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John Connolly

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When Flynn followed Ross
« on: October 02, 2015, 08:08:24 PM »
Can anyone come up with an instance where Flynn did work on a course after Ross had either designed or renovated it?
"And yet - and yet, this New Road will some day be the Old Road, too."

                                                      Neil Munroe (1863-1930)

Joe Bausch

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Re: When Flynn followed Ross
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2015, 08:17:36 PM »
Yes, McCall just outside of Philadelphia.
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The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Sven Nilsen

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Re: When Flynn followed Ross
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2015, 08:35:17 PM »

Denver CC in CO, Glen View in IL, Prince Georges in MD, Flourtown CC and Gulph Mills CC in PA, and Sewells Point and Washington GC in VA.

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: When Flynn followed Ross
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2015, 08:51:17 PM »
Courtesy of Wayne Morrison:


Flynn and Ross are connected on many courses:
1919 Washington GCC - redesigned 18 holes
1921 Pocono Manor (original may be Barker, not Ross) - redesigned 9 and added 9

1922 Glen View Club (Colt and Ross did some redesign to original course) - redesigned 18 (not all implemented)
          Kittansett Club - Ross lost competition to Flynn
1923 McCall Field - Flynn redesigned 9 and added 9
          Denver CC - Flynn redesigned Ross's 1914 work
1924 Gulph Mills GC - Flynn re-grassed 17 greens
1925 CC York - Flynn lost competition to Ross
          Homestead Old Course - Flynn redesigned 18 holes
          Ritz Carlton, Boca Raton - Ross and Flynn designed 18 hole courses (see photo of Flynn and Ross at Boca Raton)
1934 Wampanoag CC - Flynn redesigned par 5 holes and perhaps additional work
          Whitemarsh Valley CC - Flynn's 1934 redesign changed some of Ross's prior redesign work
1937 Pocantico Hills GC - Ross lost competition to Flynn
1945 Indian Spring - Flynn redesigned 18 holes




The Sewell's Point (the current Norfolk CC) was not a Ross, it was always a Flynn.  There may have been 2 different 9 holes by Ross.
Gulph Mills was only agronomic work
Prince George's was originally called Beaver Dam, as  known by Flynn
The current 9 hole Flourtown CC was the first Sunnybrook course, as known by Flynn
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 08:53:41 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tim Martin

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Re: When Flynn followed Ross
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2015, 08:01:16 AM »
Courtesy of Wayne Morrison:


Flynn and Ross are connected on many courses:
1919 Washington GCC - redesigned 18 holes
1921 Pocono Manor (original may be Barker, not Ross) - redesigned 9 and added 9

1922 Glen View Club (Colt and Ross did some redesign to original course) - redesigned 18 (not all implemented)
          Kittansett Club - Ross lost competition to Flynn
1923 McCall Field - Flynn redesigned 9 and added 9
          Denver CC - Flynn redesigned Ross's 1914 work
1924 Gulph Mills GC - Flynn re-grassed 17 greens
1925 CC York - Flynn lost competition to Ross
          Homestead Old Course - Flynn redesigned 18 holes
          Ritz Carlton, Boca Raton - Ross and Flynn designed 18 hole courses (see photo of Flynn and Ross at Boca Raton)
1934 Wampanoag CC - Flynn redesigned par 5 holes and perhaps additional work
          Whitemarsh Valley CC - Flynn's 1934 redesign changed some of Ross's prior redesign work
1937 Pocantico Hills GC - Ross lost competition to Flynn
1945 Indian Spring - Flynn redesigned 18 holes




The Sewell's Point (the current Norfolk CC) was not a Ross, it was always a Flynn.  There may have been 2 different 9 holes by Ross.
Gulph Mills was only agronomic work
Prince George's was originally called Beaver Dam, as  known by Flynn
The current 9 hole Flourtown CC was the first Sunnybrook course, as known by Flynn


Steve-Any other info available on what Flynn did at Wampanoag? It has a very interesting set of par 5 holes. At 465,492,463 in today's game the first three function as half par holes which provide plenty of options. The final par 5 which comes on hole number 12 stretches out to 507 which is longer than the first three but no less interesting.


GLawson

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Re: When Flynn followed Ross
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2015, 03:38:20 PM »
Pretty sure that Sewells is no longer Norfolk CC and is now owned by the US Navy

Ronald Montesano

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Re: When Flynn followed Ross
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2015, 06:15:54 AM »
Pocono Manor, as mentioned previously. Tremendous golf course, distinguished holes, memorable shots, welcoming atmosphere. If you find yourself in the area, you should make a special effort to play it. I know that Flynn followed Ross, although I'm confident he didn't replace Ross so much as he added on to his work. The hole they use for photos, the 18th, is something of an afterthought when the other 17 are recalled.
Coming in August 2023
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Nate Oxman

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Re: When Flynn followed Ross
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2015, 08:16:28 AM »
I agree wholeheartedly. Pocono Manor's East Course is a ton of fun (and very inexpensive) to play, despite the aforementioned 18th, and the alternate hole (think it plays as No. 2 when used) that the club inserts when the drop-shot par 3 7th is unplayable. The rest make for an entertaining round.

MCirba

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Re: When Flynn followed Ross
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2015, 11:43:47 AM »
Just played Pocono Manor East recently with Joe Bausch and Matt Frey and it was even better than I'd remembered, particularly the Flynn holes.

The first nine holes (today's 5, 6, 17 (which was two holes), 18, 1, practice par three 2, 2 and combined 3 and 4 into a long par five were Herbert Barker, not Ross.

Flynn created today's holes 7 through 16.   
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 12:00:26 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: When Flynn followed Ross
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2015, 11:59:23 AM »
Courtesy of Wayne Morrison:


The current Sewell's Point (at the Norfolk Naval Station) is definitely by Flynn and was originally one of the Norfolk Yacht and CC courses (they appear to have had 36 holes). 
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Sven Nilsen

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Re: When Flynn followed Ross
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2015, 01:09:35 PM »
The Sewell's Point story bears some investigation.


I understand from Wayne that the current Sewell's Point course matches the Flynn plans they have in both location and routing.  When and why Ross' name was attached to the course remains a mystery.


The course started as part of the Norfolk Yacht & CC, which itself started as the Norfolk CC.


Norfolk CC (aka CC of Norfolk) dates back to 1896 and was first located in the Edgewater section of Norfolk. The 1899 Golf Guide notes golf was a recent addition while the 1900 Harpers Guide notes a 9 hole course that was laid out by J. Saunders Taylor in September of 1898. 


The club history notes a move in 1902 to a location near Sewell's Point, and the construction of a new 9 hole course.  The club moved yet again in 1908 to a location along the Lafayette River with yet a 3rd 9 hole course being constructed which was expanded to 18 holes in 1915 (as noted in the 1916 Annual Guide).  This course would be gone within ten years time as the land was needed for naval expansion.  The clubhouse of the Norfolk Yacht & CC (the name adopted in 1936) remains at this location.


It is my understanding that around this time the club built a new course at the site of today's Sewell's Point Golf Course (the Norfolk CC course being taken over in 1942 when the name would change).


The Annual Guides in the 20's note the following:


1920 - An 18 hole 6,190 yard course as well as a 9 hole 2,931 yard course.
1921 - An 18 hole 6,000 yard course.
1922 - An 18 hole 5,863 yard course with an additional 9 holes under construction.
1923 and 1925 - An 18 hole 5,571 yard course.
1926 - An 18 hole 6,015 yard course and a 9 hole 2,700 yard course.
1927, 1929 and 1931 - An 18 hole 6,471 yard course.


The additional 9 holes noted in the 1920 Guide is a bit of a mystery.  If it did indeed exist, it appears to have had a very short life.


As for the 9 hole course noted in the 1926 Guide, this too does not appear to have lasted very long as an 1932 Golf Illustrated article notes only the 18 hole 6,471 yard course.


The 18 hole course which opened around 1926 corresponds to Flynn's 1924 plans, as well as later aerial photographs of the course (as noted above).


So was Ross involved?  The Ross Society gives his work a date of 1927 (after Flynn's involvement and after the course opened) yet Cornish & Whitten note that Ross preceded Flynn here.  Did he have a hand in one of the earlier iterations of the club's courses?  The 1915 date for the expansion to 18 holes would be early in his career, but would be plausible.  Or did he have a hand in one of the two 9 hole courses noted in the Annual Guides, if indeed they were ever built?


Or is this attribution simply a mistake?



"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When Flynn followed Ross
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2015, 01:22:37 PM »
It is entirely possible that this Norfolk CC in Virginia was confused with the course of the same name in Massachusetts, somewhere that Ross did do work.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Nate Oxman

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Re: When Flynn followed Ross
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2015, 06:51:13 PM »
Mike, who designed that crazy third greensite at Pocono Manor? The first time I played it I thought that the hole could have once played from a tee near the original practice green downhill toward the green in the opposite direction. If not, playing to that green from the opposite direction would make a great cross country hole today. Holes 7-16 are terrific!

Joe Bausch

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Re: When Flynn followed Ross
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2015, 07:25:45 PM »
Just played Pocono Manor East recently with Joe Bausch and Matt Frey and it was even better than I'd remembered, particularly the Flynn holes.

The first nine holes (today's 5, 6, 17 (which was two holes), 18, 1, practice par three 2, 2 and combined 3 and 4 into a long par five were Herbert Barker, not Ross.

Flynn created today's holes 7 through 16.


How my eyes and camera saw Pocono Manor on this day:


http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/poconomanor/
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

MCirba

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Re: When Flynn followed Ross
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2015, 09:50:23 AM »
Mike, who designed that crazy third greensite at Pocono Manor? The first time I played it I thought that the hole could have once played from a tee near the original practice green downhill toward the green in the opposite direction. If not, playing to that green from the opposite direction would make a great cross country hole today. Holes 7-16 are terrific!

Hi Nate,

Great question, and I can only speculate but I think it's pretty well-supported by events and the site itself.

Years ago I did a fair amount of research trying to understand the source of the Donald Ross attribution for Pocono Manor East.  To this day I don't believe The Donald had anything to do with the course.

That research resulted in putting together an article the speculated that perhaps Samuel Allen, an engineer who was part of the creation of Pocono Manor with his Quaker friends and who invented the "Flexible Flyer" sled designed the original nine holes at PM.   I speculated because just a year earlier some of those same friends had him design the 9-hole course at Moorestown Field Club, which exists to this day.   Early maps also show Allen purchasing and building a large home at PM near the original ninth green.

The late, great researcher Tom MacWood later found articles that indicated the original nine holes were designed by Herbert Barker.   An early land plan for the course is reproduced below and show that those nine holes were not exactly built as designed.   Instead, what had been proposed for the 3rd and 4th holes got merged into today's 17th hole, a sharp dogleg right.   Also, Barker's proposed 9th hole, a par five from today's 3rd tee to today's 4th green got split into those two holes.

Those familiar with the property realize that a steep ravine runs through that section, which is crossed on the approach to today's 5th hole (original first).   Looking at the Barker plan, it appears that the builders decided that building down in that section was a problem on the proposed 3rd green/4th tee combo so instead created the sharp dogleg to avoid it.

Similarly, a drive from the proposed 9th (today's 3rd tee) would have simply landed in the bottom of the ravine and given the sideslope could have kicked anywhere, (also resulting in a completely blind second from the gully) hardly a satisfying finish.   

I would surmise that in building the course, Allen and his friends simply did the practical thing and worked around the problem.   Following are two pages from that article that I think will help to illustrate the theory.   Thanks!




« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 09:53:04 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Re: When Flynn followed Ross
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2015, 10:11:35 AM »
Today's 7th is another of the quirky holes at Pocono Manor, a semi-blind 77 yard drop shot from what is essentially a cliff-top.

However, the Flynn drawing for this hole shows it as a 115 yard par three, and an earlier colorized photo (shown below) shows the shot from what is likely a tee further left nearer to today's 16th green (note the orientation of the fronting creek), which has likely been abandoned, again from the article I previously wrote.

"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Mike Tanner

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Re: When Flynn followed Ross
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2015, 05:03:36 PM »
The Sewell's Point story bears some investigation.


I understand from Wayne that the current Sewell's Point course matches the Flynn plans they have in both location and routing.  When and why Ross' name was attached to the course remains a mystery.


The course started as part of the Norfolk Yacht & CC, which itself started as the Norfolk CC.


Norfolk CC (aka CC of Norfolk) dates back to 1896 and was first located in the Edgewater section of Norfolk. The 1899 Golf Guide notes golf was a recent addition while the 1900 Harpers Guide notes a 9 hole course that was laid out by J. Saunders Taylor in September of 1898. 


The club history notes a move in 1902 to a location near Sewell's Point, and the construction of a new 9 hole course.  The club moved yet again in 1908 to a location along the Lafayette River with yet a 3rd 9 hole course being constructed which was expanded to 18 holes in 1915 (as noted in the 1916 Annual Guide).  This course would be gone within ten years time as the land was needed for naval expansion.  The clubhouse of the Norfolk Yacht & CC (the name adopted in 1936) remains at this location.


It is my understanding that around this time the club built a new course at the site of today's Sewell's Point Golf Course (the Norfolk CC course being taken over in 1942 when the name would change).


The Annual Guides in the 20's note the following:


1920 - An 18 hole 6,190 yard course as well as a 9 hole 2,931 yard course.
1921 - An 18 hole 6,000 yard course.
1922 - An 18 hole 5,863 yard course with an additional 9 holes under construction.
1923 and 1925 - An 18 hole 5,571 yard course.
1926 - An 18 hole 6,015 yard course and a 9 hole 2,700 yard course.
1927, 1929 and 1931 - An 18 hole 6,471 yard course.


The additional 9 holes noted in the 1920 Guide is a bit of a mystery.  If it did indeed exist, it appears to have had a very short life.


As for the 9 hole course noted in the 1926 Guide, this too does not appear to have lasted very long as an 1932 Golf Illustrated article notes only the 18 hole 6,471 yard course.


The 18 hole course which opened around 1926 corresponds to Flynn's 1924 plans, as well as later aerial photographs of the course (as noted above).


So was Ross involved?  The Ross Society gives his work a date of 1927 (after Flynn's involvement and after the course opened) yet Cornish & Whitten note that Ross preceded Flynn here.  Did he have a hand in one of the earlier iterations of the club's courses?  The 1915 date for the expansion to 18 holes would be early in his career, but would be plausible.  Or did he have a hand in one of the two 9 hole courses noted in the Annual Guides, if indeed they were ever built?


Or is this attribution simply a mistake?


Sven,
I think it's entirely possible that attributing Sewells Point GC to Ross is a mistake. The Ross Society list of golf courses was started in 1986 by Pete Jones with the original list taken from Whitten and Cornish's The Architects of Golf, in which Sewells Point is attributed to Ross. According to the Ross Society, Pete contacted the courses on the list and surveyed them for information and supporting documents. So maybe the answer lies in the Tufts Archives. Or maybe with Ron Whitten.


There's at least one printed source naming Ross as the designer. I have a copy of a newspaper article written by Tom Fergusson, Virginian-Pilot sports writer, and published February 24, 1961 as part of a series of articles about Tidewater (as the region was once known) Virginia golf courses that names Ross as the architect.


 "In 1926, the Norfolk Country Club officials wanted nothing but the best for their new golf coarse and so they hired the late Donald H. Ross of Pinehurst, N.C., perhaps the leading golf course architect of his day, to design the course.
   The late Jim McMenamin of Hampton (ranking amateur and and professional golfer) was hired a year later as the first pro. He also proved to be of valuable assistance in building the course."


One thing's for sure, the course as built is the same course represented in Flynn's September 27, 1924 routing, Golf Course of The Country Club, Norfolk, Virginia.


Whether the Ross attribution is accurate or not, club management proudly markets that connection. But don't go there expecting to see anything more than Flynn's routing. During a course renovation by Ault, Clark and Associates, the greens were completely altered and expanded to nearly double their exist dimensions.   















Life's too short to waste on bad golf courses or bad wine.

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