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Thomas Dai

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Recently I played a course laid out many decades ago by an architect much admired on this site.

Knowing who the architect was and that there'd be no way he would build bland holes or more specifically bland green complexes, or that ones that looked bland from a distance weren't bland at all when you reached them, made me think long and hard about how to approach each hole, indeed I was probably looking across fairways even more than I normally do in order to get a sight of a green that I'd be playing a few holes later.


Hence the question does knowing the architect before you play a course effect your game plan?

Atb

Ben Hollerbach

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Hugely,


Knowing the architect before I play the course will both influence how I play the course as well as how I evaluate the course. If it's a designer I'm very familiar with then I'll be keenly focused on their design tendencies and identifying them on the new course during play. From distance if I see a feature that appears to be similar to something they commonly do, I'll almost always presume it will react the same way and play accordingly. If the course was designed by a notable architect and this is the first course of theirs that I've seen, my play would often be based about experiencing as much of their design as possible. My score would be thrown by the wayside and replaced with an academic exercise.

Ryan Coles

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I wouldn't say game plan but I believe it does your perception.


Most people with any degree of interest, will have a pre-conceived idea of the architect, good or bad. Does anyone play a course these days without scouring the website and google earth first? or seeing where it's ranked?


We give undue credit to those in favour and turn a blind eye to the positives of those who aren't.


How many have played say the Castle Course at St Andrews with a truly open mind? Most are loading the bullets whilst still in the car park.

Peter Pallotta

Thomas - I remember getting ready to play Crystal Downs and, having read a lot about those Mackenzie-Maxwell greens, the thought occurred to me: "Good - my hack golfer's tendency to never take enough club should finally serve me well. I won't be above the hole even once all day!".  So I didn't play any differently than I always do, but it didn't help: I still shot about 15 strokes higher than normal. (Putting into a bunker once or twice will do that).


Peter

Tom_Doak

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We give undue credit to those in favour and turn a blind eye to the positives of those who aren't.

How many have played say the Castle Course at St Andrews with a truly open mind? Most are loading the bullets whilst still in the car park.




There is no doubt that some architects get favorable treatment because of what they've built in the past, or because of their reputation in golf generally.  Blind taste tests went out the window when courses started putting architect's names on the scorecard [which wasn't that long ago].


However, your assertion about The Castle Course is off base.  No one here had much reason to criticize David Kidd's work UNTIL he built that course.  And the reviews about Gamble Sands have been overwhelmingly positive, which they wouldn't be if David was disfavored.

Eric Smith

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However, your assertion about The Castle Course is off base.  No one here had much reason to criticize David Kidd's work UNTIL he built that course. 


I don't know. Colin Sheehan once posted on here that Machrihanish Dunes was a Doak zero! Which is 7 or 8 points off, imo.

Ryan Coles

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Can it be a great course if it's not by a "great" architect?


Look at the descriptions in the City thread. It's not a case of describing a good or decent course, it's described as a "Ross" Course or a "Dye" Course. Presumably these courses would be lesser if you hadn't heard of the "        ".


Sure there's been threads on these lines, but makes you wonder who in GCA terms, who is the biggest one hit wonder?

Ryan Coles

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We give undue credit to those in favour and turn a blind eye to the positives of those who aren't.

How many have played say the Castle Course at St Andrews with a truly open mind? Most are loading the bullets whilst still in the car park.


There is no doubt that some architects get favorable treatment because of what they've built in the past, or because of their reputation in golf generally.  Blind taste tests went out the window when courses started putting architect's names on the scorecard [which wasn't that long ago].


However, your assertion about The Castle Course is off base.  No one here had much reason to criticize David Kidd's work UNTIL he built that course.  And the reviews about Gamble Sands have been overwhelmingly positive, which they wouldn't be if David was disfavored.


The latter is a fair point.


Perhaps who the Designer is less important than everything you think you already know about it.


I've no doubt that Mr Pallota's point in the other thread about modern experiences is true. Turn up in some crappy cramped hotel room, that everyone thinks is great and you'll likely find you like how compact and quaint it is.


I think in golf, architectural familiarity can also breed contempt. People generally like what they can't get every week, even when what they have at home is superior.


I also think I'd be disappointed if I was a designer and people thought, ah, its a Coles course, look out for the left hand doglegs and dead flat greens etc. Rightly or wrongly, people do pigeon hole though. They'll talk about Colt cross bunkers, Doak greens and Fazio dirt movement. On the Castle Course, perhaps it didn't harm DMK that his St Andrews Course was panned. At least no one knows whether his future courses will be a hit or shit. Perhaps neither greatness or failure comes from doing the tried and tested or cookie baking.

Adam Lawrence

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However, your assertion about The Castle Course is off base.  No one here had much reason to criticize David Kidd's work UNTIL he built that course. 


I don't know. Colin Sheehan once posted on here that Machrihanish Dunes was a Doak zero! Which is 7 or 8 points off, imo.


Mach Dunes opened _after_ the Castle course, Eric.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Eric Smith

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Thank you, Adam. My mistake. 

Kalen Braley

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Re: Does knowing the architect before you play a course effect your game plan?
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2015, 12:25:04 PM »
I think if I'm going to play a Jack Nicklaus course, or a Jim Engh course I have a pretty good idea of what i'm in for on that day....

Peter Pallotta

Re: Does knowing the architect before you play a course effect your game plan?
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2015, 12:35:13 PM »
I was thinking about this some more, and, only knowing Tom's courses from reading about them here, I have a feeling that if I played them I'd use less club off the tee and/or use a persimmon driver and not worry about hitting it 'far enough'; an intuition tells me that, for my game, it would be better for me to come into his greens with longer irons instead of trying (and more often than not failing) to be precise with shorter irons.


Peter

Tom_Doak

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Re: Does knowing the architect before you play a course effect your game plan?
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2015, 01:42:08 PM »
I think if I'm going to play a Jack Nicklaus course, or a Jim Engh course I have a pretty good idea of what i'm in for on that day....


More the latter than the former, actually, because Jack has built so much that he's had to try different things, and sometimes others have more input.


As Ryan alludes, for every course visit, whether it's because of the architect's name or the advance billing or the pictures you've seen, it comes down to managing expectations.  I just spent a week traveling around Maine and New Hampshire.  Some of the courses in Maine have been well chronicled here, and so I had expectations, and hardly any of those courses exceeded my expectations.  By contrast, I knew very little about the four courses I visited in New Hampshire, and every one of them was exciting to see.


I try really hard not to build courses that are different from each other, and also to keep some good piece of them offline, for people to discover for themselves when they get there. 

Tom_Doak

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Re: Does knowing the architect before you play a course effect your game plan?
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2015, 01:43:47 PM »
I was thinking about this some more, and, only knowing Tom's courses from reading about them here, I have a feeling that if I played them I'd use less club off the tee and/or use a persimmon driver and not worry about hitting it 'far enough'; an intuition tells me that, for my game, it would be better for me to come into his greens with longer irons instead of trying (and more often than not failing) to be precise with shorter irons.


Peter


That's an interesting theory, but I don't think it would work.  The advantage tends to come from being on the right SIDE of the fairway.  But almost anyone is better off coming in with a shorter club than a longer one, if they're coming in from the good side, or from the bad side.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Does knowing the architect before you play a course effect your game plan?
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2015, 01:57:16 PM »
Tom - I'd probably be wise to take your word for it and change my proposed game plan accordingly; but I'd note that, with a short iron in my hand, I'd be hard pressed NOT to aim right for the pin -- which in my case, and on those greens/surrounds, would be the classic sucker's play. I was thinking that, with longer irons, I'd be satisfied with a less ambitious shot to somewhere, anywhere, on or around the green. That approach/game plan would at least prevent several double-bogeys, which is a very real and important consideration for a score-conscious but average golfer like me.


Peter

Phil Young

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Re: Does knowing the architect before you play a course effect your game plan?
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2015, 02:26:53 PM »
If I'm playing a course built before WW II I try to completely ignore any preconceptions that I have about the architect and what I expect since, most likely, the course has been changed, many times greatly, from what that architect had designed. My play is based solely on what I see before me.

It is only after playing it (or touring it to simply see it) that I consider what was there and how it differs from other works by that same architect. I especially ask myself why specific features and/or holes were designed and built the way they were and also in their relation to other holes and within the routing itself. I try very hard to picture the land without the holes and ask myself what was it that the architect saw that inspired him to go in the direction that he did rather than another.

For example, if you are brave enough to wander off into the trees well right of the 5th, 7th 11th & 13th holes on Bethpage Black you'll find land that is every bit as exciting for holes as elsewhere on the course and could easily have been used, yet Tilly chose this specific routing? Why?

It is the potential answers to those questions which fascinate me the most on every course that I visit...

Tom_Doak

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Re: Does knowing the architect before you play a course effect your game plan?
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2015, 02:44:04 PM »
Tom - I'd probably be wise to take your word for it and change my proposed game plan accordingly; but I'd note that, with a short iron in my hand, I'd be hard pressed NOT to aim right for the pin -- which in my case, and on those greens/surrounds, would be the classic sucker's play. I was thinking that, with longer irons, I'd be satisfied with a less ambitious shot to somewhere, anywhere, on or around the green. That approach/game plan would at least prevent several double-bogeys, which is a very real and important consideration for a score-conscious but average golfer like me.


You are 3/4 of the way there.


But, instead of aiming for the middle of the green, you need to aim for the middle of your safe area.  If you were pretty confident you could hit the green all the time by aiming to the middle, then that's where you should be aiming; but if not, you want to aim to one side of the other of center, to take out of play the spots that might cost you a double bogey.


For Tour pros at Augusta, who are trying to avoid bogeys and not doubles, that means staying below the hole, unless there's water inside their safe area.  For most of us, it means avoiding impossible recovery shots [water, deep bunkers if you're afraid you might not get out, bunkers above the hole, etc.].  A lot of the time, it's better to miss short of the green than wide of it.


Now, that's all about if you want to shoot your lowest score.  Most golfers really, underneath it all, don't.  They want to feel great when they hit that one perfect shot that winds up close to the hole ... so they keep aiming at the hole, and the other 95% of their shots wind up in all sorts of bad places.  The funny thing is, if you aimed 30 feet away from the hole you'd probably be just as likely to wind up right next to it once or twice.  It just wouldn't feel as good.

RJ_Daley

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Re: Does knowing the architect before you play a course effect your game plan?
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2015, 03:19:51 PM »
Quote
Now, that's all about if you want to shoot your lowest score.  Most golfers really, underneath it all, don't.  They want to feel great when they hit that one perfect shot that winds up close to the hole ... so they keep aiming at the hole, and the other 95% of their shots wind up in all sorts of bad places.  The funny thing is, if you aimed 30 feet away from the hole you'd probably be just as likely to wind up right next to it once or twice.  It just wouldn't feel as good.

This reminds me of the saying John VanderBorght used often when he was getting together with some of us at GCA.com outings back in the day when he was able to do so.  He would say,  "I didn't come 1000 or however many miles, to lay up." 

I confess that when I have had the privilege and rare chance to play a storied classic or highly praised course such as some of TD's and other great modern archies', the last thing I think of is prudent safe play.  Usually, you are in the situation to get one or a weekend kick at that cat, and not playing for more than a fun sum of money with another GCA.com compadre so a seriously best possible score is not a priority.  One dreams for years to get a crack at one of these courses, and if you follow GCA design ideals and history, you usually know in advance the legendary shots or challenges for the 'heroic' famous way to play the particular famous hole or approach.  So, you know you have a 1 in slim chance to pull it off, and you go for it anyway for that opportunity to bask during your dotage that you pulled it off.  ;D ;)   

But, you obviously know this TD and tantalize us.  Did you get that from your early understudy of Dye, or do you have it in your GCA DNA?  8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

cary lichtenstein

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Re: Does knowing the architect before you play a course effect your game plan?
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2015, 03:27:12 PM »
not in the slightest . I play the first 3-4 holes, and make my first assignment and so on, if by the 6th nothing has stood out consistently, i know its an ordinarinary course. every arch does a , b, and c's.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Kalen Braley

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Re: Does knowing the architect before you play a course effect your game plan?
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2015, 03:29:00 PM »
Tom,
 
My context for Jacks courses are not so much about style or look, but more about difficulty.  I've only played a few of them but got beat to death on every one of them....hence when I play a Jack course, I know i'll likely be shooting somewhere north of 100...

Peter Pallotta

Re: Does knowing the architect before you play a course effect your game plan?
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2015, 04:07:53 PM »
RJ - good and interesting post. For me, and along with how lovely they look to my eye, one of the advantages of now playing old persimmon and blades is that it changes my thinking and helps me focus on making the lowest possible score, hole by hole.  So far it's been working, i.e. I'm actually shooting lower scores (and I sure hope that keeps up, because I sold my modern set of clubs and the old ones are all I have left.) That's partly because, unlike many many/most who choose to play with persimmon and old blades, I'm not all that good a golfer and I didn't take up the game as a kid but in my mid 30s; and so, I get a lot of satisfaction from simply making good solid contact -- which for me is the "juice" that others might get firing at a pin or trying to make the impossible shot. (The juice, I have to admit, is also that when I make this good contact, I'm making it with woods named "Ben Hogan"  and irons named "Walter Hagen".) And I find that, when my focus is on good solid contact and not on distance or making the brilliant shot, I end up indeed getting that distance and indeed hitting more greens, or close to them. The "game" that Tom describes above suits me fine -- and while a little part of me thinks I'm now playing like an old man, another and bigger part says that I'm playing more like the way the game has been played for 150 years.
Peter
PS - and besides all of the above, if someone like Jim Sullivan puts his focus on shooting his lowest possible score every hole, that approach is good enough for me.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 04:13:01 PM by PPallotta »

Robert Mercer Deruntz

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Re: Does knowing the architect before you play a course effect your game plan?
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2015, 04:15:32 PM »
There are some modern architects who tend to design courses with formulaic precision.  When playing a Ted Robinson, you know that the holes were pulled up from the computer and fit in. 

jeffwarne

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Re: Does knowing the architect before you play a course effect your game plan?
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2015, 07:59:21 PM »
I'm playing 10 courses next week that I have no idea who the original architect was, though Pat Ruddy had a hand in redesigning three, one of which is one of my favorite places on the planet.
Driving right by Rosapena as the resort gets less charming (creepier actually) every time I return, and can't stand to see the continued bastardization of the OTM course (guess I could figure out the original architect there ;D )  -maybe it's better now than my 2011 visit-who knows.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 10:27:23 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Joe Hancock

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Re: Does knowing the architect before you play a course effect your game plan?
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2015, 08:51:33 PM »
It might affect how many Guinness' I start out with...
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Carson Pilcher

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Re: Does knowing the architect before you play a course effect your game plan?
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2015, 08:57:22 PM »
I wouldn't say game plan but I believe it does your perception.


Most people with any degree of interest, will have a pre-conceived idea of the architect, good or bad. Does anyone play a course these days without scouring the website and google earth first? or seeing where it's ranked?


We give undue credit to those in favour and turn a blind eye to the positives of those who aren't.


How many have played say the Castle Course at St Andrews with a truly open mind? Most are loading the bullets whilst still in the car park.


This is well put.  However, I will say that I actually went to the Castle Course knowing nothing about the course.  A local said I had to play it at least once and took me there.  Half way through the first nine, I said, "This place is sh&t"!

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