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Ru Macdonald

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Keiser To Build in Scotland?
« on: August 31, 2015, 06:45:19 AM »
Rumours surfacing that Mike Keiser may yet build in Scotland.


Over the weekend Golf Channel's Matt Ginella reported on Twitter that Keiser's tribulations with a proposed 6th course at Bandon may see him look to the Scottish Highlands for his next project.


An interview on this very website back in 2005 may suggest where the proposed site might be..
Quote


"I looked at a site in Northern Scotland that had it all, but we could only find 14 holes. We couldn’t get to the 6 to 8 other great holes without crossing a massive sandy expanse. We finally gave up on the site, for now. Go take a look – it’s across the bay from Durness."
Anyone heard anything?
If you have played in Scotland and want to share your experience with other golfers I'd love to talk with you, Scottish Golf Podcast.

David_Tepper

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Re: Keiser To Build in Scotland?
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2015, 06:59:45 AM »
Ru -

There's remote and then there's remote. As I am sure you will agree, anywhere near Durness is very much the later.

There is a nice stretch of linksland north of Embo to Loch Fleet, but I have no idea who owns it or what its status is regarding development.

DT

Rich Goodale

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Re: Keiser To Build in Scotland?
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2015, 07:16:15 AM »
Ru

I think that the Durness site is far more likely that the Embo one, for political and land ownership reasons.  Durness is no more remote than Bandon, and has tremendous development potential if one has a long term vision, which Mr. Kesier certainly does.

Ri
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Ru Macdonald

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Re: Keiser To Build in Scotland?
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2015, 07:18:11 AM »

I was hoping you would comment DT as you know that area well. Absolutely, I got told it was 'near Dornoch'! Perhaps on a map but at least two hours on those roads..

Ru -

There's remote and then there's remote. As I am sure you will agree, anywhere near Durness is very much the later.

There is a nice stretch of linksland north of Embo to Loch Fleet, but I have no idea who owns it or what its status is regarding development.

DT
If you have played in Scotland and want to share your experience with other golfers I'd love to talk with you, Scottish Golf Podcast.

Ru Macdonald

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Re: Keiser To Build in Scotland?
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2015, 07:26:32 AM »
Rich,


Absolutely agree.


Slight tangent but I have for sometime now questioned to what detriment Mr Keiser's Bandon success (together with other 'links inspired resorts' in North America) will have on inbound golf tourism to Scotland. I fear that for the vast majority of many North American millennials the significance of travelling and golfing on our famous links may be lost.


From a Scottish Millennial



If you have played in Scotland and want to share your experience with other golfers I'd love to talk with you, Scottish Golf Podcast.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Keiser To Build in Scotland?
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2015, 07:38:42 AM »
Interestingly, last week I tweeted that Matt G would be tweeting this week about a rumour he'd heard 6 months ago from a well placed source close to a friend of one of Mr K's potential business partners. The source suggested that, if the Scotland deal fell through, Mr. K would likely focus on a site he'd found on the planet Pluto, adding that "with his level of genius at such an enormously high level, I wouldn't bet against Mr. K making Pluto the leading golf destination in the solar system for retail golfers, certainly within the next decade or so". The source later confirmed that there'd be a lottery system to determine the architect of choice for the Pluto project, with each participating architect having to submit two 18 hole routings beforehand in order to have their names dropped into a hat. Early indications are that, along with the architects who worked on the Bandon and Cabot courses, a leading contender for the opportunity to participate in the lottery is Qu Qu, a young Martian designer whom the source describes as "that small planet's version of Jack Nicklaus, Bill Coore and Tom Simpson, combined", noting that while he can terraform when necessary to create the best 18 holes possible, Qu Qu is much better known (on Mars) as a minimalist, one who sometimes eschews even having any greens on his courses if he can't find natural settings good enough to meet his standards. "Listen: if there is a man alive on planet Earth who can get the very best out of Qu Qu, it is Mr. K.  At the very least, he'll make sure there are actually 18 greens on the course, given how well he understands the wants and needs of the retail golfer". Another plus for Qu Qu is that, as this correspondent recently discovered, he speaks perfectly clear English, albeit with a mid-Atlantic accent.  Also striking is the fact (well-noted by the ever-brilliant Mr. K, according to the source) that Qu Qu has no associates or crew, at least not living ones as we understand the term; instead, he has created 6 shapely androids called Va Va Vooomm who do all the work, and need neither food nor rest nor any financial renumeration. By one insider's calculations, this would result in slashing about $3 trillion from the otherwise estimated $6 trillion budget for the "Pluto project", and allow green fees to remain affordable, if in the high-price range, for the majority of the target market (especially for those golfers who choose to stay at the ultra-lux and oxygen-rich on-site accomodations.) "It'll be all golf all the time" suggested the insider, "a walking-only pure-golf experience with no bells and whistles other than great golf, good friends, deliciously authentic Tex-Mex and Pan-Asian cuisine, and of course all the special equipment and apparatus necessary to sustain human existence for even a brief millisecond in the harsh Plutonian environment".  Asked directly if this planned course was to be only the first of several courses at the Pluto Resort, my source refused to answer or even speculate: "I'll just leave that to Mr. K, if you don't mind. I'm sure he'll let you know all in due time. There is no one better at building Pluto-buzz than Mr K."   

Peter
 
 
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 08:48:42 AM by PPallotta »

Clyde Johnson

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Re: Keiser To Build in Scotland?
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2015, 08:17:18 AM »
That is a really cool, and beautiful, parcel of sandy land, that in some ways would be a shame to develop...


...especially when the nine hole Durness GC, across the bay, offers plenty of fun!



 I guess the locals would be happy to see some outside investment, if it ever progresses, however.

Ru Macdonald

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Re: Keiser To Build in Scotland?
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2015, 08:25:48 AM »
Thanks for your useful contribution.


Durness I hear is wonderful and one I would love to visit. It's just so far away!


That is a really cool, and beautiful, parcel of sandy land, that in some ways would be a shame to develop...


...especially when the nine hole Durness GC, across the bay, offers plenty of fun!



 I guess the locals would be happy to see some outside investment, if it ever progresses, however.
If you have played in Scotland and want to share your experience with other golfers I'd love to talk with you, Scottish Golf Podcast.

David_Tepper

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Re: Keiser To Build in Scotland?
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2015, 08:51:06 AM »
"Slight tangent but I have for sometime now questioned to what detriment Mr Keiser's Bandon success (together with other 'links inspired resorts' in North America) will have on inbound golf tourism to Scotland. I fear that for the vast majority of many North American millennials the significance of travelling and golfing on our famous links may be lost."

Ru -

I do think the success and expansion of the Bandon complex has lessened the incentive of U.S. golfers, especially those on the west coast of the U.S., to travel to GB&I for their links golf fix. Several San Francisco Bay Area golfers I know, who used to travel to GB&I for links golf every year or every other year, now go to Bandon annually and only go to GB&I once every 4-5 years.

For those golfers living on the east coast of the U.S., it is still easier to get to GB&I than it is to get to Bandon. ;)

DT
 

Adam Clayman

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Re: Keiser To Build in Scotland?
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2015, 09:34:21 AM »
Does it follow that he would build American style courses in Scotland? Fazio, Art Hills and the Jones brothers likely need the work. And Scots just love Florida style courses.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Keiser To Build in Scotland?
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2015, 09:39:18 AM »
That would be a remote site.  I have travelled in that area a bit, going north from Ullapool and the roads are often one lane with a spot every 100m or so for you to pull into if someone is coming the other way.  But the biggest obstacle on those roads can be the sheep and cattle.

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: Keiser To Build in Scotland?
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2015, 09:41:08 AM »
For those golfers living on the east coast of the U.S., it is still easier to get to GB&I than it is to get to Bandon. ;)
And now they have the option of Cabot as well which is easier as you can fly directly to Halifax from NYC, Boston, Toronto, etc.

Niall C

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Re: Keiser To Build in Scotland?
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2015, 09:49:09 AM »
I was about to type how there was he-haw chance of developing the site in Durness for environmental reasons and then I remembered how the Scottish Government bent over for Donald at Balmedie. That said, the Durness course had a fair amount of restrictions on it when it was built so I've got to think the objections would be times 10 for the site across the way. Having been bitten by one US billionaire I've got to think also the SG will be wary of another.


For all those that have been there by road can you imagine the Perry Golf coaches trying to navigate the up and down wyndy turns of what passes as the main (only ?) road, stopping occasionally to get sheep out of the way. Not likely.


Ironically the Hebrides are probably more accessible and with more possibilities in terms of ideal links land.


Niall

Steve Lang

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Re: Keiser To Build in Scotland?
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2015, 10:33:57 AM »
 8)  I think Peter P nailed it pretty darn well...


I've met the man and I'm pretty sure he's forgotten me and doubly sure he'd ignore my advise that his UK development would be the last place on earth I'd play upon a return, well maybe 2nd to last place...


Sincerely,
recovering Retail Golfer

Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Keiser To Build in Scotland?
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2015, 11:12:57 AM »
I would be surprised if it were at Durness though it is a cracking site. Plenty of good dune land around Dornoch and also one great site just north of Brora that I looked at. Planning department were very open to golf development in that neck of the woods.

Jon

Rick Shefchik

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Re: Keiser To Build in Scotland?
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2015, 11:32:13 AM »
Peter, the Pluto project is probably doomed unless someone -- NASA, the Russians, Richard Branson -- establishes a direct flight. Changing spacecraft at Saturn would be a deal-killer for most retail golfers.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Keiser To Build in Scotland?
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2015, 11:54:36 AM »
Pluto not a planet; rather, a dog.
Coming in August 2023
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George Pazin

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Re: Keiser To Build in Scotland?
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2015, 05:19:33 PM »
A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, a (then) little known architect with the initials TD (can't even begin to guess who that may have been...) posted a thread on here about a site in northwest Scotland, if I recall correctly (and I'm a lot older now, with concomitant memory loss). It's probably such an old thread that only a scant few of us who responded are even still on the site...

My post then, as now, remains the same: have shovel, will travel. Of course, in the meantime, I have gotten married and spawned a family, so my travel plans are less flexible than before.

Does Mike Keiser know this mysterious TD? Have they crossed paths since that thread, so long ago? Is that perhaps a clue? If only TD were still on the site, perhaps he might shed some insight.

Is he?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Paul Gray

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Re: Keiser To Build in Scotland?
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2015, 06:27:56 PM »


Slight tangent but I have for sometime now questioned to what detriment Mr Keiser's Bandon success (together with other 'links inspired resorts' in North America) will have on inbound golf tourism to Scotland. I fear that for the vast majority of many North American millennials the significance of travelling and golfing on our famous links may be lost.


From a Scottish Millennial

The bigger question though is whether Mike Keiser's efforts are detrimental to the game as a whole. Surely they aren't and that's all you really need to know.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Joe Zucker

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Re: Keiser To Build in Scotland?
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2015, 10:26:45 PM »
Rich,


Absolutely agree.


Slight tangent but I have for sometime now questioned to what detriment Mr Keiser's Bandon success (together with other 'links inspired resorts' in North America) will have on inbound golf tourism to Scotland. I fear that for the vast majority of many North American millennials the significance of travelling and golfing on our famous links may be lost.


From a Scottish Millennial


Good question Ru.  As a dreaded fellow millennial, I'm not sure if it takes rounds away from Scotland.  I certainly see your point, that if there is a finite amount of golf trips being taken, rounds at Bandon could take rounds away from Scotland.  But maybe Bandon is a complement to Scottish golf?  You get a taste of the links feel here in the states, then go for the original thing in Scotland later on?


The trip to Bandon is easier for most people in the US, so it is a good introduction to that type of game.  I can see young people going with the somewhat affordable trip to Oregon when they are a relatively poor 20 something, then spring for the longer more expensive trip to Scotland later on.  I guess time will only tell what impact there is, but as Paul said, Keiser is good for the game as a whole and that is all that really matters.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Keiser To Build in Scotland?
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2015, 10:34:46 PM »
George P:


I've never actually been to Durness myself.  I was going to go once, but Bill Coore was there first, and told Mr. Keiser the site was too difficult to build a very-low-budget course on ... too much shifting sand to control.


A year ago I was going to go look at another site for him over there, but again Bill Coore beat me to the punch, and was not sufficiently moved.  I haven't heard anything more about that one, but I guess I am not the first person on Mike's call-back list anymore.  You'd have to ask him why that is.


I do sort of agree with Steve Lang's sentiments here, that creating a great links course in Scotland or Ireland is a far less unique contribution to golf than doing so in Oregon or Nova Scotia ... especially if it's too pricey for the locals and the U.S. golfers have so many other links to choose from.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Keiser To Build in Scotland?
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2015, 11:37:43 PM »
This place is REMOTE:http://www.durnessgolfclub.org/Our%20Club.htm


Looks like fun though.




"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Ru Macdonald

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Re: Keiser To Build in Scotland?
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2015, 09:32:18 AM »
TD
[/size]
[/size]Thanks for taking the time to contribute.  There was me thinking this was yours..
If you have played in Scotland and want to share your experience with other golfers I'd love to talk with you, Scottish Golf Podcast.

Rory Connaughton

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Re: Keiser To Build in Scotland?
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2015, 09:40:19 AM »
JZ

In my experience, Bandon is considerably more difficult to get to than GB&I from the east coast  and if you include lodging at Bandon I have found that a week overseas costs me about the same as 4 days at Bandon.

JJShanley

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Re: Keiser To Build in Scotland?
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2015, 09:45:42 AM »
JZ

In my experience, Bandon is considerably more difficult to get to than GB&I from the east coast  and if you include lodging at Bandon I have found that a week overseas costs me about the same as 4 days at Bandon.


Probably, yes.  Part of the fun of the U.K. is the ability to stay in accommodation that wouldn't pass muster in the U.S.  Gregg's the Bakers probably charges you less for lunch than does the restaurants at Bandon.   

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