jones/McKenzie's thought were the vexing opportunities and problems of the TOC...offering a few direct mimes where possible. In the first days, one would more have believed it.


cheers  vk

[Jerry Kluger]

There is a thread with a photo tour of ANGC from the beginning and the first hole is far different from today and you can see some of the influence from TOC.

[Tom_Doak]

Was anyone else struck by the fact that Nicklaus hadn't played Pine Valley since 1961?

We had that conversation at the start of building Sebonack.  Jack asked what sort of fairway bunkers I was thinking of, and when I brought up the possibility of using sandy wastes like Pine Valley, he said yes, he'd played it on his honeymoon.  (Which was also the year I was born!)


The more time I spent with him, though, the more I understood his reluctance to go see other courses.  Just getting to all the projects he was actively building was a full time job, and getting back to some of them occasionally after they opened was another full-time job.  Plus, when he did go to see Friars Head, everyone hung on every word he said.  If Jack tried to do a study tour like I do, it would be more like a state diplomatic visit.  I can totally understand not wanting to deal with all of that!

[Jeff Schley]

Was anyone else struck by the fact that Nicklaus hadn't played Pine Valley since 1961?

We had that conversation at the start of building Sebonack.  Jack asked what sort of fairway bunkers I was thinking of, and when I brought up the possibility of using sandy wastes like Pine Valley, he said yes, he'd played it on his honeymoon.  (Which was also the year I was born!)


The more time I spent with him, though, the more I understood his reluctance to go see other courses.  Just getting to all the projects he was actively building was a full time job, and getting back to some of them occasionally after they opened was another full-time job.  Plus, when he did go to see Friars Head, everyone hung on every word he said.  If Jack tried to do a study tour like I do, it would be more like a state diplomatic visit.  I can totally understand not wanting to deal with all of that!

I am sure he is inundated with an entourage to where it becomes paralyzing.  I know a member at Bear Creek in Murrieta, Ca. which is a Nicklaus Signature course.  He came back to visit to suggest some changes and the entire membership and their families came out and mobbed him.  My friend said at one point, he politely asked the GM if they could please navigate around the course with only his team.

Of course afterwards he stayed and took photos with many and signed things, but he couldn't get his work done and be a celebrity at the same time.  Tough to juggle I'm sure.

[George Pazin]

Tiger has never played Pine Valley.


Ira

Neither have I. But I will on my birthday this May.


Sorry to rub it in. I had to scratch last year when my parents died within days of each other but I’m very excited to play there for a couple days.

Congrats, you earned it. Have a great birthday!


Jack and I have something in common - I haven't played Pine Valley since his honeymoon, either.

[V. Kmetz]

Was anyone else struck by the fact that Nicklaus hadn't played Pine Valley since 1961?

We had that conversation at the start of building Sebonack.  Jack asked what sort of fairway bunkers I was thinking of, and when I brought up the possibility of using sandy wastes like Pine Valley, he said yes, he'd played it on his honeymoon.  (Which was also the year I was born!)


The more time I spent with him, though, the more I understood his reluctance to go see other courses.  Just getting to all the projects he was actively building was a full time job, and getting back to some of them occasionally after they opened was another full-time job.  Plus, when he did go to see Friars Head, everyone hung on every word he said.  If Jack tried to do a study tour like I do, it would be more like a state diplomatic visit.  I can totally understand not wanting to deal with all of that!

TD (and others),


I totally get it  (and that his diary would likely make me ashamed I ever said I've been "busy")...even in the atmosphere of the realistic reasons for it, it still just struck me as an odd flat note in the symphony of his golf/design life


... almost like: "What's the point of being Jack Nicklaus if you can't ring up PV or CP or wherever, one June day and say, 'Me, Jackie and Steve are going to get in a late round, we'll be there at 3:30 pm...put Steve on the driver's side and Jackie will walk. Tell the cart kid we'll duke him, but we'll be pushing dark'...oh yeah three bottled waters, a diet coke and a turtle soup to go,"


cheers vk

[Tom_Doak]

VK:  it wasn't until the opening of Sebonack that it dawned on me why Mr Nicklaus always said he didn't want to be a "ceremonial golfer."  From the time he was 13, every round he played was to win or to focus on being better, and suddenly there he was, playing with the likes of me at Sebonack. 


The concept of playing for fun was altogether foreign to him, just as much as it would be for me to play in The Masters.


In the past few years, he seems to have gotten over that discomfort, which i was happy to see.  He went and played a bunch of the Hamptons courses a couple of years ago, with a group of friends.


Jack played golf for entirely different reasons than we do - indeed "played" is not really the right term.  For me, being able to get that 3:30 tee time at Cypress Point is the highlight - although sad to say, I had an easier connection to play there 20 years ago than I do today.

[V. Kmetz]

VK:  it wasn't until the opening of Sebonack that it dawned on me why Mr Nicklaus always said he didn't want to be a "ceremonial golfer."  From the time he was 13, every round he played was to win or to focus on being better, and suddenly there he was, playing with the likes of me at Sebonack. 

The concept of playing for fun was altogether foreign to him, just as much as it would be for me to play in The Masters.

In the past few years, he seems to have gotten over that discomfort, which i was happy to see.  He went and played a bunch of the Hamptons courses a couple of years ago, with a group of friends.

Jack played golf for entirely different reasons than we do - indeed "played" is not really the right term.  For me, being able to get that 3:30 tee time at Cypress Point is the highlight - although sad to say, I had an easier connection to play there 20 years ago than I do today.

Again, I understand perfectly; and its a such an ambivalent reality that an individual at the very center of game can rarely take an everyday pleasure out of it. 


Today, I watched Henry V and was taken by the scene capturing the wee hour dawn before Agincourt when Henry muses about the weight and worth of kingship as compared to the common man/private soldier, and it made me think about what you've said:


O hard Condition, twin-borne with Greatness,[/size]Subject to the breath of every fool, whose senseNo more can feel, but his own wringing.What infinite hearts-ease must Kings neglect,That private men enjoy?And what have Kings, that Privates have not too,Save Ceremony, save general Ceremony?


Back when I was a caddiemaster and had the keys to my own fine course and juice enough to play all these great places locally, I used to tell my invited friends that in these rounds, they (we) had it better than Jack Nicklaus or any of the members of these courses...he has to go through a litany of bullshit just to tee it up and the members had the misfortune of dealing with one another, their own rules, their own hassles, their own peccadilloes and desires to enjoy the place individually as we were that day.


cheers vk

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