[Chris DeToro]

Hyannisport Club out on the Cape is a possible 6-7 that didn't make it to the book.

[MCirba]

I take issue with the suggestion of Aiken GC as a potential 7.  This is a GCA darling due to its history, extreme value (mid-$20s), and increased playability...I played 36 holes there during the Dixie Cup a few years back so I know it pretty well.  The fact that it's a great value and has some good holes doesn't change the fact that it's half the course that Palmetto is!  I'd call it a 5 at best, or whatever # is reserved for courses that are too short for modern tourney golf....4?

Hi Brad,

I'm not sure what number I'd give Aiken but it's definitely worth seeing for the greens alone.   If pressed I'd say 6.

On the other hand, I'd say 99% of courses are too short for modern tourney golf as defined by the present PGA Tour combination of technology and athleticism. 

I used to ask the hypothetical question of how long the 18th at Merion would need to be today to require Ben Hogan, a fairly long driver of his time, to hit Driver, 1-iron into that hole?  This past weekend I played it downwind and hit driver, 7-iron to the back of the green and I'm 58 years old.   

[Brad Tufts]

Hi Mike,

Been working out?! 

I sort of think of "too short for tourney golf" as "too short for high-level amateur events," but that's only a personal definition.

[MCirba]

Hi Mike,

Been working out?! 

I sort of think of "too short for tourney golf" as "too short for high-level amateur events," but that's only a personal definition.

Brad,

A little. 

Seriously, it's been my observation that those in high-level amateur events, particularly collegians and Walker Cup level players actually hit the ball further on average than the tour pros.

[JBovay]

JBovay:  Thanks for this, I'm always interested to see where other people recommend that I go, on the rare occasion that I have time.  In fact, just three weeks ago, I managed to go play Cleeve Cloud and Minchinhampton Old, and also make a quick walk around Blackwell.


[Also, one correction to your list:  Huntercombe is reviewed in Volume 1.]


You could wind up with a long list for Volume 3 ... even though we reviewed 660+ courses, of which probably 500 were worthy, that must leave 5,000+ courses in this region that we didn't see!  I'm sure there are a ton of them that are worth a game.  But if there are any that really deserve a 6 or a 7, by all means, we'd love to hear about them.

Tom,


I'm glad you appreciate this list.


I'm really looking forward to receiving Volume 3. As it looks like I'll be settling down in Connecticut for many years, and I have only played a handful of courses in New England, it will be the most often-used of all the volumes. And, as a personal bonus, my wife will surely be happy to find out why I haven't been able to stop talking about the Course at Yale for the last few years.


Keep the recommendations coming, guys! I will update the master lists at some point, but my free time is tight this fall.

[Tom_Doak]

  I'd call it a 5 at best, or whatever # is reserved for courses that are too short for modern tourney golf....4?

I kind of wish I'd taken that phrase out of the Doak Scale for this edition, though changing the definitions would have incited a lot of loose talk at the time.


When I first wrote the book, I used that suggestion of a "4" as a loophole to keep the Merion Wests of the world in the place where all the Serious People had assigned to them.  The idea was that the course was really better than that, but I wasn't allowed to promote it over all the properly vetted candidates. 


But I really don't subscribe to that view at all anymore, and I've rated some very-short courses much higher than a 4 in these latest volumes.  Indeed, I have been lobbying to find a client who will let me build a 6200-yard course to show how well received it would be.  You would not believe the resistance one gets for this sacrilege!

[Sean_A]

I think South Bend could be a 6.  It's no better or worse than Warren, in my opinion.

Of those consolidated above that I have visited, I agree with Lavallee that Barona is probably the most obvious candidate for a 7.  Sedgefield and Hope Valley could be 6s on a good day (I like HV more), but more likely 5s.  Old North State is nice but an uneventful modern Fazio, no more than a 5.

Kukui'ula has its spots but also probably a 5 in the grand scheme...there are certainly a few holes with strategy, and the land is pretty darn good.  I have not played Puakea, but a couple of my family members have...I'm told it's in the 4-5 range, not as good as Kukui'ula.  A few great jungle holes are offset by a bunch of open modern-mounded holes going back and forth behind a COSTCO...a good value to get away from the pricey resort courses on Kauai, but not great golf.

I take issue with the suggestion of Aiken GC as a potential 7.  This is a GCA darling due to its history, extreme value (mid-$20s), and increased playability...I played 36 holes there during the Dixie Cup a few years back so I know it pretty well.  The fact that it's a great value and has some good holes doesn't change the fact that it's half the course that Palmetto is!  I'd call it a 5 at best, or whatever # is reserved for courses that are too short for modern tourney golf....4?

Edit...forgot I had played Deltona and Victoria Hills too...I'd say Deltona straddles that 5/6 line, while VH is definitely a 4 or 5

Brad

While not far off your number, I do think Aiken warrants a possible 6.  Its a very cleverly routed course which incorporates housing quite comfortably, has some good greens and the odd unusual hole or two.  Same except even moreso for Hope Valley.  Its difficult to pull off the housing estate gig and HV does it extremely well.  I would return to either course, but would really like to see Aiken again. HV is clearly the more difficult course and probaby better, but the interest of design lies with Aiken here.

I take your point though, both lean closer to 5 than 7.

Tom

It is heartening to know that as you age length becomes less of a defining character for quality. I recall you made a length comment about Harborne which I found very odd given that so many of the courses you profiled are not long.

I add Welshpool to the list.  I think its a solid 6...regardless, Tom, you would love it.

Ciao 

[PCCraig]

Obviously I am biased but I think Town & Country Club in St. Paul is a very good golf course that was not included in Vol. 3. It's a quirky, old fashioned kind of golf course that isn't everyone's cup of tea but I think it fits the "what we like" description in the front of the book pretty well. If nothing else its a place where you will see features you wont see elsewhere.


But clearly Darius didn't think it was better than a 6 so perhaps I am greatly overrating it.

[Brad Tufts]

Fun stuff here guys...

Pat...I lump Tedesco in there too...I just got my copy of Vol. 3 and haven't opened it, but my brother tells me it's not there.  It's one of the many good local privates in old-money golf cities that lies somewhere between 4 and 6 (probably a good 5...I have it roughly #25 in Mass.)...some great holes, some blah holes.  We have a great history involving some cool figures...Gold Coasters who summered in Marblehead and Swampscott that founded the club, Skip Wogan, perhaps Ross (who at least consulted briefly), Wayne Stiles, Stephen Kay, and now Ron Forse going forward.  We also have been prominent in MGA participation and governance over the years, so we get to host the Mass. Open or Am every 15 years or so.  I'm sure T&C is similar!

Tom...the "too short for modern tourney golf" is a tough one, as I've struggled even to express my personal definition above.  I think of high-level amateur golf as something like a state amateur, and in Massachusetts, this is generally contested on a course between 6400-6800 yards.  We tend to use the supposedly too short courses (Dedham, Franklin Park, Bass Rocks, etc.) for qualifiers, but not the tourney proper.

Sean...I'm curious if Aiken GC adapted to the housing, or the housing adapted to it...it does go back to Aiken's early days, correct?  On Hope Valley, I've always thought it interesting to see a housing-development course 1920-style.  That was a surprise the first time I played it...one of the few NC Ross courses I have played that really has the New England feel to it.

[Sean_A]

Brad

I suspect much of the land for the houses was once hotel property, but that is just a guess. 

Come to think of it, Hope Valley doesn't feel very NC...you are right.

Ciao

[K Rafkin]

One of the better can think of omitted from this most recent volume is Bandon Crossings.  There are a couple of awkward parts of the course, but its really quite good.  Dan Hixson does some good work. 


I get that many might not want to stray from the resort, which completely makes sense, but if you're visiting for more than just a couple of days its well worth the visit.


Doak scale 6

[Carl Rogers]

  I'd call it a 5 at best, or whatever # is reserved for courses that are too short for modern tourney golf....4?

............  Indeed, I have been lobbying to find a client who will let me build a 6200-yard course to show how well received it would be.  You would not believe the resistance one gets for this sacrilege!

Could it be a par 66 course?  Not short for that par.
Played Williamsburg Golf Club last weekend, John Foy, I think.  Too may similar and over repetitious greens & bunkers, but well conditioned.  Would not know how it could compare to Riverfront as it obviously gets about 25% of the play.

[Peter Pallotta]

My copy arrived early this morning. Reading the profiles, especially for the few courses I've played, I was struck by how many different ways there are to achieve/land on a "5-6".  With a bit of reading between the lines, some courses seem to promise more than that, but then ease their way back and settle on a 5/6; while others seem to make the very most of what they are/could be and manage to stretch and grab hold of that 5/6. Yes, in the end both kinds of 5-6s are 5-6s, and yet that subtle (and maybe mostly unconscious) interplay of expectations and fulfillments seems to make one kind of 5/6 quite different than another. As well, I'm struck by the dramatic jump between the 5-6 course and the "7"; to this inexperienced observer, it is the scale's most significant line of demarcation. It's also good to be reminded of the sheer variety/possibilities that the art-craft of gca offers.

Peter

[MCirba]

Probably the biggest pleasant surprise of my last few years is Berkshire Country Club in Reading, PA.

It's a wonderful Willie Park Jr. design that blew me away and is a Doak Scale 6 or even 7 to me.   Admittedly, I love quirk, but this place is super cool.

It held up to a second visit with friends who were similarly impressed and who may weigh in.

[BCowan]

Probably the biggest pleasant surprise of my last few years is Berkshire Country Club in Reading, PA.

It's a wonderful Willie Park Jr. design that blew me away and is a Doak Scale 6 or even 7 to me.   Admittedly, I love quirk, but this place is super cool.

It held up to a second visit with friends who were similarly impressed and who may weigh in.

I was blown away by the Gold Standards photo tour of Berkshire, I wanted to jump in my car and drive there the next day. 

[Joe Bausch]

I echo the comments on Berkshire.

Photo album:

http://www.myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/Berkshire/index.html

[Kyle Harris]

I take issue with the suggestion of Aiken GC as a potential 7.  This is a GCA darling due to its history, extreme value (mid-$20s), and increased playability...I played 36 holes there during the Dixie Cup a few years back so I know it pretty well.  The fact that it's a great value and has some good holes doesn't change the fact that it's half the course that Palmetto is!  I'd call it a 5 at best, or whatever # is reserved for courses that are too short for modern tourney golf....4?

Hi Brad,

I'm not sure what number I'd give Aiken but it's definitely worth seeing for the greens alone.   If pressed I'd say 6.

On the other hand, I'd say 99% of courses are too short for modern tourney golf as defined by the present PGA Tour combination of technology and athleticism. 

I used to ask the hypothetical question of how long the 18th at Merion would need to be today to require Ben Hogan, a fairly long driver of his time, to hit Driver, 1-iron into that hole?  This past weekend I played it downwind and hit driver, 7-iron to the back of the green and I'm 58 years old.

I feel bad that I missed your 18 month recovery from your head-on collision with a Greyhound bus. I hope Jen is okay! Seriously, I never buy into the Hogan 1-iron on 18 at Merion comparison for that very reason.

Also, to the thread...

Schuylkill Country Club.

[Chris_Hufnagel]

Tom,


A question for you, not sure if this has been asked before here or not, so apologies in advance if this ground has already been covered...


For the Doak Scale - are the gaps between numbers evenly spaced or are some gaps wider in your mind?


For example, is the gap between a 9 and 10, similar to a 0 and 1?  And if the answer is no - do the gaps widen as you get closer to both ends of scale?


I realize there's a lot of subjectivity involved, but just curious how you think about this and what are the big thresholds to cross along the way - say from a 6 to a 7, or a 4 to a 3...


Thanks in advance...

[MCirba]

Swope Park.  If Mark Twain is a 5 and it is, Swope Park is  6.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Aiken GC was mentioned in this thread.  Its definitely no more than a 5 or a 6 and DEFINITELY worth playing. The greens are absolutely wild. The place is like a time machine.  Just the 1/17 double green is worth the price of admission.

[jeffwarne]

Aiken GC was mentioned in this thread.  Its definitely no more than a 5 or a 6 and DEFINITELY worth playing. The greens are absolutely wild. The place is like a time machine.  Just the 1/17 double green is worth the price of admission.

Midland Valley. just down the road.Ellis Maples course with very, very tilty lay of the land greens. Massive slope and have not succumbed to the temptation of flattening the areas where pins are located due no doubt to a lack of finances.
Have to have the ability to work the ball both ways both off the tees(yet plenty fo room to play) and into canted/sloped greens.
Very beat up conditionwise but well conditioned bermuda greens.
Play it every year during Masters and played it 4 times this week due to Palmetto being a bit too popular during Masters.


While Aiken GC is good, it has many, many similar short par 4's.
All really good holes by themselves, but not so great collectively.
I'm a big fan though

[Ronald Montesano]

+1 on this assessment.

One of the better can think of omitted from this most recent volume is Bandon Crossings.  There are a couple of awkward parts of the course, but its really quite good.  Dan Hixson does some good work. 


I get that many might not want to stray from the resort, which completely makes sense, but if you're visiting for more than just a couple of days its well worth the visit.


Doak scale 6

[Sean_A]

For what its worth...I 2nd/3rd/4th Bearwood and Hope Valley.  Though neither is a course which I believe would move Tom's needle.  Its more a matter of full inclusion as much as anything. I am not sure Tom is seeking out these type of courses these days. 

I guess I could say the same thing for Blackwell, Prestbury, Castletown, The Grove and Cumberwell Park Orange.  Though I do think Tom might think rather highly of Blackwell even if the score was tempered.  Prestbury, I am not sure because he didn't seem pleased with Harborne or Edgbaston and they aren't that different in quality....just very good Colt 2nd tier courses. Castletown...bit of a crapshoot....no guesses.

Welshpool on the other hand is no "better" than the above courses, but it is much more interesting in no small part because of the how the design tackles the wild terrain.   I do think that like Cleeve Cloud and Kington, Tom would get this course.

Ciao 

[Tom_Doak]

Sean:  I did a late-afternoon stop through Blackwell when I was over last October, to break up the drive from Cleeve Cloud to Notts. My old friend Woody Millen was an overseas member there.  I enjoyed seeing the course but the clubhouse environs were certainly the highlight.


I added ten courses in Korea and three in China the past two weeks ... and may even have drummed up a job or two!

[Thomas Dai]

There's a section at the rear of the GB&I CG entitled "The courses we look forward to seeing someday".
In addition to those mentioned in the section I would add -
Royal Jersey & La Moye (both are on the same small island so see one see both)
Welshpool - if you like courses such as Perranporth/Kington/Cleeve/Minch' Old/ Painswick you'll like James Braids hilltop at Welshpool
Sandwell Park - a very nice imo under-appreciated Harry Colt.
And 3 'other' courses at venues principally known for their 'first' course -
The Annesley at Royal County Down - short-18 but great for those who like the ground game and small greens
The Bann at Castlerock - lovely short 9. Angles and quirk.
St Olaf at Cruden Bay - just a lovely flowing 9
atb

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