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archie_struthers

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Green surfaces ...Are the new strains really better?
« on: December 05, 2017, 07:19:39 AM »
 ???


So far so good for golf here this fall/early winter with lots of fun for us die hards. Great golf talk and competition with local pros who are busy all spring and summer.  Strictly from a quality of roll and pace the older greens , mostly a poa /bent hybrid are better . Noticeably better!   If I building another , not sure the A's and new strains would be my choice.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 07:35:59 AM by archie_struthers »

Randy Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green surfaces ...Are the new strains really better?
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2017, 12:41:08 PM »

Archie,
I am starting to ask myself the same question. There has been some great marketing over the last twenty five years but not sure how great the improvements have been. One thing I have clear after so many years of consulting and working with the different types of bentgrass. If the club is going to have limited resources I woud recommend penncross or pennlinks, if they still are producing pennlinks. The new varieties are agressive and produce an excellent surface if you constantly verticutt and topdress. Poa also can produce an excellent surface in the correct enviroments, if you spray for a fungus 26 times per year, 26 verticuttings followed by 26 topping with sand, wáter every night, control the seed heads and roll for the weekends.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green surfaces ...Are the new strains really better?
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2017, 12:54:34 PM »
Can the newer strains be kept more firm than the poa/bent greens of old?  I have always thought they could but I have noticed much firmer older greens over the last 5-10 years. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Green surfaces ...Are the new strains really better?
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2017, 01:02:12 PM »
Archie:


I think the answer is that the new strains are better IF you commit to spending the money and effort on super-high maintenance.  But the older grasses are plenty good without that level of maintenance, and it shows up most clearly in early spring and late fall when the maintenance levels slack off.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green surfaces ...Are the new strains really better?
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2017, 03:48:02 PM »
Archie,
Read about this one.....   interesting read and the stuff works...

http://agriculture.auburn.edu/news/au-victory-new-bentgrass-release-promises-improved-putting-greens/


"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green surfaces ...Are the new strains really better?
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2017, 06:15:12 PM »
Didn't read all the posts but some of the newer strains need less water, are more disease tolerant, hold up better under drought, ... so yes some are definitely better for the game. 

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green surfaces ...Are the new strains really better?
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2017, 07:09:29 PM »
 8)


Mark,  I was talking quality of the greens vis a vis rolling the rock. When I asked all the guys which greens rolled the best it seems they all like the older greens .


We do know that some of the newer strains are resistent to some diseases , but at the end of the day perhaps this is outweighed !

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Green surfaces ...Are the new strains really better?
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2017, 03:16:55 AM »

Archie:


I think the answer is that the new strains are better IF you commit to spending the money and effort on super-high maintenance.  But the older grasses are plenty good without that level of maintenance, and it shows up most clearly in early spring and late fall when the maintenance levels slack off.


So are the new strains value for money?

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green surfaces ...Are the new strains really better?
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2017, 08:25:38 AM »
 8)


Aha, there it Jon .


Is it fear of losing greens to heat , humidity and disease that really drives the bus. Because the costs aren't necessarily less and the surface isn't smoother or roll better. At the end of the day what would you choose to seed?

Jimmy Cavezza

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Re: Green surfaces ...Are the new strains really better?
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2017, 09:08:36 AM »
     I think a lot of times people think new is better.  With these newer strains come new problems and maintenance demands. The newer strains demand a steady dose of cultural practices and surfactants just to get h2o and oxygen through the surface.  Ironically these practices have also made older greens better! 
     [size=78%]I've seen phenomenal 100 year old greens along with Great new greens.  It comes down to knowing how to manage what you're working with.  Do your research and talk to superintendents who have managed these newer grasses in similar growing conditions.  Then base your decision on how you'll be able to manage the turf to achieve your desired playing conditions.[/size]

Don Mahaffey

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Re: Green surfaces ...Are the new strains really better?
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2017, 09:25:09 AM »
Didn't read all the posts but some of the newer strains need less water, are more disease tolerant, hold up better under drought, ... so yes some are definitely better for the game.
This is the type of quote that drives me crazy. Blanket, unsubstantiated claims.
I can tell you for certain that the new strains in warm season greens grasses are not more drought tolerant.   It’s not exactly the case, but generally, greens grasses have been bred to be smaller, finer. In many cases that means a miniature plant which also includes miniature roots.  These grasses play better with higher maint requirements.  That’s the deal in most cases.

Kelly Shumate

Re: Green surfaces ...Are the new strains really better?
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2017, 02:40:45 PM »

Archie,


To answer your question, there are plenty of new varieties that are much better for ball roll.  New genetics and breeding
have made major strides in a lot areas.  Newer plants grow more upright, tighter, and the texture of plant is much finer.
These factors all contribute to better ball roll, if proper maintenance practices are done.
One big question with any newer variety is introduced is it a bigger thatch producer or not?  We have years of data and observations with older varieties, but many questions remain with new ones. 


Just my opinion, but just as much attention needs, if not more to proper greens mix or soils when talking about ball roll.
I see mixes and sand problems more often than grass selections.  Make sure the right people are selecting the sands and test, test, and more test!  As Bill Parcell once said "if I'm cooking the meal, I want to shop for the groceries".
If you ask most superintendents they will tell you get them a good greens mix and they can get it rolling for you.








archie_struthers

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Re: Green surfaces ...Are the new strains really better?
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2017, 05:16:03 PM »
 8) ;)


kelly , no complaints about our greens !  In fact they are as good as any in the area on an annual basis. But for my money the best greens here at the shore for putting are the older ones. Wildwood CC might be the best , with Galloway and Greate Bay right behind.  We are talking big budget differences here, which gets back to the original question .  Are the new ones better , I'm not sure .


Newer greens need so much of a beating culturally , and still don't seem to roll as good to many of the players in our fairly large sampling .  Really interesting thought on Penncross et al.  , that strain might be older than me !


Thanks for all the good imput , enjoy all the comments

Kelly Shumate

Re: Green surfaces ...Are the new strains really better?
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2017, 06:29:09 PM »

Archie,


Totally understand what you are saying.  We had some old Perennial Poa on our Meadows Course, that
we had to do away with during the renovation.  Those greens putted so true and had the best ball roll.
It was so hard to do away with these surfaces ,but we lost more than 1/2 of them during the flood.


My opinion is that these old surfaces putted better, but there was no way to firm them up in our neck of the woods.
To many .25 to .50'' rain events during late spring throughout the summer. That's why my opinion is old strains are fine,
but the infrastructure better be there.


I have found that our water usage and chemical inputs have significantly dropped since switching from poa to new bent.
But as mentioned before other practices like brushing, verticutting, and grooming have had to increase.


Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green surfaces ...Are the new strains really better?
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2017, 07:00:12 PM »
I know you are talking about other grasses but we have converted two of our courses here in North Carolina to Champion Bermuda and the difference is dramatic which isn't necessarily universally a good thing.  The greens are very smooth, fast and firm but the course was not designed for greens as fast or as firm as they currently are. This week I saw the greens superintendent and he told me they were running at 11'7" which is very fast and makes hole locations critical. Another fact is the condition of the approaches which are very often soft which makes playing to a front hole location very difficult.  As an aside, we are expecting very cold overnight temperatures beginning tomorrow night and it is expected that those greens will be covered for at least a few days thereby closing the courses. 

Don Mahaffey

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Re: Green surfaces ...Are the new strains really better?
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2017, 08:20:12 PM »
Kelly,
Hope you're doing well.
Really interesting thoughts about using an older variety with a modern green's construction methods.
Seems like that never happens, because everyone seems to go all new everything...but those older varieties that had been trained over the years to provide very good surfaces were pretty bullet proof.
Be interesting to take a strain like penncross and use modern cultural techniques and construction methods. I'm guessing you could provide a surface that your members would be thrilled to play.
The really good older penncross that I remember didn't even have the benefit of growth regulators.
Deep rooted plant like that, regulated on a well drained mix, be as firm as you want it. (course you'd have to keep it a secret or everyone would think your nuts)
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 08:21:43 PM by Don Mahaffey »

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green surfaces ...Are the new strains really better?
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2017, 09:01:48 PM »
Two words—Pure Distinction.
Go Pure D or go home.

Kelly Shumate

Re: Green surfaces ...Are the new strains really better?
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2017, 09:22:47 PM »

Hello Don,


Doing well and hope the same for you!
My first superintendent job was on some pen cross greens.  Only had to spray a little extra for dollar
spot, but overall it was a great surface that was easy to manage.  I understand that many have doubts and questions about
these newer varieties both warm season and cool season.  My belief is to get the mix and drainage right then everything else
will follow.  I've seen way to many club go through expensive renovations and not get the infrastructure right. 
I hate seeing these great works not living up to what they were intended because of this. 






Kelly Shumate

Re: Green surfaces ...Are the new strains really better?
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2017, 09:38:41 PM »

Two words—Pure Distinction.
Go Pure D or go home.
  Pure D is nice choice.  I had 7 or 8 varieties on a test nursery a few years back for a project we had coming up.
Only reason I didn't pull the trigger on it was the color.  I wanted to visually see young poa plants if we had encroachment.
With the limey green color of PD I felt like the poa would just blend in if we went that way.


Jon Wiggett

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Re: Green surfaces ...Are the new strains really better?
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2017, 05:54:22 AM »

8)


Aha, there it Jon .


Is it fear of losing greens to heat , humidity and disease that really drives the bus. Because the costs aren't necessarily less and the surface isn't smoother or roll better. At the end of the day what would you choose to seed?


Archie,


I am not in the US and so would not deem to suggest what seed to use. I would suggest the choice might well be different depending on what the requirements are. As to value for money, it has little or nothing to do with expense but rather what you get for your money.


Jon

Anthony_Nysse

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Re: Green surfaces ...Are the new strains really better?
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2017, 05:58:14 AM »

Two words—Pure Distinction.
Go Pure D or go home.


While I have heard so many positive about this grass, I have heard a few negatives and struggles, too. No single grass will ever be bullet proof, unfortunately.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

BHoover

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green surfaces ...Are the new strains really better?
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2017, 08:01:50 AM »

Two words—Pure Distinction.
Go Pure D or go home.


While I have heard so many positive about this grass, I have heard a few negatives and struggles, too. No single grass will ever be bullet proof, unfortunately.


What negatives and struggles have you heard?

Randy Thompson

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Re: Green surfaces ...Are the new strains really better?
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2017, 11:35:24 AM »
 The design market has stopped for more than five years in South America but I am making a living redesigning and consulting in relation to maintenance. These are the clubs that I am presently consulting with in Chile, with different grass putting surfaces and a few observations to share.
Las Brisas de Chicuero
20 years old, not one of my designs or construction, 36 holes, near Santiago, Chile. Temperature extremes between -3 y 38 Celsius, no rain, spring, summer and fall, low humidity. Greens originally seeded to L-93 and now for 7 years 100% poa. 26 verticutting, 26 light topdressing, 2-core aerifications, 2-star aerifications and 26 fungicide applications per year. In the spring, 3 months of biweekly application of two different growth regulators combined with heavy amounts of iron sulfate to control seed-head production. Rolling twice every week. Four to five months of bi-weekly applications of revolution surfactant to keep the water off the surface and maintain a firm surface. These greens are good as any bentgrass surface that I would have never thought possible. Year around they look and roll fantastic and stemp between 10 and 11 except after the aerifications. Really expensive but maximum results.
La Serrena-18 years old-18 holes
Micro environment, temperatures year around between 6 Celsius up 24, near one of the driest areas in the planet. Two inches of rain only per year in the winter. High humidity. Grass surface in greens: Seaside II. Remained poa free for fifteen years I believe due to high salt content of the water. Currently 30 to 50 percent poa and nine holes under treatment to eliminate the poa. Two aerifications per year and three to four verticutting followed by light topdressing. For years a couple of curative fungicide applications but recently started preventative fungicide program during spring and fall for dollar spot. I would categorize, Good to excellent value for the money.
Marbella- 27 holes, 18 done by my company in 97 and nine holes about 50 or 60 years old. The climate is micro climate similar, to la Serena and similar to the Pebble Beach area in the US. Greens were originally dwarf Bermuda and the poa took over and they became 97% poa and 3% dwarf. Fourteen months ago, converted nine holes to A1 and A4 and nine additional holes converted recently and have been open for two months. The 14 months old greens already have 30% poa which we are in the last phase of elimination and expect 99% control. Excellent surfaces but will need more consistent verticutting and light topdressing or incorporating growth regulators. No fungicides. Nine holes remain in Poa, and have installed a preventative bi-weekly fungicide program for dollar. If they are one or two days late with the fungicide application, severe out breaks of dollar. Trying to get them to be more aggressive with the cultural practices and a program similar, to Las Brisa. In the next month the board will decide if the last nine be converted in March and if not, they will adapt to Las Brisas program. A1-A4 provides good value for the money if you can incorporate growth regulators into the program. Keeping them short, stressed and abused provides the best results. Baby them and they will become over aggressive and produce excessive thatch and that starts the domino effect ending in inferior surfaces.
Papudo
Near Marbella, recently converted nine greens from sand to bent, used Barracuda for the second time because of shade problems. Too early to comment but word on the street is that it`s even more aggressive and thatchy than A1 and A4.
Las Araucarias
25 years old, USGA construction, Penncross surfaces and same climate conditions as Las Brisa. 25% poa only after 25 years, no budget, one verticutting and one topping. Aerify, once or twice per year. No fungicides, two years ago saw the first fungus, Pythium, during an unusual hot summer, sprayed curative and recuperated well. Good to excellent greens year around with infrequent grooming. By far the best value for money!

archie_struthers

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Re: Green surfaces ...Are the new strains really better?
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2017, 06:12:24 PM »
 :D


Penncross sounding better and better.  Best greens I've ever seen are at Oakmont , with  lots  play , high temperatures , high humidity just amazing. Pretty sure they are a hybrid poa , never have I seen much better.


Again , if I was building a new course don't think the a's would necessarily be my first choice.

Justin VanLanduit

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Re: Green surfaces ...Are the new strains really better?
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2017, 08:54:28 PM »



In my opinion any turf can be good although it comes down to meeting expectations.  We were a club that made the change to a newer strain of grass in 2011, replacing the old bent/poa greens that lived a long life.  There were a number of factors that went into the decision to make the change but a large one was meeting member expectations of putting green surfaces in July and August when weather is at it's peak here in Chicago.  Those old greens were unable to do so due to the shallow rooted Poa and the amount of care it needed to get it through.  But what the membership came to find out too was it wasn't so much about survival in summer but in winter.  2009/2010 and 2013/2014 winters were some of the harshest we had seen in a long time.  Unfortunately in 2010 we lost turf due to it's inability to survive severe winter conditions; really pushing the regrassing train along.  In 2014/2015 numerous Chicago clubs seen major damage due to severe winter; we didn't have a single issue on our recently regrassed greens/approaches.  May I also add the first year of the regrassed greens was the summer of 2012 where Chicago experienced record lengths of heat; 47 days of 90+ degrees.  Had we still been maintaining our old bent/poa greens those summer months would have been hard and the golfers would have been frustrated.  Raised mowing heights, reduced rolling, along with other items to reduce any stress would have been implemented.  The newly grassed greens didn't bat an eye.


When members asked me why I wanted to regrass the greens so much my answer was simply; to give them what they wanted.  Consistent playing surfaces from the beginning of the season to the end.  Some one mentioned earlier that the early part of the year and the later part of the year the older turf greens putt so great.  That is very true; this is also the point in the year where turf managers can treat these surfaces more like newer turf greens as abiotic stresses aren't as evident.  Poa is one of the best putting surfaces once can ask for when it's not seeding and the environment it's living in is ideal.  Outside of that it's a crap shoot; except for some of those places that can really get the perennial Poa established vs annual. 


Granted everyone is always looking for the next best thing but that is all the reason why new things are always being created.  Nothing is ever good enough.  Penncross greens were all the rage, same with L-93; until golfers didn't feel the greens played the way they should.  They were too soft, too slow, grainy; whatever it was.  If you are to ask any turf manager; I'm sure 99% of them would agree that the newer strains of turf are better when encompassing all factors and meeting golfers expectations on a day in and day out basis.

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