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Jason Thurman

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Town & Country Club and the ground game
« on: September 30, 2015, 03:47:53 PM »
Having recently played Town & Country Club in St. Paul as part of this year’s Midwest Mashie, I’ve spent the last several days thinking about the challenge it poses and the questions it asks of one’s game. Like many of my favorite courses, I’m finding it to be one that “sticks with you” long after you’ve left the 18th green, and I keep thinking about how I would play certain holes differently on a return visit.

In the last year, I’ve grown a real fondness for parkland courses where the ground game is still a big part of the proceedings. My home course away from home, Wolf Run, is a perfect example of such a course. It’s not particularly wide, and it demands a player be able to carry the ball a reasonable distance, but with its firm surfaces and punishing slopes it also requires a player to accurately judge how balls will bounce upon landing. Despite the score I shot, Town & Country isn’t nearly as difficult as Wolf Run. Yet, it also features the same theme of a relatively narrow, parkland, target-oriented course that nonetheless requires the player to gauge runout and judge how the ball will bounce when it lands.

What strikes me about Town & Country is that virtually every bounce is a penal one. It’s not a course that offers side slopes for bouncing the ball to a target, nor do its downhill approaches feed the ball gently onto the putting surface. Instead, it’s a course where fairways like the 1st, 4th, 6th, 10th, and 16th, just to name a few, feed the ball aggressively to the left or right and toward rough and other punishment when it lands. Likewise, slopes at 4, 5, 10, and 11, among others, repel poorly struck or judged shots further from the putting surface… sometimes by as much as 100 yards! In its own category lies the approach to 15, where a long slope into the green looks like a friendly way to run the ball on. In reality, the approach is more likely to feed the ball through the green and off the back, or worse, leave a player hung in the right rough on the downslope.

It strikes me that golf at Town & Country is less about USING the ground game than it is about MANAGING the bounces your ball will inevitably take. After some reflection, I’m not sure that I’ve ever seen a course that more effectively uses slopes as hazards. In many places, it would be possible to make slopes more strategic so that players can use them to feed balls onto greens or toward targets. The 6th fairway, 10th green, and 15th approach immediately come to mind as places where an adjusted mowing line or a tweak to a slope could add additional options and make the ground game more of a collaborative force on the course than a punishing one. However, I’m not sure that widening the fairway to the left on 6, or trimming the right side of 10 green, or expanding the ramp into 15 green would actually make the course better. Would Town & Country be a better course with more strategic options? Or are its demanding and compelling slopes the very thing that makes it special? Or both?
Note: For those who haven't seen the course, and for reference for those who have, Pat Craig's excellent photo tour offers a great introduction: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,59617.msg1404774.html#msg1404774
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Town & Country Club and the ground game
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2015, 05:48:25 PM »
Jason,

Awesome stuff!

Your post really made me think, and candidly I had never looked at the different (severe) slopes on the course that way before. But I understand what you're trying to say. I think you are absolutely correct about having to "manage" many of the slopes at T&C. The way I think of some tee shots, say like the 1st one, is that you have to play the "break" of the fairway much like you do a putt.

However, I am thinking of a few examples with different holes that might run slightly counter to your thinking above. I think overall while there are many scenarios of where a slope pushes the player toward trouble, I think at T&C many times you would much prefer to approach the green from as close to the trouble as possible. 

For example, on #1 while the fairway slope dictates that most tee balls will roll hard right-to-left toward the creek on the left if you look closely the by far best angle of attack to that green is from right next to the creek. The lie is nearly flat, the green (which is one of the most severe on the course) breaks back right to front left toward the creek, and you do not have to carry the bunker short right of the surface.

Another example is #10. Which I think is a tough hole to grasp the first time you play it. I think in reality the slope of the fairway off the tee actually helps the player off the tee, as the ideal angle of approach is from as far left as possible (to the point it can look like you're hooking a ball off the tee toward the OB but in reality you have a lot more room than you think). As I told my group, anything center to right of center is pretty much dead on the hole, as there are a number of trees short right of the green that would require a fade or cut in order to get close to the pin or hold the green...of course that is a brutally tough task from a slope that almost guarantees a straight or right-to-left ballflight. My personal thought (this was also recently reaffirmed during a course walk with Darius Oliver) is that the trees short and right of the hole should be cleared out and removed. That would at least give a player who plays right an opportunity to hit the green, even if it's still a very tough task off a side hill lie.

That being said, there are just some flat out severe and penal slopes at T&C. The slope right of #11 green is both an awesome feature as well as a terrifying one given that there is OB ~10 yards left of the putting surface, and if a ball is hit down there it nearly guarantees a 4 or a 5. The fairway slope short on #5 is another severe example which will flat out return a poorly hit approach shot back to your feet some 100 yards.

Clearly T&C has an interesting, but also very severe, piece of property and some of these landforms would be just unavoidable if you were trying to route a course within its roughly 90 acre plot. Leading off of that point, Jeff Mingay told a group of us at an event this past July that T&C's routing actually resembles many Scottish designs in that unlike avoiding or playing around a big bold landform (like a hill or a dune), the holes many times play directly into and over them.

I think additional short grass in places would be a sigificant benefit to T&C and would make the slopes less punishing as you put it. Using your examples of #6, #15, and #10:

I think #6 would be a more interesting hole if its fairway and the 13th fairway (just to the north) were combined. Darius Oliver came up with this idea and I like it a lot. The huge natural feature you hit over on your approach on #6 is actually lower on the left side than the right. I think with some tree clearing on the right side it would allow for a player to try to either take the shorter, more direct, route to the green down the right side but have to hit over the steepest part of the hill. While the left side could be taken advantage by players willing to play the hole longer, but with less of the slope.

On #15, it should be noted that the original approach to that green was very very wide and if you look closely there is an almost punchbowl feature short right and left of the putting surface that over the years was covered in rough. For some reason, the approach was purposely narrowed in the 80's in order to make the hole "tougher", but the last couple of springs the superintendant has made an effort to widen the approach out a bit each year. Personally, I would like to see the approach widened all the way out on both sides which would allow you to potentially run a ball to the left side of the green (the natural slope of the hole goes toward the back right corner). Darius Oliver, this summer during his visit, loved the 15th green and said if the fairway was restored you would be able to choose from the top of the hill to either fly, chip, pitch, or putt down the slope...all while still requiring a soft touch given the severeness of the slope.

On #10, I see what you mean about balls rolling down off that hill. I wouldn't be opposed to maintaining that slope as shorter grass, but it should be noted that when more (as it is typically) dry balls do typically bounce and/or run off that slope into the green already. If anything I think short grass might make it much more punishing as it would just roll balls down the hill, over the green, and further down the slope?

I'm curious though as to why you thought that the course was lacking in strategic options? Can you give me an example? What did you think was the most strategic hole out there? (I can follow up with my own examples, but I'm curious to hear your own first).
H.P.S.

Ken Fry

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Re: Town & Country Club and the ground game
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2015, 09:20:42 PM »
Like Jason, I've spent the last few days mentally revisiting each course from the Mashie.  Town & Country is unique in so many ways.

The positives for me:  Not once did I feel claustrophobic.  Pretty impressive given the course occupies only 90 acres.
As Jason eluded to, the course is all about the dramatic slopes.  Pure yardage gets thrown out the window as shot placement means everything.  To me, the routing utilized the natural movement of the property without fighting it.  That's an impressive accomplishment given the severity of the slopes and how small the property is.  Tree management is such a huge issue on a course that has basically remained the same since 1920.  It's obvious an effort is underway to remove trees negatively affecting play and course health.

The negatives for me:  More trees need to be removed.  The trees backing the third green look silly and completely out of place.  The trees around the 13th tee encroach on play too much and the wall of shrubs behind 18 green needs to be addressed.  on 18, maybe the club is concerned about safety on the first tee.  Oh God, please don't put up a screen!

The biggest negative for me on all the courses from the Mashie is obvious:  we only played each course once.  There are so many instances I would change strategy or hit a different club or maybe even listen to my host a little better.  You can't truly judge a course in one play, not with any fairness.  I can say T&C is a first class experience because of it's rich history but mostly because players will see holes and be confronted with challenging shots they haven't faced before.

My question is long grass vs. short grass on such severe slopes.  Low handicap players will enjoy the short grass because they could possibly play off slopes to reach targets.  High handicap players enjoy the longer grass because it stops an errant shot from traveling even further away from intended targets.  What's the right combination for a course like T&C?

Ken

Jason Thurman

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Re: Town & Country Club and the ground game
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2015, 10:30:35 AM »

Pat, I assume your last paragraph is referring to my question of:

Quote
Would Town & Country be a better course with more strategic options? Or are its demanding and compelling slopes the very thing that makes it special? Or both?


I was merely referring to the fact that many of the slopes on the course are used in ways that penalize shots rather than in ways that open up strategic shotmaking. It’s hard to find many instances where a player can “bank” a shot off a slope to get close to a target out there, or opportunities to land in a certain spot and get a big distance boost forward. For the most part, once you leave the first fairway on each nine, the slopes of the course repel balls rather than helping them.

It strikes me that there are numerous places where a tweak in a mowing line might make a hole more “strategic” in the classical sense of the word. We’ve talked about 15, and you did a good job outlining 6. There are other examples throughout the course, like the landing zone on 16 or even 4. And yet, I’m not sure that any of those tweaks (aside from 15’s approach) would improve the course. To me, a big part of the course’s unique character is tied up in the unconventional way it uses its terrain, and I’d be very hesitant about changing it even to chase the hallowed label of “Strategic!”

That said, while I hadn’t been thinking about it previously, I do think I’d characterize the course as being more reflective of the penal school of architecture than the strategic school. This should come as no surprise. Town & Country is the rare stateside course that predates the Golden Age era that really saw the proliferation of strategic designs with width and multiple directional options on many holes. And while “penal” is a bit of a poisonous word around here, Town & Country demonstrates (much like Oakmont and Pine Valley) how a course that employs penal traits can be every bit as interesting as a course from the strategic school. The key, in both cases, is using topography in a way that makes shots and holes more interesting and encourages the ball to move after it lands. Town & Country does this beautifully. Unlike a strategic course where a player might get great joy from watching his ball sail over a fairway bunker and take a big bounce downhill as a result, Town & Country puts the player on pins and needles as he watches his ball land in the middle of the fourth fairway and start trickling toward the trees and pond on the left. The former may breed more joy, but the latter offers much more suspense.

As for the most strategic holes on the course, I think you’ve done a good job already of outlining the strategy at 1. I laid well back off that tee with a club that I felt confident I could get to the left side of the fairway to set up a short iron approach (which I promptly yanked 50 feet left of my target, which I’m sure was encouraged by the right-to-left slope of the fairway). I also think 8 is a sleeper of a strategic hole, as challenging the OB off the tee really opens up the approach nicely there. 6 is interesting, as it offers all kinds of options and some real meaningful width off the tee, but none of those options appears to be a particularly good one. Those are my favorite types of holes – the ones that are immune to a clear game plan and just present a puzzle with half its pieces missing that you still have to figure out a way to put together.

Still, I think the course’s overall challenge is more one of managing your shots so that your ball doesn’t roll behind or into things that will make your next shot impossible. The terrain is what makes that challenge interesting, as the course presents slope after slope that will work against all but the most wisely played shots. I’d characterize that design theme as a penal one, but also an enjoyable and interesting one thanks to the suspense of watching balls roll toward trouble, and also the fact that the course is playable for virtually all.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Town & Country Club and the ground game
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2015, 11:08:50 AM »
Ken,

Thanks for your note and for sharing your thoughts on T&C. It's always interesting to hear a first time visitor's thoughts on your home course.

As you said Town & Country is, if nothing else, unique. And hopefully my comment on the first tee rang true when I said "I'll never tell you that this is the best golf course in the state, or even the city, but you're going to see things here that you just won't see on a golf course anywhere else."

You're correct in that there have been a number of tree removals completed since when I first played the course in 2011. (In fact, you should see some of the "before" pictures circa 2000 that I dug up  :o  ). I wholeheartedly agree that more trees need to be removed, and playing corridors widened. There are still a few "tree screens" like the ones behind #3 and #18 that remain, but hopefully someday they'll either fall over in a windstorm or they will be rightfully hacked down!

As to your last point about short grass on severe slopes, a good example is the approach on #15. As of a couple of years ago, that approach had been narrowed down to 7.5 yards of fairway. When you tried to roll a ball down the slope, regardless of if you are a scratch golfer going for the green in two, or a lady golfer hitting a wood on your third shot, the ball likely hit, took a bounce right, and ended up in the rough above the green. You were then left with a downhill, sidehill, pitch shot from deep rough. That shot may not be overly tough for someone like you or I, but it's a tough shot for a 20 handicap woman. After they doubled the size of the opening to 15 yards, you can now run a ball down the slope more easily toward the green. The key to holding the green is that you need to hit it to the top of the hill...about 75 yards out, and then let it run down. If you hit it too hard it'll run through the back and right of the green. My hope is that the club will consider further widening the fairway to it's original width (more than 30 yards wide) short of the green to allow for more roll out options on the approach.

Of course on #15, isn't the strategic option present is that you can always lay back on your approach and leave yourself a downhill wedge from the top of the hill from about 75 yards?

You might of seen this picture before in either Rick's book or my previous thread on the course, but note not only the overall fairway width on nearly every hole, but in particular the 15th, which is the third hole from the bottom of the picture:




H.P.S.

Dan Kelly

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Re: Town & Country Club and the ground game
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2015, 11:20:50 AM »
My personal thought (this was also recently reaffirmed during a course walk with Darius Oliver) is that the trees short and right of the hole should be cleared out and removed. That would at least give a player who plays right an opportunity to hit the green, even if it's still a very tough task off a side hill lie.


Not sure if I'm saying what I believe, or playing the devil's advocate, but I'd like to present another viewpoint, which is:


The person who drives it right on 10 has made a *terrible mistake* -- which is obvious to anyone who has played the hole more than once.


Those trees short and right of 10 green are responsible for making the announcement: "You have made a terrible mistake. Now, are you going to go at the green and almost certainly compound that mistake, or are you going to make a sensible attempt to save par with a shot out to the fairway somewhere short of the green?"


Without those trees, yes, the shot from the right would still be more difficult than the shot from the left -- but not, it seems to me, dramatically more so. (I could be wrong about that, I guess. I don't remember ever having made that particular terrible mistake.)


I wonder: Would it be possible to leave one fine, lone tree short right with which a player would have to deal? This would give the person who has made the terrible mistake of driving right a reasonable risk/reward equation when considering his or her second shot.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

PCCraig

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Re: Town & Country Club and the ground game
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2015, 12:11:54 PM »
My personal thought (this was also recently reaffirmed during a course walk with Darius Oliver) is that the trees short and right of the hole should be cleared out and removed. That would at least give a player who plays right an opportunity to hit the green, even if it's still a very tough task off a side hill lie.

I wonder: Would it be possible to leave one fine, lone tree short right with which a player would have to deal? This would give the person who has made the terrible mistake of driving right a reasonable risk/reward equation when considering his or her second shot.


Dan,


I suppose you could. The difficulty from those tress short and right of the green isn't from having to carry the first tree's canopy, but from the "landing" where a ball gets stuck in the branches closer to the green. Since those trees hover over some thick rough/brush, a ball taking that route will typically hit then fall straight down.


But as a nearly pure right-to-left ballflight player, I have a question. Isn't the hole be exponentially harder for a player that hits a fade as 1) Boulevard trees block their ability to reach the ideal approach angle from the far left corner of the fairway, and 2) the "best" a fading player can do is reach the middle or middle-right of the fairway and have to tangle with the trees short and right?? 
H.P.S.

Dan Kelly

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Re: Town & Country Club and the ground game
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2015, 12:20:43 PM »
I have a question. Isn't the hole be exponentially harder for a player that hits a fade as 1) Boulevard trees block their ability to reach the ideal approach angle from the far left corner of the fairway, and 2) the "best" a fading player can do is reach the middle or middle-right of the fairway and have to tangle with the trees short and right??


Two answers:


1. Get rid of those boulevard trees, then!


2. The fader who hits to the center of the fairway can just hit that fade into the green, where he has no need to even consider the tree(s) short and right of the green.



"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Will Lozier

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Re: Town & Country Club and the ground game
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2015, 12:34:41 PM »
I have not played T&C but it would seem to me that pin position would dictate whether slopes can be used advantageously or are hazardous. Furthermore, angle of approach would play a large factor as well.


Take the 2nd at Pasatiempo. The right to left slope of the approach can be very helpful in getting to any pin on the left side of the green while a right pin is near impossible to get at, particularly if one is attempting a running approach. More generally, true Redans offer a way to get close to a back left pin while a front right placement is very difficult to get close to if one's shot lands short (and the conditions allow the hole to be played as intended).

Joe Zucker

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Re: Town & Country Club and the ground game
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2015, 03:03:26 PM »
I’m in general agreement with Jason, Pat, and Ken’s opinions on this very good course.  The question on how much of the course is strategic vs. penal is an interesting one.  I don’t think it can be easily separated and many of the penal aspects force the player to take a thoughtful approach, which is a strategy is some regard.

Jason and Pat noted that Town & Country is a course that needs to be managed well in order to play well.  I whole heartedly agree with this and cannot think of too many other courses where an effective game plan throughout the round could yield such a large difference in score.  On many of the par 4s (#1, 7, 8, 10) the placement of the tee shot is far more important than the distance.  Being on the proper side of the fairway opens up the approach so dramatically that it could be worth at least 30-40 yards of distance in my opinion.  These four holes have a very strategic element and as Pat noted, the slope on #1 and #10 helps a player get to the correct side of the fairway.  Unfortunately, many hole corridors just aren’t wide enough to really give the player a strategic choice.  Hopefully the gradual tree clearing Pat has mentioned will enhance these options and create a few more.

While there are a few instances of slopes helping the tee shot reach an optimal location, I can’t remember any features that would aid an approach in getting to the green, other than the hill on the right of #10 green (assuming it is cut to a reasonable length).  The severe drop to the left of #10 green, #11 green, #13 green, and the severe uphill climbs to the green on #4 and #5 all force a player to overcome the slopes, rather than use them.  These steep slopes have let the course maintain its difficulty for over 100 years even though it is relatively short by today’s standards.  The uniqueness of playing through/over the boldest parts of the property make T&C a fun challenge.

I come away from my one round at Town & Country believing that it would be very difficult to overpower this course with length off of the tee.  Even though there is a driveable par 4 and three straight par 5s on the back nine, managing the angles and slopes is far more important.  If I get another chance to play, I will think a lot more about my tee shots and probably take less club off a few tees to give myself a more advantageous angle.

PCCraig

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Re: Town & Country Club and the ground game
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2015, 03:19:02 PM »
I have a question. Isn't the hole be exponentially harder for a player that hits a fade as 1) Boulevard trees block their ability to reach the ideal approach angle from the far left corner of the fairway, and 2) the "best" a fading player can do is reach the middle or middle-right of the fairway and have to tangle with the trees short and right??


Two answers:


1. Get rid of those boulevard trees, then!


2. The fader who hits to the center of the fairway can just hit that fade into the green, where he has no need to even consider the tree(s) short and right of the green.


1) I don't think it's that easy? Given that they aren't "our" trees?


2) That would be one impressive fade given how much the ball is typically above the (right handed) players feet on their 2nd shot.
H.P.S.

PCCraig

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Re: Town & Country Club and the ground game
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2015, 04:50:44 PM »
Jason,

You make some really neat points regarding T&C's "penal" nature. I started going thorough the holes to figure out which are penal, which are more strategic, and which might be more strategic with tweaks:

#1 - Strategic - As discussed above, while the hole certainly has its share of trouble, I think this one is more strategic due to the different options and directions off the tee (short left to be closer to hazard but better angle, short right away from hazard with a sidehill lie and shot over bunker, long with driver to flatter portion of the fairway).

#2 - Penal - Only a wedge for most players, there really isn't anywhere to miss the green. Short left and right are bunkers, and long left and long center is a very hard up and down, and long right and right is a 50ft drop off toward the 1st fairway.

#3 - Penal - Not as penal as #2 but there really isn't a great place to miss the green.

#4 - Strategic - I know you mentioned this as penal, but I think it's more strategic than you give it credit for. Off the tee you can either hit an iron to a wide and somewhat flat part of the fairway, making it a three shot hole. Or you can try to thread a driver further down the hole to an area which the fairway gets narrower and balls are kicked left toward the water. If you find the fairway with a driver, if becomes a two-shot hole.

#5 - Penal - In its current state, I think this hole is overly penal. The green is really difficult to hit and hold, even with a wedge, and the hole/fairway has become overly narrow. I think this hole could/should be much more strategic...the green was originally much larger on the left and the right and the fairway used to be much wider. I think with a larger green and wider fairway, the pin would dictate the direction you would take off the tee in the effort to find the best angle of attack.

#6 - Penal - as a par-4, this is a pretty penal hole. I think if this was ever "restored" back to a par-5 and the fairway was widened/restored this would be a pretty strategic hole.

#7 - Strategic - The way you play this hole is dictated by the pin location. If you carry the bunker, you can hit a speed slot and gain an extra 20 yards of roll. There are some pin locations where the best way to get close is to hug the road/OB to the left.

#8 - Strategic - As you note above, I find this to be a somewhat strategic (albeit a straightforward one at that) hole. Even though some of the hardest up and downs on the entire course are the left greenside bunker and long of the green.

#9 - Toss - I think this hole is more strategic for longer hitters as they can gamble by hitting a driver down the sledding hill. But for most players, this is a pretty penal hole off the tee.

#10 - Penal - I think this hole could be more strategic but right now there is one ideal way to play the hole (hard left off the tee, mid-iron up the hill to the green).

#11 - Penal - Pretty much a penal hole, anyway you look at it.

#12 - Strategic - A lot of the strategy is off the tee where you can either hug the OB and leave yourself a more open shot to the green, or carry the bunker and give yourself another 20-30 yards of roll but have to carry the front right bunker (and have the fence and OB looming behind your target).

#13 - Strategic - We played the hole "up" last Sunday, so I'm sure most people hit driver at the green. The way I look at 13 is that you have three options off the tee: 1) Hit a mid-iron down the hill and right to leave yourself a 100 yard, but uphill and blind, approach 2) hit a rescue or long iron to the top of the plateau, leaving yourself a ~50 yard pitch to a visible green, or 3) going for the green and risking trouble right (deep bunker) or left (drop off).

#14 - Penal? - I suppose there is only one way to play this 240 yard par-3.

#15 - Penal - I suppose this hole is penal in its current state, but with tree removal (scheduled I believe for this winter), and a wider fairway this could become one of the more strategic holes on the course.

#16 - Penal - I think this hole could be extremely strategic if the playing cooridor was ever restored. For some reason this hole's fairway was drastically narrowed in the two landing areas and there are way too many trees on both sides of, and behind, the hole. It's too bad because there is a neat slope beyond the bunker which would kick balls that carry it forward down the hill, and the small green is reachable if you use the fairway slope short and right of the green...which kick balls toward the putting surface. And this is a cool small green.

#17 - Penal - Another par-5 that would benefit from some restored fairway and playing corridor width. 

#18 - Penal - There really isn't a good spot to miss this green. 


So I got a count of 12 Penal and 6 Strategic?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 04:53:53 PM by PCraig »
H.P.S.

Jason Thurman

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Re: Town & Country Club and the ground game
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2015, 10:36:10 AM »

Pat, I'm not sold on 4 as a "strategic" hole in the sense of being from the strategic school of architecture. You can certainly attack it in different ways and with different clubs off the tee, but ultimately isn't everyone just trying to hit it as far as they can while being able to confidently keep it in the fairway? I don't see a hazard to skirt for a better angle, or a riskier side to favor that makes the second shot easier. Both sides seem almost equally punishing with the "native" hillside right and the water and trees left. Regardless of how far one tries to hit their tee shot, it seems to me like everyone will be trying to hit the right side of the fairway so that their ball stays on short grass after bouncing left and sets up their second shot, which they'll go for if in range or lay up on if not.


7 I could be persuaded on, but I still see it as more a hole where you're avoiding trouble rather than playing for an angle. With the OB left and hazard right, it's hard for me to see one side as strategically preferable to the other, at least in a meaningful enough way that most players can purposefully take advantage. I feel similarly about 12, which is fairly wide relative to much of the course but still seems to me like a hole where most of us are just trying to hit it a long way and thread it between the bunker and the OB without much regard to which hazard we'd rather get close to.


It's important to state, though, that I don't think architecture from the penal school necessarily eliminates options or stops a player from employing a strategy. There are definitely strategic choices to be made about how a player wants to attack a lot of the holes at Town & Country, but those choices seem to me to be governed by what gives the player the best chance of keeping the ball on short grass and avoiding the pitfalls scattered throughout. When I think of architecture from the strategic school, I instead think about courses where the pitfalls are placed in spots where players are tempted to challenge them for a potential gain. I don't see a whole lot of pitfalls at Town & Country that I would purposefully flirt with to gain an advantage. Instead, it seems more like a course where the pitfalls are often imminent for everyone and the key is to avoid as many of them as possible. So while it feels like a course from the "penal school" to me, it's still a place where a player can employ a lot of strategy and, importantly, it's more fun to play than most courses that are assigned the coveted "strategic" label.


I'm glad you mentioned 16. The course has been around for over 100 years. Do the club archives have a record of anyone holding that fairway with a driver that flew near/past the bunker?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Town & Country Club and the ground game
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2015, 12:20:19 PM »
Thanks Jason, I love it. Hopefully I'm not coming across as defending T&C as a strategic course...I'm mostly trying to work through the course using your logic. I don't think you're wrong.


So...based on your "penal vs. strategic logic", and given that you played it over the same weekend, would you consider WBYC from the penal or strategic school? 
H.P.S.

Joe Zucker

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Re: Town & Country Club and the ground game
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2015, 02:31:19 PM »

So while it feels like a course from the "penal school" to me, it's still a place where a player can employ a lot of strategy and, importantly, it's more fun to play than most courses that are assigned the coveted "strategic" label.


Jason's post above summarizes how the course plays in my opinion better than I could have said it.  One thing no one has really talked about much is the course's length.  By traversing the steepest slopes of the property, the course plays plenty long enough.  Some holes have landing areas that limit roll out and others have the penal slopes we have been discussing that nudge a player to taking a shorter club off the tee, but never limiting the tee shot's distance with a hazard.

One of the most interesting things about T&C is that it has a relatively a short yardage and never forces driver out a players hand, but still doesn't feel short.  The creative routing stands out in the regard.

Dan Kelly

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Re: Town & Country Club and the ground game
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2015, 03:18:40 PM »
... creative routing...


This whole thread -- and particularly those two words -- have me wondering, and not for the first time:


If you handed modern architects a topographical map of T&C's property and said BUILD US AN 18-HOLE GOLF COURSE HERE, what would the course look like?
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Town & Country Club and the ground game
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2015, 03:18:58 PM »

Pat, White Bear is probably more reflective of the strategic school, at least in my book. For one, it's much wider than Town & Country and that opens up some real meaningful angles of play from the tee for even the average player. The big greenside bunker dominates affairs at the opening hole, but a drive that hugs the OB right off the tee can almost take that bunker out of play if executed well. The second really rewards a ball that challenges the dropoff and OB right to open up the best angle of approach. Cutting the dogleg at 4 shortens the hole and makes it reachable for many. Hugging OB right on 5 gives at least some view of the green on the approach. Elsewhere, I think players get rewarded for challenging trouble off the tee or on a layup at 9, maybe 12, 14, 15 (the farther left you go, the shorter the approach as long as you can still get to the top of the ridge), and 16. On each of those holes, taking a risky line on one shot offers a potential reward on a subsequent shot, while a player still has the option of bailing away from trouble and accepting an awkward next shot.


Now, the par 3s at White Bear are pretty penal, and the loss or lack of width on holes like 7 and 13 tends toward the penal side. But it's also notable that the course's defining trait, at least in my mind, is its incredible fairway topography. I would imagine that for different players the line off the tee will be whichever one avoids landing into an upslope or that takes advantage of a downslope. That line will vary from one player to the next depending on their preferred shot shape and how far they hit the ball, and so it can be hard to describe the "correct" strategy for a lot of the holes at White Bear. I think identifying Position A on most holes is a little easier at a place like Town & Country, but Town & Country is also the rare course where accessing Position A requires a combination of luck, local knowledge, and playing the proper shot for the day's conditions. That's a big part of what makes it a thoughtful round of golf even if it doesn't fit the traditional mold of what Golden Age writers would have considered "strategic design."
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Town & Country Club and the ground game
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2015, 03:21:29 PM »
... creative routing...


This whole thread -- and particularly those two words -- have me wondering, and not for the first time:


If you handed modern architects a topographical map of T&C's property and said BUILD US AN 18-HOLE GOLF COURSE HERE, what would the course look like?


Dan, I've thought the same. If you could take a topographic map of that piece of land from around 1888, it would make a great parcel to build an armchair architect contest around.


The other random thought I keep having pop up when I think about Town & Country: How would the course change if EVERYTHING was cut at fairway height? It's obviously impractical in real life, but it's fun to think about how hole-to-hole strategies would be different.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Joe Zucker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Town & Country Club and the ground game
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2015, 04:25:43 PM »

If you handed modern architects a topographical map of T&C's property and said BUILD US AN 18-HOLE GOLF COURSE HERE, what would the course look like?

Would many architects force a player to climb straight up 4, 5, and 6? Or keep the fairway as steeply canted as 1 or 10?  I doubt it.  Pat mentioned that there were talks of shaving down the hill on #6 to make the green more visible, but those talks have since stalled out.  That's a good thing, since a course this different would be lessened if it were made to look more like something built today. 

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Town & Country Club and the ground game
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2015, 04:05:48 PM »

Pat, White Bear is probably more reflective of the strategic school, at least in my book. For one, it's much wider than Town & Country and that opens up some real meaningful angles of play from the tee for even the average player. The big greenside bunker dominates affairs at the opening hole, but a drive that hugs the OB right off the tee can almost take that bunker out of play if executed well. The second really rewards a ball that challenges the dropoff and OB right to open up the best angle of approach. Cutting the dogleg at 4 shortens the hole and makes it reachable for many. Hugging OB right on 5 gives at least some view of the green on the approach. Elsewhere, I think players get rewarded for challenging trouble off the tee or on a layup at 9, maybe 12, 14, 15 (the farther left you go, the shorter the approach as long as you can still get to the top of the ridge), and 16. On each of those holes, taking a risky line on one shot offers a potential reward on a subsequent shot, while a player still has the option of bailing away from trouble and accepting an awkward next shot.

Now, the par 3s at White Bear are pretty penal, and the loss or lack of width on holes like 7 and 13 tends toward the penal side. But it's also notable that the course's defining trait, at least in my mind, is its incredible fairway topography. I would imagine that for different players the line off the tee will be whichever one avoids landing into an upslope or that takes advantage of a downslope. That line will vary from one player to the next depending on their preferred shot shape and how far they hit the ball, and so it can be hard to describe the "correct" strategy for a lot of the holes at White Bear. I think identifying Position A on most holes is a little easier at a place like Town & Country, but Town & Country is also the rare course where accessing Position A requires a combination of luck, local knowledge, and playing the proper shot for the day's conditions. That's a big part of what makes it a thoughtful round of golf even if it doesn't fit the traditional mold of what Golden Age writers would have considered "strategic design."


Thanks Jason, that is good analysis. I was trying to sort through WBYC last week using your penal vs. strategic thought process and was curious to hear your thoughts as you played both over the same weekend.
H.P.S.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Town & Country Club and the ground game
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2015, 04:15:39 PM »
... creative routing...


This whole thread -- and particularly those two words -- have me wondering, and not for the first time:


If you handed modern architects a topographical map of T&C's property and said BUILD US AN 18-HOLE GOLF COURSE HERE, what would the course look like?


Dan, I've thought the same. If you could take a topographic map of that piece of land from around 1888, it would make a great parcel to build an armchair architect contest around.


The other random thought I keep having pop up when I think about Town & Country: How would the course change if EVERYTHING was cut at fairway height? It's obviously impractical in real life, but it's fun to think about how hole-to-hole strategies would be different.


I thought about the point made above regarding what a routing would look like at T&C if a modern architect was handed a topo map today.


I think there are a few spots where the property is so sever that I think it was probably obvious to the architect at the time that a hole should be placed there. Spots like the 10th, isolated on the low corner of the property next to a steep hill, could probably be only played that way (or I suppose in the opposite direction). Another example is #11 in the corner of the property on a very clear high spot...that corner is so severe I can't imagine anything other than a par-3?


The property itself is very neat. It essentially consists of a ravine that bisects the property in a quasi half- "U" fashion, and two big gently rolling plateaus. Up on those plateaus you could probably build just about anything you wanted to. For the more severe undulations, I'm guessing a modern architect would employ a number of downhill shots, either off the tee or on the 2nd shots much like #9?


Given that the routing pre-1920 and until today have generally changed very little, perhaps it's complicated enough that either no one bothered to try to change the routing significantly or what is there now is just naturally the easiest way to get around the property?
H.P.S.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Town & Country Club and the ground game
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2015, 11:31:07 PM »
I spent some time looking at the view over the ridge to the right of 17 and thought it a shame that the incredible view from there to downtown Minneapolis was covered by trees and the ridge did not come into play on the course.  If I were routing the course anew, I would try and take advantage of that feature a bit more.  Not sure how I would do it but my first thought would be to make 17 into a par 4 with the green on the edge of the cliff and then do something to make 18 another par 4 finisher if there is room to do so. 


I would not change it today, however.  I find a par 3 finisher too much fun and the 17th is a very good hole.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Town & Country Club and the ground game
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2015, 07:36:39 AM »
Jason,


A bunch of us members typically look west toward Minneapolis and imagine what an incredible view that would be if all of those trees on that ridge between #10 and #17 were gone. Their removal would also give the back nine a great look and feel as the player would realize that he is on a huge elevated ridge/bluff hanging over the Mississippi. Folks love the drop on #9 and the view from there, so it is odd that essentially the same (if not better) view is covered up. The view would not only be great on 17, but also 14, 15, and 16. Removing those trees would It would be a huge project to take all of those down but hopefully some day it will happen. 


I think #17 is a strong hole, but my opinion is that the fairway and playing coorridor could and should be expanded to the west and toward that ridge significantly. There used to be a asphalt road up that hole toward a maintenence shed that was removed, however a line of low canopy trees that used to line the road remain and they make the hole a lot tighter than it should be, especially off the tee.   


Jason, and others, what is your view of the (new) back tee on #17?

H.P.S.

Dan Kelly

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Re: Town & Country Club and the ground game
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2015, 10:51:17 AM »
Jason, and others, what is your view of the (new) back tee on #17?


I like it. Wouldn't want to play from there into a stiff Southerly wind, though!
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

BHoover

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Re: Town & Country Club and the ground game
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2015, 10:55:38 AM »
I like the new back tee on 17. I think it's a better line than the current tee, which seemed to demand a big draw to find the fairway (a shot which I definitely have).

I also like the look of a small tee box cut into the hill next to the 11th green and 12th tee. Very cool feature.

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