[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Hats off to Scott Edwards of the Florida Historic Golf Trail for finding these.


One layout is 27 holes that plays as two 18-hole course, but it is not three separate nines. The other is a three-green, nine-hole design.

http://theaposition.com/anthonypioppi/golf/1962/two-fascinating-seth-raynor-designs-discovered-including-27-holes-that-play-as-36


I hope you enjoy them


Best,


Anthony Pioppi

[Jim_Kennedy]

Wow, nice find Scott.


Thanks for posting Tony.

[BCrosby]

Thanks Tony. Good stuff.


I recall that Raynor did a drawing for a second 18 at Yeamans Hall that was never built. Am I remembering that correctly? (I can't seem to pull up items on Yeamans in the Olmstead website. Is the archive not accessible remotely?)


Bob

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Bob:


You can pull up projects and then a list of what is in the file but you have to request drawings, etc., to be scanned and sent. If the drawings are too big, you have to visit Brookline, where they all are kept.


Yeamans, I know, has some Raynor drawings. Have you checked with the club.


Best,


Anthony

[BCrosby]

Tony -


I will contact the club. I am pretty sure that a copy of the Raynor drawing for 36 holes hangs in the locker room. Or at least it did ten or so years ago.


Bob

[Sven Nilsen]

Bob:


Is this the plan you were talking about for Yeaman's (sorry for the lack of clarity, its the only copy I have)?


Sven

[BCrosby]

Thanks Sven. That's it. At the time of my visit I recall it hung in a short hallway, sort of a mud room, near the front door to the locker room. I hope it has been relocated somewhere less exposed. I am often surprised by older clubs that don't understand the value of their historical items.


Bob

[Sven Nilsen]

Bob:


A 36-Hole Raynor plan begs the question, how do you spread out the templates?  Is there a Redan and a Nader?  Two Biarritzs, or do you just use the same green and play it from different sides? 


Sven

[BCrosby]

Sven -

Exactly. A 36 hole plan highlights the inherently repetitious nature of the template model.

To minimize that on the second 18 you could note on the scorecard that that if you liked the Redan on the other 18, you will absolutely love the one on this 18!!   In short, plagiarize advertising pitches for movie sequels. 

Bob

[Bill Brightly]

Sven,

Good question. I know Raynor routed courses on 3 different sections of Fishers Island. Has anyone ever seen those routings? I seem to recall this mentioned in their anniversary book but I'm not sure if the routings were included.

Donnie?

[Sven Nilsen]

Bill:


My questions were partially tongue in cheek, but the question is thought provoking.


What would CBM/Raynor do if asked to build 36 holes on the same property.  The closest we probably can get to figuring it out is looking at what they did at Sleepy Hollow.


Bob's comment about the repetitious nature of the Template model got me thinking.  The whole idea of the templates is to provide a round of golf that isn't repetitious, in that you are continually being asked to hit different kind of shots.  They even, in places, ask you to choose between types of shots on the same hole, perhaps based on your own game or perhaps based on the day's weather.  I suspect that two side by side courses from these architects would be just different enough to make you think even a bit more about each shot.  Would you play Yale's Biarritz differently from the one at Piping Rock?  Or Yale's Redan compared to the one at Shoreacres?  How would you play a downwind Cape Hole, as opposed to one straight into the breeze?


And there are too many examples of these guys taking advantage of a natural feature in the most optimal way to think that they wouldn't have gotten the absolute most out of the property.


Sven

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Repetitious nature of the Template model? They would adapt to the site so they weren't repetitious. It can be argued, for instance, that Fishers Island has two Road Holes, the 8th and the 18th, and I would not call them repetitious. Also, since the majority of the Raynor-Maconald-Banks holes designs are not templates, there would be no repetition.



Bill, as far as Fishers supposed 54 holes, I have a copy of plans that show a second 18, but it is only line drawings with no definitive characteristics shown. Banks updated the plans shortly after Raynor died. I have heard that there were supposed to be 54 holes but I have not seen any proof. The last update came after the existing course opened.


I would not be surprised if Raynor routed three courses and let the owners of the Fishers Island project decide which one they wanted.

[RJ_Daley]

It seems to me that if MacRaynorBanks were to design 36 or more holes on one property from the begining, they would have mixed and matched the iconic greesites more and fitted the corridors to the uniqueness of the changing topography of the site.  If it were a 36 hole complex on near dead level plain like CC of Charleston, they would have simply mixed and matched the template greensites and created varied fw corridor differences and fw bunkering variations, but along the same template themes. 

From my limited observations of about 6 Rayor courses, it is clear that he used greens with Redan characteristics on par 4s (like #1 at Blue Mound CC).   One could use a double plateau on a par 3 and hogsback fws on segments of par 5s, etc.  Yet, we'd know it when we see it.

[BCrosby]

Interesting. I didn't mean the repetition thing tongue in cheek. Note first we are talking about two kinds of variety. There is the variety of template holes within a course and the variety of template holes across different courses. The iconic templates are different enough that they provide variety within a given course. I assume we are talking about the latter kind of variety, that is, the variety (or lack thereof) you find in the same template holes on different courses.


So sure, there are differences between the Redans at NGLA, Yale and Yeamans.  But the main reason Raynor and others used templates was not for their variety, but rather the opposite. He built template holes because they reliably called for certain kinds of shots. Raynor et al. thought that was ok because those "certain kinds of shots" are among the most interesting the in the game. And I agree with that. The shots template holes call for are indeed interesting and fun. 


But that doesn't absolve them from the charge of being repetitious from course to course. I think that has to be true, almost by definition. If such holes weren't repetitious (at least to some degree), if they didn't require (more or less) the kind of shot choices we associate with a certain template, the hole is not a template hole. If a hole doesn't have the playing characteristics we normally expect of a Redan, it's not a Redan. It's something else. Right? 


Which suggests to me that if Raynor is laying out 36 holes at Yeamans Hall he's got a challenge on his hands. Assuming he wants to build two Redans, neither can stray very far off the template reservation. If one (or both) does, it ceases to be Redan. Templates are templates because they play like templates.


I'm not a fan of template holes generally, not because they aren't good holes. They can be and often are very good holes. I'm not a fan because they suggest to me an architect taking short cuts. I wonder if an opportunity has been lost. Which is also why I like it so much when MacK (at ANGC) and Doak (at OM) mess with templates. They designed holes that seem to be satires of templates. They are wonderfully imaginative holes.


This thread brings to mind Pete Dye's facetious, one word answer to Ran when he was asked what he liked most about Raynor courses. Pete's answer - "variety". I assume Pete was smiling broadly. And Ran moved on to the next question.


I'd love to hear others thoughts.


Bob       

[Jim Nugent]

It's often said that Mackenzie mostly followed Raynor's routing at CPC.  Suppose he did.  Where would Raynor have placed the templates?  Sometimes I hear 16 as the Biarritz.  Seems like overkill to me, and besides, as I understand it, Raynor wanted to make that a par 4.

Given the current routing, any thoughts on where the templates might work, and how the course would have turned out?   

[Matt Albanese]

There are also drawings of a second course at Yale. http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,61040.5/ . There do appear to be some template holes in that drawing as well. It is an interesting question.

[Sven Nilsen]

Bob:

I agree with everything you wrote, with the caveat that the idea that if you've played one Raynor you've played them all is a fallacy.  That is what struck me about the use of the word repititious.

Repetition to me is being asked to hit the same high cut into every par 4, or pulling the same club on all of the par 3's. 

CBM's genius was in the variety of shots demanded during one round, which is why those templates work.

Sven

[Bret Lawrence]

Tony:


Thanks for posting this.  The layout of Coral Keys is very cool! Thanks to Scott Edwards for sharing this.


Sven:


MacDonald and Raynor built 36 holes at The Greenbrier.  I have never seen a layout of the second course.  Do you know if they duplicated the Par 3's there?


The great thing about this map Tony posted to his story is the detail of the drawing.  This 27 hole Coral Keys course had 7-Par 3's.  Here are some close-ups of the Par 3 holes.


The 2nd and 4th hole were planned to play on both the South and the East courses:




The 13th hole pictured above(with 4), was planned as part of the East course.  The 12th and 17th, pictured below were planned for the back nine of the South course:


The 6th and 10th, pictured below were the remaining Par 3's on the East course.






Bret

[Sven Nilsen]

Bret:


Good point on the Greenbrier, although the two courses weren't built simultaneously.  From what I've seen, I'm pretty sure they duplicated at least a few of the holes on their second course there.


Sven

[Nigel Islam]

Bret:


Good point on the Greenbrier, although the two courses weren't built simultaneously.  From what I've seen, I'm pretty sure they duplicated at least a few of the holes on their second course there.


Sven

Does anyone have a routing map of The Greenbrier course before it was renovated by Nicklaus in 1977? I would be curious to see the way the holes were, because some of the current names do not make sense.

[Jim_Kennedy]

From the "Compilation" thread on GCA




From the Greenbrier write up on GCA

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