[Mike Hendren]

One can't help but fall in love with Cypress Point. It's a rare combination of beauty and promiscuity (in the sense of ease of scoring).
 
Patrick, how many under were you?
 
Bogey

[Kalen Braley]

Mike,
 
17 is a great hole.  Lots of strategy and lots of different ways it can be played....it really is fantastic
 
The only thing it has now, that it didn't before was mature Cypress trees.  In pictures they don't look very big but you have to be quite aways behind them to get a lofted iron up and over them.
 
As for #18, the only thing I can say I like on the hole is the green complex, all the rest of it....not so much.

[cary lichtenstein]

i can't imagine 18 was a bad hole when it was built

[Patrick_Mucci]

it's a tightly woven collection of 18 great holes.

Yes, 18 great holes.

I can't help but wonder is The Good Doctor sacrificed 17 and 18 at the altar of 15 and 16. 
 
Not in the least.
 
But, tell us, what would you do after walking off of the 14th green ?
 
The double par 3's are brilliant and 17 remains a terrific hole.
 
You're all wet on this one.
 
 
Take a good look at the 17th fairway and ask yourself what percentage of the driving zone leaves one totally blocked on the approach. 
 
In 1929 or today ?
 
"Totally blocked" ?
 
Small percentage.
 
 
Mackenzie even doubled down with bunkers in the trees - or is it trees in the bunker.

Did he ever visit Pine Valley prior to 1929 ?
 
Patrick, don't bother defending 17 and 18. 
 
But I challenge you to support your contention that 7, 10 and 14 are great.
 
7 is a great par 3 and a perfect connector hole from the flats up to the high dune and beyond.
 
High tee, up to a high green, well protected with bunkers and well sloped.
 
How else would you go from # 6 green to # 8 tee ? 
 
# 14 is terrific.
You must drive the ball up to the left on that 60 yard wide fairway.
Failure to do so leaves you a blind and very difficult shot over the trees on the right.
 
The approach to the green gets narrow and the green itself is narrow, protected in front by flanking bunkers with the fear of going long ever present in the golfer's mind.
 
It's a terrific par 4.
 
# 10 doesn't match # 2, 5 & 6, but still presents a good three shot challenge with intervening bunkers and a sloped green.
 
That's giving a couple of other holes a pass as well. 

Which ones ?
 
Bogey

[Patrick_Mucci]

If MacKenzie contemplated placing the tee on # 18 on the rock island to the right of the 17th green, would the hole have had the same basic design, or would it be a par 5 ?

[MClutterbuck]

It seems the proposed alternative to 18 would be getting into pretty steep sidehill stuff. Would AM have considered using that land for 18 had he had modern construction equipment available for more aggressive shaping?

I agree nobody would touch AMīs CPC design today (maybe no AM design would be touched today other than lengthening). But if somehow someone found written material indicating such discussion existed and AM would have been intrigued by or favoured such a hole if he had the proper means to make it work, would it be ok to come in and change 18 even if no plans were available?

Certainly would be more politically incorrect than changing #5 at Pebble.

[PThomas]

probably the greatest routing in golf!

and  while 18 might be a letdown - how could it not be? - it is not the terrible hole that many say it is

I've played about 630 courses, and if I could only play one course the rest of my life and could choose 1 course, this would be it

*NGLA is 2nd, and haven't played PV or Shinnecock

[Mike Hendren]

I agree that the hallmark of Cypress Point Club is the routing.  I disagree with Patrick's contention that there are "18 great holes."  I submit that Augusta National Golf Club has significanatly more great golf holes than does Cypress Point Club.
 
Ironic that Patrick defends the 14th (a hole I happen to like as I am a fan of funnel holes) by citing the need to play over trees from the right side of the fairway while Kalen cites the ability to play over the trees in the middle of the 17th fairway in their defenses of the respective holes.  That's not a typical argument made here by the cognoscenti.
 
Patrick has dropped back from calling the one-shot 7th a "great" hole, having demoted it to a "connector" hole.  While I agree that it's a stroke of routing genius to take one up to the 8th tee, the hole itself is merely "good."
 
Patrick wanted me to mention a few others that I don't consider "great."  I'll go with some very good holes:  1, 4, 6, and 13. 
 
I'm not nitpicking Patrick (though it is quite recreational and therapeutic) but I don't see Cypress Point Club as a collection of great holes.  In totality it is a great course. 
 
Again I'll ask you Patrick:  What did you shoot?
 
Me?  84 a few years back.
 
Bogey
 

[Bryan Drennon]

Based on overhead views of the hole and rock island, the hole would extend from 365 to about 425. I confirmed this by looking back at the Shackleford book which mentioned the island would add at least 50 yards to it's 365 yard length. Google earth measurements were right at 60 yards. The line would be a bit more of a dogleg right, assuming the parking area next to the tee was not there at the time. That would make the tee shot about 320 to the left bunker and 285 to the right bunker (blue lines). It would also bring the 2 short bunkers much more into play, especially in the early days. The carry on the left bunker is about 220 and about 230 to reach the bunker on the right (red lines). It's 115 yards from the yellow line at the middle of the dogleg to the middle of the green. It looks like if you hit a 250 yard drive at the long left bunker you'd end up with about 175 to the hole.



This is what the second shot would look like from that approximate tee shot








The book also mentioned the long left bunker as being more directional to aim the golfer up the fairway towards the green. Based on the measurements, that makes perfect sense. I doubt we would hear many complaints about the hole if that tee box had gotten built, especially with the cool factor of it being on a rock island in the ocean and the fact that it would have been an extremely difficult finishing hole. The walk back to the tee would be one of the 3 or 4 best in golf in my opinion. Here's a couple of pics of the island.

If MacKenzie contemplated placing the tee on # 18 on the rock island to the right of the 17th green, would the hole have had the same basic design, or would it be a par 5 ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I agree that the hallmark of Cypress Point Club is the routing.  I disagree with Patrick's contention that there are "18 great holes."  I submit that Augusta National Golf Club has significanatly more great golf holes than does Cypress Point Club.
 
Ironic that Patrick defends the 14th (a hole I happen to like as I am a fan of funnel holes) by citing the need to play over trees from the right side of the fairway while Kalen cites the ability to play over the trees in the middle of the 17th fairway in their defenses of the respective holes.  That's not a typical argument made here by the cognoscenti.

Bogey,

First, I didn't defend the hole by citing the need to play over the trees if the golfer should drive his ball off line to the right. 

Hitting to the far right side of that wide fairway is clearly an errant drive that's incrementally punished.
The trees on the right are an integral element in shaping the golfer's drive.
Think of them as being akin to a large dune that the golfer must traverse should he hit an errant drive.

The two situations are entirely different.
The physical properties of the holes and trees differ significantly.
The trees on # 17 are but 90 yards from the green which allows the golfer to play over or around them without much difficulty.  I did so with an 8 iron, hitting over the right side of the trees.
Only a moron would equate the two 
 
Patrick has dropped back from calling the one-shot 7th a "great" hole, having demoted it to a "connector" hole. 
While I agree that it's a stroke of routing genius to take one up to the 8th tee, the hole itself is merely "good."


Not at all.
Ignoring the function of a hole in determining it's architectural value is a mistake amateurs like  yourself often make.
It is a great hole in its entirety, (function and play).
 
Patrick wanted me to mention a few others that I don't consider "great."  I'll go with some very good holes:  1, 4, 6, and 13.

# 1 is a great opening hole.
You go from the protection of the clubhouse and trees out into the flats and then up to the elevated, well protected, sloped green.  It's a terrific introductory hole.

# 4 is a sensational par 4, how do you not see it's architectural values ?

#6 perhaps not a great par 5, but, certainly a very good one.

# 13 is a great short par 4.

The tee shot into the fairway with the large right side/cross bunker and then the approach to the green saddled into the footpad of # 1green and # 14 tee.

It's one of the most photographed/painted holes in golf
It didn't get that notoriety for nothing. 
 
I'm not nitpicking Patrick (though it is quite recreational and therapeutic) but I don't see Cypress Point Club as a collection of great holes.  In totality it is a great course.

I'm curious to know how a great course can be made up of holes that aren't great ? ? ?
Care to explain ? 
 
Again I'll ask you Patrick:  What did you shoot?

5,5,3,4,5,4,4,3,4,5,5,5,4,4,3,3,4,5.

# 6 played as a par 4 due to fairway bunker construction
The greens were a little slower for a few reasons, one being that it
was wet when we teed off at 7:00.
 
Me?  84 a few years back.

That's why you probably didn't recognize the "greatness" in so many holes
 
Bogey

[Mike Hendren]

Again, you defend the 13th by citing the fact that it's photogenic?  And notorious? 
 
As for #1 you must have a hedge fixation.  BTW I made 3 there from 2 feet.
 
Next I expect you to brag that none of the bunkers on 5 can be seen when looking backward from the green. 
 
Admit it Patrick - you're just another sap who fell in love.  Nothing wrong with that.  No sir.
 
Bogey
 
 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Again, you defend the 13th by citing the fact that it's photogenic?  And notorious? 
 
Bogie, you have so much to learn.
 
WHY is it photogenic ?
 
Could it be that it's the way the green is saddled into the combined footpad of # 1 green and # 14 tee ?
 
Could it be because of how well protected it is by the surrounding bunkering and the wind ?
 
Could it be the combination of those factors ?

As for #1 you must have a hedge fixation.  BTW I made 3 there from 2 feet.
 
You must have been playing the Ladies tees
 
I didn't hit a solid drive and had 180 into a breeze and uphill.
Hit it into the right side bunker.
 
Nothing gets you started like birdieing the first hole.
As Arnold Palmer said, "If you don't birdie # 1, you can't birdie all 18".

Next I expect you to brag that none of the bunkers on 5 can be seen when looking backward from the green. 

That is pretty neat.
 
Admit it Patrick - you're just another sap who fell in love.  Nothing wrong with that.  No sir.
 
This wasn't my first time playing CPC.
I've been playing there since the late 60's.
My appreciation for the genius of the design/routing just grows
with repeat play.
 
It's one of those courses that you can play every day and never tire of it.
 
And, it's one of those courses with wide fairways that still retains a sufficient challenge.
 
It plays alot longer than the 65,24/6,294 on the card.
The air is heavy and the breeze and elevations combine to make it play longer.
 
I think one of the advantages that the ODG's had was that they weren't confined to "balance" when it comes to the nines and par, as they seem to be today.
 
I think AM found the best holes, first.
 
CPC is one of the few courses with back to back par 5's and unbalanced nines.
 
Hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.
 
P.S.  You didn't answer my question.
        How can a great golf course not be comprised of great
        holes ?

 
Bogey

[Mike Hendren]

Patrick, I assume even in New Jorsee there's the old saying:  The whole is better than the sum of the parts. 
 
Btw, I popped my drive up on the first and hit a 5-wood to two feet. 
 
And yes, I cannot enjoy a golf course any more than I did Cypress Point Club.  I am beyond fortunate to have played there.
 
I see that, like your boy Trump, you won't back down so I'm calling it quits here.
 
Mike

[Mike Wagner]

If #7 isn't a GREAT hole, then there is no such thing.

[Sven Nilsen]

Here's a Dec. 1925 Golf Illustrated image showing a marker for the 18th tee out on one of the rocks.  Note that the piece doesn't indicate who the architect was at that point.  I don't know the timing of exactly when AM was involved, but a May 1926 article notes plans for him to lay out the course (in the future tense).  Perhaps the tee in this image was Raynor's idea.

[Joel_Stewart]

I agree that the hallmark of Cypress Point Club is the routing.  I disagree with Patrick's contention that there are "18 great holes."  I submit that Augusta National Golf Club has significanatly more great golf holes than does Cypress Point Club.
 
Patrick has dropped back from calling the one-shot 7th a "great" hole, having demoted it to a "connector" hole.  While I agree that it's a stroke of routing genius to take one up to the 8th tee, the hole itself is merely "good."
 
Patrick wanted me to mention a few others that I don't consider "great."  I'll go with some very good holes:  1, 4, 6, and 13. 

I agree on the 1st, 4th and 6th.  The 3rd isn't that great except for the bunkering. 


Not sure I agree that Augusta is routed better than CPC. In total I also think CPC has more great holes than ANGC.  I'm playing at CPC next week with a person who is a member at both who has a very good eye.  I'll ask him.

[Kalen Braley]

I too also wouldn't call #1, #6, or #10 "great" holes....in addition to the red-headed stepchild 18.
 
However the other holes totally make up for it....and are fantastic.
 
P.S.  Unlike other points of view, I thought the 13th and 14th were both terrific.....

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

I agree that the hallmark of Cypress Point Club is the routing.  I disagree with Patrick's contention that there are "18 great holes."  I submit that Augusta National Golf Club has significanatly more great golf holes than does Cypress Point Club.
 
Patrick has dropped back from calling the one-shot 7th a "great" hole, having demoted it to a "connector" hole.  While I agree that it's a stroke of routing genius to take one up to the 8th tee, the hole itself is merely "good."
 
Patrick wanted me to mention a few others that I don't consider "great."  I'll go with some very good holes:  1, 4, 6, and 13. 

I agree on the 1st, 4th and 6th.  The 3rd isn't that great except for the bunkering. 


Not sure I agree that Augusta is routed better than CPC. In total I also think CPC has more great holes than ANGC.  I'm playing at CPC next week with a person who is a member at both who has a very good eye.  I'll ask him.

Happy to fill in if someone gets a flat tire or something on the way...   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sven,


It was Raynor who suggested the tee on the rock island

[Sven Nilsen]

Sven,


It was Raynor who suggested the tee on the rock island

Pat:


I was just looking back through the Mackenzie timeline to figure out the timing.  Seeing as he didn't arrive in the US until Jan. of 1926, it must have been Raynor. 


Really wish whoever has that Raynor routing would show it to the world.


Sven

[Jim Nugent]

Really wish whoever has that Raynor routing would show it to the world.

Sven

Assume for the moment that Raynor came up with the routing the Mackenzie ended up using.  (Suggesting the 18th tee on the rock at least hints at that.)  Where do you think Raynor, had he finished the course, would have put the templates... and how would the course have turned out compared to what we see today?  I'm guessing the bunkering style would have been totally different.  Probably their placement as well. 

[Scott McWethy]

I've been lucky enough to have played Cypress Point on many occasions, with 1983 being the first.  I have never played another course like it with so many variations.  To play the inland holes that are beautifully sculpted, then play the holes throughout the sand dunes, with the remaining holes playing toward and on the ocean, is so unique.

It is truly my favorite place to play golf and part of that is because of the setting and surrounding areas.  It is such a peaceful place and I've never had that feeling any other place I've traveled to.  I've had people ask me if it is the best 18 holes of golf I've ever played and I would have to say no.  There are some holes out there that I think are good, but not great.  It's the overall experience that elevates everything, but I agree with some other posters that holes #3, #4, #6, and #11 are good, but nothing special.

On the other hand, holes like #7, #8, #9, and of course holes #13 - #17 are all world holes.

When I think of the best 18 holes I've ever played, Sand Hills is the overwhelming favorite for me.  JMO           

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott,


Given the choice of playing only one course for the rest of your life, would it be Sand Hills or CPC ?


CPC would get my vote.

[Padraig Dooley]

The interesting thing about Cypress is the option between the heroic shots and the conservative shots. If a golfer was looking to compile a score, the conservative choice should come up trumps all of the time, yet it's such a thrill to play there the golfer is lured into the excitement of the heroic shot all of the time.

For example, taking a tight line over the dune on 8, hitting driver off 9, going for the green on 16, hitting driver to the left of the trees on 17, these feel like heroic shots to me whereas the smart play dictates a tee shot left on 8, a mid iron off 9, a lay up on 16 and a long iron short of the trees on 17.

Other examples include hitting a raking hook off the 6th tee.

Does anyone else feel like this? I always hit driver off 9, it's just such a thrill if it comes off, it's not that exhilarating hitting a 6 iron off it or laying up on 16.

[Scott McWethy]

Scott,


Given the choice of playing only one course for the rest of your life, would it be Sand Hills or CPC ?


CPC would get my vote.

Pat, I'd take CPC in a heartbeat.  As I mentioned before it's the whole package.  I love Sand Hills and it is a place dear to my heart, but it's a completely different animal.  When I've been lucky enough to go to Cypress, it's everything about the area that makes it just that much more special.  The air you breathe, the fog in the morning that always burns off by about the 5th or 6th hole, the anticipation of getting to the sandy dune holes and then working your way toward 17 mile drive.  I haven't played a ton of courses, but it is the only one that for some reason I get there and I am at my happiest when it comes to golf experiences.  Nothing puts a bigger smile on my face than entering 17 mile drive knowing what awaits.  I think about all the courses that are so hard to get on, especially since most require that you play with a member, and I don't know any of them, but somehow Cypress just worked out.  If I never get a chance to play Pine Valley, Shinnecock, National, Seminole, Oakmont, etc., I still think I got the luckiest break in the world to have played Cypress Point on occassion.  Wouldn't trade any of the visits I've had there for any other place.       

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