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John Kirk

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What Is The Greatest Unwalkable Golf Course?
« on: October 03, 2015, 10:05:28 PM »
The purpose of this question is to highlight the importance of a course being a reasonable, enjoyable walk through the park.

Every golf course can be walked in theory, so an arbitrary line must be drawn between "walkable" and "unwalkable".  Once again, I'll use Stone Eagle Golf Club as an example.  I typically walk it once a year to prove I can do it.  It has relatively short green to tee walks, but the terrain is steep, and requires a few walks through deep ravines.  If I walk and play with purpose, it takes me three hours to play the course by myself.  That gives me time to think about every shot, measure distances, and pull the flag out for putts.  For the sake of argument, we will define Stone Eagle "unwalkable", as is any course that takes more than three hours to play alone (quickly).

Another good yardstick is The Walking Golfers Society "Walkability Ratings" chart.  Anything that is rated RED is unwalkable.  Rob Rigg's ratings aren't refined at this point, but they do a good job of identifying the unwalkable courses.  Help him out if you have opinions.

http://thewalkinggolfer.com/twg_walkability_ratings

I shot my career lowest round at Stone Eagle on a day I walked the course with Peter Ferlicca six or eight years ago.  It's a fantastic feeling to play golf when you're really sweating to get around the course. There's little or no tension to deal with, but you have to hit shots while breathing hard, a unique challenge.  Last year, during my yearly walk, I also shot my best or second best round of the year.

What do you think is the greatest unwalkable golf course?  For many players the question is moot, as they regularly play the game in golf carts.  For a cart player, the transitions between holes, and the severity of the terrain, is less relevant to one's evaluation of enjoyment.  However, I would still argue that no unwalkable course exists that earns a consensus rating of greater than 7 on the typical Doak scale.

Doak 7 - "An excellent course, worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles.  You can expect to find soundly designed, interesting holes, good course conditioning and a pretty setting, if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf."

Doak 8 - "One of the very best courses in its region (although there are more 8s in some places and none in others), and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but these will clearly be spelled out, and it will make up for them with something really special in addition to the generally excellent layout."

In my opinion, all unwalkable designs should be downgraded at least one category.  For the best of these designs, the limit so far is 7.  If you disagree, please cite an unwalkable course where the quality of golf holes and general ambience deserve a rating higher than 7.  Ultimately, the limiting factor may actually be quality of golf shots limited by severe terrain, rather than the fact the course is too hard to reasonably walk.
 

Jon Cavalier

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Re: What Is The Greatest Unwalkable Golf Course?
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2015, 10:15:39 PM »
For me, the first one that comes to mind is Ballyhack - I'm a big fan of the course and I think it straddles the line between a Doak 7 and a Doak 8. Call it a Doak 7.5.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2015, 10:17:40 PM by Jon Cavalier »
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John Kirk

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Re: What Is The Greatest Unwalkable Golf Course?
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2015, 10:29:04 PM »
Thanks, Jon.  I visited and toured Ballyhack while it was under construction, but I never came back to play it.  An imaginative and complex design by Lester George.   

Jon Cavalier

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Re: What Is The Greatest Unwalkable Golf Course?
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2015, 10:33:28 PM »
John:

Having had my memory refreshed by the Michigan Rankings thread, another candidate for me would be Greywalls in northern Michigan. I loved that place, and I can't imagine anyone being crazy enough to walk that course.

I'm very much a dedicated walker, but one thing that Ballyhack and Greywalls both prove is that without carts, we'd be missing out on some damn fine courses.
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Mark Pavy

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Re: What Is The Greatest Unwalkable Golf Course?
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2015, 10:43:43 PM »
Probably not the greatest, but certainly the most unwalkable......1,365 km!

http://www.kalgoorlie.com/nullarborlinks/

Wade Whitehead

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Re: What Is The Greatest Unwalkable Golf Course?
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2015, 10:56:19 PM »
Just don't tell Tommy Williamsen, my kids, or the other members who walk regularly that Ballyhack is unwalkable.

WW

Jon Cavalier

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Re: What Is The Greatest Unwalkable Golf Course?
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2015, 11:33:01 PM »
Just don't tell Tommy Williamsen, my kids, or the other members who walk regularly that Ballyhack is unwalkable.

WW

Wade:
I've also walked Ballyhack, and it is doable. But I think you'd agree that the significant majority of people who play there don't (and frankly, probably can't) walk those hills.

Anyway, my intent was more to point out the merits of the golf course than ding it for its walking difficulty. I think it's an outstanding course, whether on foot or in a cart. I raved about the place from the first time I played it: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59991.0.html
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Joel_Stewart

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Re: What Is The Greatest Unwalkable Golf Course?
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2015, 12:00:50 AM »
Isn't Stone Eagle unwalkable?

Pete Lavallee

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Re: What Is The Greatest Unwalkable Golf Course?
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2015, 12:07:35 AM »
Although it's not great course we decided to walk The Eisenhower course at Industry Hills back in the 80's. This Doak 4 was literally built on a mountain of trash. It was in the spring and we were not really expecting what turned out to be the hottest day of the year. We made it through the front nine only to find out that the funicular designed to ferry carts up the steep hill between nines was out of order! We had to climb the goat trail literally a 60 degree ascent to the halfway house. That was a climb I'll never forget. We spent the next half hour recovering in the halfway house, which incidentally was the railway car which carried Churchhills coffin to its final resting place.


Surely a day I'll never forget. As you may remember we were going to walk Stone Eagle the day we played together but your knee was not cooperating  that day. Hopefully we'll get the chance to try it again some day!

I wish we had attempted to walk Sagebrush during the King's Putter, that would be my nomination for greatest unwalkable.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 12:18:11 AM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

John Kirk

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Re: What Is The Greatest Unwalkable Golf Course?
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2015, 12:36:34 AM »
Isn't Stone Eagle unwalkable?

I was trying to say Stone Eagle is an example of an unwalkable course.  Although I walk it once a year, it is very difficult, and I am typically very tired afterwards.

I was also trying to say that Stone Eagle satisfies the requirement of a Doak 7 golf course, though there is significant disagreement as its merits.  I'm biased, but I think it's a contender for "greatest unwalkable golf course."

Jason Way

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Re: What Is The Greatest Unwalkable Golf Course?
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2015, 12:37:42 AM »
Just to be clear John, are you talking unwalkable while carrying your own bag, or unwalkable period (even with a trolley or caddie)?


The best course that I have played recently that was borderline unwalkable was Black Forest.  The property is expansive and hilly, with a few legit hikes between holes.  What put it over the top for me though was the mile+ hike back to my car after the 18th hole. 
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Tim_Weiman

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Re: What Is The Greatest Unwalkable Golf Course?
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2015, 12:39:43 AM »
Although it's not great course we decided to walk The Eisenhower course at Industry Hills back in the 80's. This Doak 4 was literally built on a mountain of trash. It was in the spring and we were not really expecting what turned out to be the hottest day of the year. We made it through the front nine only to find out that the funicular designed to ferry carts up the steep hill between nines was out of order! We had to climb the goat trail literally a 60 degree ascent to the halfway house. That was a climb I'll never forget. We spent the next half hour recovering in the halfway house, which incidentally was the railway car which carried Churchhills coffin to its final resting place.


Surely a day I'll never forget. As you may remember we were going to walk Stone Eagle the day we played together but your knee was not cooperating  that day. Hopefully we'll get the chance to try it again some day!

I wish we had attempted to walk Sagebrush during the King's Putter, that would be my nomination for greatest unwalkable.


Pete,


Played the Eisenhauer course many times. No way that would be an enjoyable course to walk.
Tim Weiman

John Kirk

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Re: What Is The Greatest Unwalkable Golf Course?
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2015, 12:51:23 AM »
Just to be clear John, are you talking unwalkable while carrying your own bag, or unwalkable period (even with a trolley or caddie)?

The best course that I have played recently that was borderline unwalkable was Black Forest.  The property is expansive and hilly, with a few legit hikes between holes.  What put it over the top for me though was the mile+ hike back to my car after the 18th hole.

Hey Jason,

I would say you must walk and manage your own clubs, so either pack a bag or push/pull a trolley.

Kingsley Club is a course where carrying a bag is significantly easier than using a trolley.  Kingsley pushes the limits of the "walkable" definition.  Rob Rigg probably has it as a YELLOW course, but I'd rate it AMBER.

Pete,

I think I walked Sagebrush when we were up there.  I can't remember.  Nice course, with the best yurt in golf.

Tom_Doak

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Re: What Is The Greatest Unwalkable Golf Course?
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2015, 04:45:52 AM »
John:

Having had my memory refreshed by the Michigan Rankings thread, another candidate for me would be Greywalls in northern Michigan. I loved that place, and I can't imagine anyone being crazy enough to walk that course.

I'm very much a dedicated walker, but one thing that Ballyhack and Greywalls both prove is that without carts, we'd be missing out on some damn fine courses.


I walked and played Greywalls a couple of years ago [and carried my own bag!], playing with Brian Schneider and their superintendent.  It was a hike to get up to #5 fairway and #6 tee, and then again to get up to #8 green, but after we got past there it wasn't difficult at all.  I was not exhausted after the round.


For that matter, I played Stone Eagle in February with my client from Tara Iti [who is a member there] and two of his partners ... all of them age 65+ but in good shape, and all three of them walked the course.  It is not so hard to do with a caddie.


I do agree with the premise of John's thread; I don't like to design courses that aren't walkable, as I think it detracts greatly from the overall experience.  Stone Eagle was the best we could do for walkability with the site we had.  The only really long walk is from #6 to #7 ... we just needed #6 to be a short par-4 for the overall length of the course, and once we found the hole we decided we had to build it there even if it made the walk harder, since not many members were actually going to walk anyway.

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: What Is The Greatest Unwalkable Golf Course?
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2015, 07:53:36 AM »
If the course requires a shuttle to the first hole, or between 9's is it "unwalkable"?

Rick Emerson

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Re: What Is The Greatest Unwalkable Golf Course?
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2015, 08:25:04 AM »
I used to work at a golf course owned and run by the Maryland national capital park and planning commission in High School. It gave me access to all the courses they owned in the public parks in Montgomery County. The most interesting and hardest golf course was Little Bennett. It was built into the side of a Mountain and a near impossible walk. I loved that course though.

BHoover

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Re: What Is The Greatest Unwalkable Golf Course?
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2015, 08:41:34 AM »
How is any course unwalkable? There are undoubtedly difficult walks, but unwalkable?

Ian Andrew

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Re: What Is The Greatest Unwalkable Golf Course?
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2015, 08:43:03 AM »
Nothing is unwalkable


It's whether the walks between are worth the golf. There's a point where I'd rather play something less dramatic than something spectacular and disjointed


The entire journey is part of the experience.
-

Mike Schott

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Re: What Is The Greatest Unwalkable Golf Course?
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2015, 08:47:11 AM »
If the course requires a shuttle to the first hole, or between 9's is it "unwalkable"?


Yes, without question. A walkable course means you should never need transportation.

Alan Ritchie

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Re: What Is The Greatest Unwalkable Golf Course?
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2015, 08:52:35 AM »
the first that spring to mind for me would be some of the Nz courses I've played ( although I walked them all) Kauri cliffs is an utter brute to get round. it certainly must be one of the best courses in the region but probably doesn't get unanimous 8s. jacks point and kinloch are also great hikes that take well over 3 hours on my own.. I would score them at least 8 but maybe I get too influenced by the scenery!

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: What Is The Greatest Unwalkable Golf Course?
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2015, 08:55:49 AM »
I do walk Ballyhack sometimes. The front nine isn't so bad. I will take a cart and park it at nine green and walk from there. The back nine is a tad harder to walk.  As for places I wouldn't walk:  Black Rock and Sanctuary come to mind. 
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 02:47:51 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

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K Rafkin

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Re: What Is The Greatest Unwalkable Golf Course?
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2015, 09:05:02 AM »
Would courses such as Stone Eagle and Ballyhack (I have not yet played either) become significantly more walkable with the construction of a few walking bridges?

Carl Rogers

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Re: What Is The Greatest Unwalkable Golf Course?
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2015, 09:28:46 AM »
Are their high altitude courses that are great but difficult walks? Banff??


I might add in this category comfortable and reasonable walks for people of a variety of ages.  Also, do you carry & walk or push a cart?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 09:32:43 AM by Carl Rogers »
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Carl Rogers

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Re: What Is The Greatest Unwalkable Golf Course?
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2015, 09:49:50 AM »
Just don't tell Tommy Williamsen, my kids, or the other members who walk regularly that Ballyhack is unwalkable.

WW
Wade, Tommy et al,
For me to walk & carry, Ballyhack would be ok (I think), until the 11th hole ... after that, I would be a whipped puppy.  The climbs on the back nine to up to the tees for 14, 15, 16, 17 (and then the walk around, down and up to the 17th green would be exceedingly rough for me after all that).


I am in camp that believes that walking is the best way to experience the course which is why I am:
-going to the gym 3 times a week at age almost 62, getting on treadmill w/ 20 pounds on my back, cranking up the difficulty and doing that for 15 minutes
-reducing the number of clubs in my bag to 11
-reducing the number of all other items in the bag to the bare minimum even down to tees and ball markers


..... will see how this works out in a few months


at the Dixie Cup, I was dragging on hole 7, steepest hole on the course, (16th hole as we started at 10) at Lookout Mountain.





I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Wade Whitehead

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Re: What Is The Greatest Unwalkable Golf Course?
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2015, 10:01:50 AM »
Would courses such as Stone Eagle and Ballyhack (I have not yet played either) become significantly more walkable with the construction of a few walking bridges?

Two issues prevent the construction of such bridges at Ballyhack (and other places): permitting and cost.

Bridges on eleven and seventeen would help a lot, but I can't imagine how much they would cost.  I'm sure Lester knows.

That doesn't mitigate the walk from eight green to nine tee, from nine green to ten tee, or from thirteen green to fourteen tee.

Recall that Lester has said, many times, that he had a choice on Ballyhack's terrain: Build a walking golf course or build the best golf course he could.

WW

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