[Sven Nilsen]

Realized we posted the same photo.


Where you have the green lines marking the start of the green you have actually marked the start of the hogsback.

[Peter Flory]

That is sort of the general idea of what I was thinking Lido's was like, except that the distance between the end of the crossing bunker and the front of the green at Lido appears to be 50 yards based on my measurements after locking it into scale using the aerials + drawings and plastacine.  The drawings appears to show the dip starting almost immediately after the bunker, so that is still about a 40 yard gully.  It also seems a little different because of that horseshoe shape to the way that it begins. 

Take another look at the topo map of the hole.  Everything that is white is turf with the bunker being black, everything else is the sandy waste. 

From the tee there was sandy waste, a bit of turf, the cross bunker, more turf (which from the topo is elevated just like the green), the swale (the collection of tightly mapped topo lines), and then the green proper.

What you are calling a forty yard gully after the bunker was a raised area (the hogsback feature), or what on a fully green-turfed version would be the front portion in front of the swale.

This is probably the best photo I have that shows all of this.  The foreshortening makes it difficult to differentiate the different pieces, but you can make out the bunker and the dark line where the swale was.

If you haven't read them, I'd recommend finding the CBM and Whigham articles on the templates they were planning to build at NGLA.  There are a ton of clues built into the descriptions of the various holes that will help you in figuring out what they were trying to do with each one. 

Thanks for posting that.  I understand what you're saying.  I was just interpreting some of the topo lines incorrectly and I'm glad that I explained it.  Your explanation makes way more sense to me and does put the hole more in line with what I expected it to be.  It's good that I didn't work on it last night with my prior misunderstanding. 

I'm looking at that Mid Ocean hole and trying to relate that to the horseshoe ring that is drawn on the diagram of the Lido hole.  If you imagine the arc of those front bunkers at Mid Ocean wrapping all the way around and connecting, that is pretty much the shape and size of the horseshoe ring on the Lido drawing (the arc that starts the hogsback).  Do you think that is a dry trench with rough or more of a sandy wasteland trench?  I'm thinking about making the depth of that be approximately the same as the depth of the Mid Ocean bunkers and the valley be about twice as deep.

I will eventually get this right.  I like the way that this sounding board process is going.  You guys are some fine scholars!

[Peter Flory]

OK, taking a mulligan on #8.  Did a lot of remeasuring.  Overlaid the Vanity Fair drawing and the plastacine with eachother and over the map of the hole in the designer.  I traced guidelines exactly over the cross bunker, the horseshoe indentation, the valley before the green, the fairway edges, and everything else that was contained.  Then did a lot of shaping to try to get different views to look like the pics (note that the angles are different with the true back tee though, compared to the tee in most pics right by the #7 green.  I also tried harder to generate the feel of the waste areas.  That is time consuming work, but will tie everything together eventually.  Also, I scrapped the big build up on the right side of the green, because I'm now assuming that it wasn't the original hole and was a futile attempt to block the sea. 

* I forgot to remove the beach grass behind the green before I took the pics.  I don't think that was there once the building went in. 

Here is the #8, v2.
From the tee, the cross bunker is barely visible the way that I have it.  From this elevated view, you can see it. 


View from just short of the cross bunker.  You can see my attempt at building in the horseshoe swale just over the trap. 


The valley


This one shows what I was trying to do with the horseshoe.  Very geometric from the air, but not the ground view. 


And finally a view from the beach after a very weak slice.  Threw a beached rowboat in for fun to see what it would look like.  Inspired by the pic of the guy hitting off the boat wreckage in the annual tourney they played there. 

[Craig Disher]

Peter,
This is superb work. What you've created captures what I think the Lido must have felt like - on a bright, sunny day.

What "big building on the right side of the green" are you referring to?

[Cal Seifert]

This is amazing.  What games will this be playable on?  I've been thinking about getting Perfect Golf.

[Kalen Braley]

Agree with the others here, this is the best simulated stuff I've ever seen.  Seems to give an actual feel for what it could have been as opposed to cartoonish landscapes...

[Peter Flory]

Peter,
This is superb work. What you've created captures what I think the Lido must have felt like - on a bright, sunny day.

What "big building on the right side of the green" are you referring to?

I was just referring to the building behind the 8th green.  What was that anyway?  I'm a little confused with the buildings/ clubhouses because it seems like new things popped up throughout the years. 

- There is the resort/ towers.  Was this ever called the clubhouse?
- Then there is what I see as the clubhouse on the vanity fair diagram, which is near the 18-hole putting course (not sure if that putting course actually existed)
- There is the building behind the 8th green. 
- then there is a building that went up behind the 9th green.
- and then there was the whole complex that went up along the beach- cabanas, boardwalk, etc. 

If someone has bothered to learn about all of that and the timing, please educate me.  I'd like to go with a certain date and only have the appropriate structures.  Please give me an excuse to delete the building behind the 8th hole!  It's not the most beautiful structure and it's blocking a great view. 

[Peter Flory]

This is amazing.  What games will this be playable on?  I've been thinking about getting Perfect Golf.

I'll PM you and give you information on the software and alternatives. 

[Jim Nugent]

Peter, my response to #8, v.2:

WOW

[Craig Disher]

Peter,
I don't have an accurate timeline for the structures on the course but I'll take a stab at it.

The building you've designed behind the old 8th was the original clubhouse, probably built near the time the course was opened. Its demise probably had nothing to do with the loss of the 8th green which was frequently damaged and finally washed out by a storm in the 20s. One article said that the green was there one day and gone the next. Another green was built that created a shorter hole (140 yards) but that one eventually was replaced by the one that's nestled behind the beach house and cabanas.

There's no evidence that the building shown on the Vanity Fair plan was built. It could have been but would have been replaced by the one behind the 8th which looks much larger. Photos show that additional building was done behind it and a tennis court added in front. That complex must have become obsolete or in the way due to the construction of the beach buildings. There is an undated photo in Bahto's book that shows the original clubhouse, what appears to be the second iteration of the 8th green and the multi-story clubhouse. That suggests that after 1928 the beach buildings were constructed, the original clubhouse razed, and the 8th was again moved. A small clubhouse was built behind the 9th green at some point, probably after the larger one behind the 8th was removed. I assume it was needed for players starting the round. It looks large enough to house locker rooms.

Added 3/19:
This photo shows the time of transition from the old to new clubhouse. Note the comment on the location of the 8th green. This location must be the 2nd iteration. It's no longer hanging on the edge of the dune.

[Tommy Naccarato]

Peter, Congratulations! You’ve dragged me out of GCA retirement to make a comment here!

I’ve done a fair amount of research on Lido; as well as had many a great conversation with Uncle George Bahto about the place; one of the most memorable while driving back from Shinny/National as well as Macdonald & Raynor’s graves with the top down in his red Caddy Escalade! (The man had passion!)

One thing to add to this:  given the water table; where they got the sand (much of it was from the lagoon, probably more then the Channel, which was overly silty) the fairways were somewhat raised with everything between the holes somewhat more at natural grade (flat). Those areas, because the routing was so tight, we’re heavily planted with sea bent sprigs, which eventually made the place famous for lost golf balls.  So famous, that no one played it despite the architecture! This coupled with early agronomist issues were like a death kneel.

On the 8th, the hole literally played out on the beach!  It didn’t last long thanks to a hurricane condition which destroyed the hole.

Everything else looks pretty cool!  Looking forward to see how you handle the 10th with its Alp’s hill.

Tommy- welcome back.  I'm glad to get your comments, especially since you've put so much thought into this. 

In one of those old articles, I did read where the author was going on about how difficult it was to find your ball in the near white sand and bents.  He suggested that a great invention would be the orange golf ball.  Tough place to caddie I can imagine. 

Regarding your commend on the natural grade and the built up fairways- that is what makes this project somewhat doable.  It would be much harder if there were more natural landforms.  For this build, I first set everything about 5 feet above the water table, which gives me a little wiggle room down if I need it- like on the 8th.  Then, I plan to built up each hole from there like I did on #1.  One other nice thing about the generally flat plot and the build up system is that I can do the holes out of order as most of the elevations don't carry over.  I'll probably hop around based on which holes I have the most information on first.  That way I will get a better feel for the place and practice that tricks that I'll apply to get the environment looking right.  Can hopefully apply those lessons to the holes with less info later. 

There are definitely going to be some challenging holes when there are more dramatic features.  I'll need some advice on the alps hole in terms of how to handle the little fairway section over the alps and bunker.  The knoll hole will be tricky too without a direct photo.  I can see it in the background in some others, but not well.

Peter,


I’ve always felt that the entire strategy of the Biarritz was the disguising distance with the front, compared to the back, creating an illusion of it being closer then it really is. (That it’s further back). The swale is strategic depending on the shot you hit and I think you’ve accurately captured it!


Honestly, you get this done, I’m going to want to play it! Lol!

[Jim Nugent]

Peter, is the tee we see in the revised #8 the back tee? 

[Bret Lawrence]

Peter,
I don't have an accurate timeline for the structures on the course but I'll take a stab at it.

The building you've designed behind the old 8th was the original clubhouse, probably built near the time the course was opened. Its demise probably had nothing to do with the loss of the 8th green which was frequently damaged and finally washed out by a storm in the 20s. One article said that the green was there one day and gone the next. Another green was built that created a shorter hole (140 yards) but that one eventually was replaced by the one that's nestled behind the beach house and cabanas.

There's no evidence that the building shown on the Vanity Fair plan was built. It could have been but would have been replaced by the one behind the 8th which looks much larger. Photos show that additional building was done behind it and a tennis court added in front. That complex must have become obsolete or in the way due to the construction of the beach buildings. There is an undated photo in Bahto's book that shows the original clubhouse, what appears to be the second iteration of the 8th green and the multi-story clubhouse. That suggests that after 1928 the beach buildings were constructed, the original clubhouse razed, and the 8th was again moved. A small clubhouse was built behind the 9th green at some point, probably after the larger one behind the 8th was removed. I assume it was needed for players starting the round. It looks large enough to house locker rooms.

Added 3/19:
This photo shows the time of transition from the old to new clubhouse. Note the comment on the location of the 8th green. This location must be the 2nd iteration. It's no longer hanging on the edge of the dune.

Craig,


I think there was a club house that preceded the two club houses shown above:  This advertisement is from March 1926 Golf Illustrated:



If you scroll back to the close-up photo of the 8th green you can see this building in the background of the photo.


Bret

[Craig Disher]

Craig,


I think there was a club house that preceded the two club houses shown above:  This advertisement is from March 1926 Golf Illustrated:



If you scroll back to the close-up photo of the 8th green you can see this building in the background of the photo.


Bret

Bret,
A great find. However, I think Bossert is taking some liberties here. I think his building could have served as club storage or a caddie shack. The larger building near the ocean was consistently referred to as the old clubhouse. It also looks the part.

[Ted Sturges]

Peter, Congratulations! You’ve dragged me out of GCA retirement to make a comment here!


I’ve done a fair amount of research on Lido; as well as had many a great conversation with Uncle George Bahto about the place; one of the most memorable while driving back from Shinny/National as well as Macdonald & Raynor’s graves with the top down in his red Caddy Escalade! (The man had passion!)


One thing to add to this:  given the water table; where they got the sand (much of it was from the lagoon, probably more then the Channel, which was overly silty) the fairways were somewhat raised with everything between the holes somewhat more at natural grade (flat). Those areas, because the routing was so tight, we’re heavily planted with sea bent sprigs, which eventually made the place famous for lost golf balls.  So famous, that no one played it despite the architecture! This coupled with early agronomist issues were like a death kneel.


On the 8th, the hole literally played out on the beach!  It didn’t last long thanks to a hurricane condition which destroyed the hole.


Everything else looks pretty cool!  Looking forward to see how you handle the 10th with its Alp’s hill.

Tommy,


My good man...so glad to see you are still showing your face around these parts.  I haven't seen you on this site since Dr. Katz was "doling out prescriptions".  And...this will probably sound like "get off my lawn" guy, but I think it is humorous that you are listed as a "Junior Member" of GCA.  Ha!  You (and me) were posting here when this site had less than ten participants.  When I came back from my first hiatus, I too was labeled with the scarlet letter of a "Junior Member".  Ran has now promoted me to a "full member".  Good grief.  I think those of us in the first 10 posters should get some sort of badge identifying us as "GCA pioneers".  And...you and I may be in the minority of those first ten to have not been kicked off.  Just sayin'...   Hope you are well my friend.


TS

[Peter Flory]

Peter, is the tee we see in the revised #8 the back tee?

Yes, I'm using the back tee from 230+ yards.  I aligned the plastacine map over the course and everything locked in with the aerials, except the 8th- because the aerial had the modified 8th that was moved inland. 


So, I traced over the plastacine into my plot to get it exactly where it should be relative to the other holes and the beach. 

[Jim Nugent]

Thanks, Peter, and is that green space on the left side, slightly more than half way up, the 7th green or the 18th green? 

[Peter Flory]

Thanks, Peter, and is that green space on the left side, slightly more than half way up, the 7th green or the 18th green?

that is the 9th tee box.  When the 8th hole got moved inland, it crowded out that tee box and they shifted it to the back edge of the 18th green.  So, I put the 9th tee in its proper spot here. 

I'm at Streamsong right now and have to head to the bar, but I'll post an update tonight on #8.  Bret L has pointed out a major error in my interpretation of the plastacine.  I was viewing it as if the light source was coming from the top of the image, but it is really coming from the bottom.  As you can imagine, that makes everything the opposite.  It doesn't matter on 1 since I was working off of actual photos.  But on #8, it makes a major difference in how I interpreted the horseshoe over the cross bunker.  It should really be a big rise/ hogsback and not an indentation as I built it.  There are a couple other changes that I'll explain later. 

But to see the issue, take the plastacine image and turn it upside down.  I think it is just human nature to assume a light source is coming from the top of the image.  Once you view it this way, it is obvious that I built the hole incorrectly. 

While I'm disappointed that some of my work was in vain, I'm excited to get a more accurate version going.  And I'm REALLY glad that Bret pointed this out to me before I got any further and started more holes.  The whole plastacine map makes so much more sense to me now that I'm seeing it correctly. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Peter,


Do you have the plasticine close-up of 8? I thought you were working from the Vanity Fair diagram alone...

[Jim Nugent]

Just for others to consider, here are what I think are the 2 best views of the hole (in addition to the one where they are mowing the green):


Similarly, this tee isn't the original tips.  It might be a forward tee or the back tee might have been lost. 

Hope I'm not nitpicking, just trying to get straight in my mind the various greens and tees in these photos, and where they lie in relation to each other. 

I agree with you, the tee in the photo above is not the original back tee.  For one thing, the guy on the left is standing on much lower-cut grass, with a very well-defined border.  Looks pretty big -- the upper right portion of the 7th green perhaps?  If so, the back tee is quite a bit further back, and closer to the ocean. 

If this is accurate, I think golfers playing the tips could see the forward tee.  It would be about half way to the 9th tee, and almost directly in line with it.

[Craig Disher]

This is definitely a tee designed for the 2nd iteration. The original 8th tee was directly off the back of the 7th green. The photo in Evangelist - taken no earlier than 1927 - shows the beach nearly up to the edge of the 7th green. The photo isn't very clear but there looks to be a tee box between the 7th and 18th greens with the green just short of where the original 8th would have been.

The photo above is so foreshortened that the clubhouse seems to be right behind the green. I think there is a lot of space between it and the green.

[Jim Nugent]

This is definitely a tee designed for the 2nd iteration.

Before that did the hole have a closer tee, along with the 234-yard tee? 

Would like to know the year this photo was taken. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Just so everyone knows what we're talking about, here's the plasticine model:

[Craig Disher]

This is definitely a tee designed for the 2nd iteration.

Before that did the hole have a closer tee, along with the 234-yard tee? 

Would like to know the year this photo was taken.

I shouldn't make definitive statements - I don't think what I said was correct. I believe the photo is actually the original hole. I also think the tee is the original. The close cut area on the left of the tee must be the back of the 7th green, I can't explain what else it could be. The photo was take no earlier than 1922.

[Jim Nugent]

Craig, if the various maps and plasticine models are accurate, the back tee of the 8th hole should not be right next to the 7th green.  That's why I wonder if there was a second, closer tee on the 8th, and that's what we might see in the photo. 

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