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Howard Riefs

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"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Adam Warren

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2016, 08:08:34 AM »
I'm sure Hanse or whoever Keiser gets will do the job justice, but there is something to be said for losing the type of "facility" Sheep Ranch, just based on articles and posts I have read about it.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2016, 08:58:30 AM »
I've not yet made it there and this news makes it just a little less likely that I ever will.

A day at The Sheep Ranch was the differentiator for me. I've far too many "modern masterpieces" yet to see in the world. I don't need another.

That's just me though. For those who are located closer to Bandon, I'm sure this will be a wonderful addition.

MCirba

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2016, 09:46:21 AM »
I have very mixed feelings about this.

While I'd love to see what Gil Hanse could do on such a spectacular site, a big part of me loves what is there already and would hate to see it changed.   I had a very memorable afternoon at the Sheep Ranch about ten years ago which climaxed a dream golf trip along the west coast.   I was among 12 middle aged golfers teeing off from the same spot in three different directions with looks of glee on our faces like kids going on an Easter egg hunt and Christmas morning combined.

You can't improve that.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Michael Moore

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2016, 01:04:23 PM »

I've said this before and I've been to Bandon and have zero interest in seeing the Sheep Ranch.  I am delighted to hear that it has become an overpriced tourist trap and take comfort that I will never go...The thought of playing a routing off the top of the head of some amateur architect pukens me . . .

I never tire of John hitting the nail on the head.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Tim_Weiman

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2016, 02:10:53 PM »
I have very mixed feelings about this.

While I'd love to see what Gil Hanse could do on such a spectacular site, a big part of me loves what is there already and would hate to see it changed.   I had a very memorable afternoon at the Sheep Ranch about ten years ago which climaxed a dream golf trip along the west coast.   I was among 12 middle aged golfers teeing off from the same spot in three different directions with looks of glee on our faces like kids going on an Easter egg hunt and Christmas morning combined.

You can't improve that.


Mike,


I don't have mixed feelings. What is there can't be improved and shouldn't be touched.
Tim Weiman

Peter Pallotta

Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2016, 02:51:51 PM »

I've said this before and I've been to Bandon and have zero interest in seeing the Sheep Ranch.  I am delighted to hear that it has become an overpriced tourist trap and take comfort that I will never go...The thought of playing a routing off the top of the head of some amateur architect pukens me . . .

I never tire of John hitting the nail on the head.

It is interesting, isn't it?  We praise the talent of the great designers, golden age and modern, and we revere their classic and top 100 courses, and we discuss constantly the genius of the routings and use of natural features, and we complain that professionals like Fazio don't honour/restore the original architect's intentions, and we celebrate the fun and challenge and options that top-flight architects/courses provide us, and we argue that in assessing the merits of a golf course qualities like flow and pace are as important as shot-values, and we debate the use of multiple tees and decry how modern technology is making great old courses obsolete -- and then after all of that the most well travelled amateurs amongst us seem just thrilled to bits to throw it all the window in a heartbeat, as if we don't really mean a single word we said about any of the above, and instead to hit golf shots from anywhere to anyplace and from any tee we choose, thus creating/inventing/improvising a golf course all on our own that we're apparently as happy to play as we are a carefully realized golf course designed by an acknowledged master.

I've never been there, to Bandon, but it does seem very strange to me. (It's something like playing a game a chess but deciding on the spot that pawns can move backwards and rooks diagonally and that knights can be queens whenever they feel like it; sure, it's still a game of some kind, but it isn't the game of chess.) Then again, so too does choosing different sets of tees for different holes during the same round of golf, which I'm told many do here -- as if our own sense of variety and challenge and options is superior to/preferred over that of the architect who designed the course and placed the blue or white or red tees at specific places for a specific purpose. To me, believing that while at the same time being here on this site filling the electronic ether with palaver about the skills of the great architects seems wholly inconsistent. It also seems that we should all simply admit that "We want what we want when we want it" is the underlying premise/value judgement of all our critiques.

Oh, needless to say, to each his own of course. How a man (or woman) plays a golf course is his/her own business, not mine. I'm only speaking theoretically, as a matter of principle as it were....

Peter   
« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 03:52:16 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Terry Lavin

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2016, 03:53:11 PM »
Of course the "course" can be made much better. The vibe and ethos, on the other hand, would be nigh impossible to replicate, much less improve upon.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

William_G

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2016, 04:03:42 PM »
thank you Howard

yes, there is no doubt that long days with coolers of beer out there at 5-mile point will be gone, but the memories will remain

yes Mike the childhood feeling you had will only be a memory, yet your club could do a cross-country golf event with your friends with an intention to duplicate that adventurous feeling, you can also get at the Punch Bowl with cocktail in hand :)

Ally, you are obviously confused about what you think you should do in the modern golf experience category 4HS  ::)

I think about 15 years ago this was the site for the rumored "private" course at Bandon

it's great that Phil Friedmann has seen the timing as favorable to do this, the recent big fire may have influenced that

no one is too far away to get to Bandon, and this will be another jewel to enjoy

sand, wind, surf

thank you Mike Keiser
It's all about the golf!

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2016, 05:30:19 PM »


Ally, you are obviously confused about what you think you should do in the modern golf experience category 4HS  ::)


I'm not sure what this means.

But I can assure you I'm far from confused.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2016, 06:22:18 PM »

I've said this before and I've been to Bandon and have zero interest in seeing the Sheep Ranch.  I am delighted to hear that it has become an overpriced tourist trap and take comfort that I will never go...The thought of playing a routing off the top of the head of some amateur architect pukens me . . .

I never tire of John hitting the nail on the head.


Michael:


Have you been to the Sheep Ranch?


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Joel_Stewart

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2016, 07:18:51 PM »
I'm not sure of the location for this course?   Most of you are assuming it's the land north of Pacific Dunes which is owned by Mikes previous partner.


Mike Keiser has told me there is a piece of land south of the resort that he has looked at which is also called Sheep Ranch.  I believe its ocean front but lacked any significant features.

Scott Weersing

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2016, 07:26:50 PM »
I wonder how along they are in the process. They would have to get a permit to build the course.


I am not sure how golfers would get to the new course from the resort. There is already an existing road, whiskey run lane that could be incorporated into the course.


What should the name the next course?


Bandon Cliffs
Bandon Links
Sheep Ranch Links


I would guess it would open in June of 2019.






Sven Nilsen

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2016, 07:27:41 PM »
Joel:

Seeing as the article linked to in the first post has a picture of the land in question, I don't think there's any confusion as to the location of this project.

Sven

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

James Brown

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2016, 08:38:41 PM »
Is this new course decision linked with the postponement of the new par three course on the south end of the property?

William_G

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2016, 08:51:56 PM »
thanks again Howard

Sven, sorry I missed you last week...to much gawf and beverages...congrats again

Ally, you have my sympathy  ;)

Scott, I like 5 Mile Links ;), but a more appropriate name could be culled from the native American history of decades/centuries of parties or Potlatches that occurred at the base of the cliffs at 5 Mile Point, where this 18 hole course will be built. Interestingly, the scorecard that you may get if you play there, is titled BallyBandon.

thanks again

 



It's all about the golf!

Matt MacIver

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2016, 10:23:17 PM »
When I close my eyes my top five golf experiences includes enjoying the Sheep Ranch all day with my favorite people - sorry if that's wrong. Hate that I may never get the chance. But,: progress.

Tim Martin

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2016, 07:47:12 AM »
So the Doak greens are history?

Jim Franklin

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2016, 08:28:31 AM »
I'm surprised Doak wouldn't be asked to design the course.
Mr Hurricane

John Kavanaugh

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2016, 08:52:40 AM »
There has to be a tipping point somewhere when too much of a good thing becomes just another Apple store opening at the Mall of America.

Michael Moore

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2016, 09:53:11 AM »

Michael:

Have you been to the Sheep Ranch?

Sven
Of course not. John is describing a state of mind that I share, not a place. When I played with Mr. Doak last summer I used my rangefinder for eighteen holes of stroke play, and we remain cordial. That is to say, people like me need a great deal of structure - I almost skipped the magnificent Bann course at Castlerock because it was not on the itinerary.

You have been very understanding of this in the past and I can't wait for you guide me through some of the official, approved, linear routings at Bandon.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2016, 10:13:16 AM »
Michael:

Your first post didn't exactly convey the point made in your second post. 

After all, the game of golf started with some amateur architects coming up with a routing.  Nothing wrong with places that remind us of the roots (Maine as a state fits this bill).

All the best,

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2016, 10:14:32 AM »
Freedom
Adventure
Discovery
Unleashed
Unbound
Excitement
Gleeful
Childlike
Thought-provoking
Engaging
Illuminating
Laughter
Light
Love

Those are the terms that come to mind as I recall my brief few hours of JOY at the Sheep Ranch back in 2003.   

If that's not golf, it should be.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Michael Moore

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2016, 10:32:26 AM »
Panic attack

Scorecard

Agoraphobia

Pencil

"Five minutes to Wapner"
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Tom_Doak

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Re: Bandon Dunes to add Sheep Ranch for possible Hanse project
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2016, 10:35:50 AM »
I'm surprised Doak wouldn't be asked to design the course.


I'm not surprised.  Mike told me years ago when he hired us to design Old Macdonald, that whenever he finally got around to turning The Sheep Ranch into 18 holes, he would have to hire someone else for that, because I would already have done two courses at Bandon.


I don't think I would have had the heart to tear up the course myself, anyway.  It is a unique design, which is something every designer hopes to achieve but few ever attain.  We knew from the start it wouldn't be to everyone's tastes -- even Phil Friedman, our client, struggled with the idea that there was no set 18-hole routing.  But for a lot of people who played it, it held a special place in their hearts, and it's predictable that the posters here who are questioning it never went to play it for themselves.


I've known for years that the course would eventually be destroyed, because the present business model wasn't sustainable.  The sad part is that the business model we discussed at the beginning might well have worked -- a private facility with a small lodge, so that members could play the other courses in Bandon during the day, and start or end their days with a few holes over The Sheep Ranch.  But Mr. Keiser and Mr. Friedman never followed through with that concept, because Mike realized quickly that he would no longer be seen as the great champion of retail golf, if there was a cool private facility just a few minutes away that was off-limits to guests of his resort.


Years ago I asked if we could play a Renaissance Cup at The Sheep Ranch, but Mike declined.  He said if we did that, there would be more people opposed to him tearing it up eventually.  Perhaps I will see if we can play an event this winter.

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