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Jason Way

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My season started with Streamsong Blue and will include a fall stop at Lost Dunes.  Well-worn ground for discussion here.  In between though, through happenstance, I have been lucky enough to play 4 of Tom's other courses - Black Forest, The Rawls Course, CommonGround, and Apache Stronghold.  I thought it might be interesting to compare and contrast these courses in one thread.

While up in Michigan in July, I made the trek over to Mr. Doak's Black Forest course at Wilderness Valley.  Sharing a few thoughts and some photos of this gem from Tom's early portfolio seems particularly worthwhile because, given the competition and contraction in the industry, who knows what the future holds for some of these courses (e.g. High Pointe)?  One of the great things that this site/community does is create a historical record, and Black Forest deserves to be a part of that record.       

I found threads on here with discussion of the course and a few photos, but nothing comprehensive.  If I missed a previous thread, please feel free to post the links in a comment.  Perhaps Tom would be willing to share some of his insights about the course, 23 years down the road from its opening, as well.

At the time the course opened, here is what Tom had to say (according to the course website):
- "And then we came back to Black Forest...and started to build bunkers in the same style.  That doesn't seem too radical of an idea today because lots of architects are now building in the same style of bunkers, but in 1990 they weren't and it got the course a fair amount of attention."
- "The tilt and contour of our greens reward the player who is hitting his approach from a particular side of the fairway.  There are also good and bad spots to miss every approach shot, depending on the hole location, so the player who knows the course can hedge to one side of the hole for safety, and the player who aims right at the flag will sometimes take his lumps."
- "The very difficult stretch of starting holes needs to be accepted for what it is.  Even a good player is likely to be a couple over par in the first five holes.  But as long as he doesn't let it bother him, there are a lot of potential birdie holes to make up for it later on."

A few of my observations before getting to the photos:
* The course meanders over rolling hills through the forest.  It truly feels wild and remote, which makes it easy to get lost in your round.  I have played a few courses in hilly N. MI with goofy holes that misuse the hills and therefore create goofy shots.  Not so with BF.  The routing is brilliant.  It's a tough walk, but well worth the effort.
* 6 of the 9 par 4s play under 400 yards from the Blue (regular) tees.  If you like short 4s, this is your course.  They are great fun and challenge to play.
* The closing stretch of holes is awesome with #16 and #17 working their way around a lake, and then the par 5 18th playing uphill through gorgeous bunkering to an outstanding green.  These holes made me feel like I was at Lost Dunes (which I adore).  In fact, setting aside the conditioning, the quality of setting and design of BF is more than worthy of being in the same conversation with LD.
* Through the green features bold bunkering.  Playing Tom's more recent work, (e.g. Streamsong Blue), I get the sense that I am experiencing the work of a team that has a specific creative voice and knows exactly what it wants to accomplish.  BF is different.  There is almost a feel of a creative team cutting their teeth and working out their style right there in front of you.  It's really neat.
* The green surrounds are packed with humps, bumps, mounds, slopes and every kind of bunker you would want to see.  And the greens themselves are a cornucopia of sizes, shapes, angles, and contours.  #12 green is not just one of my favorite Doak greens, it is one of the coolest greens I have ever seen by any architect. 
* Conditioning is definitely rugged, and the course does not look like the pictures on their site.  They are clearly struggling.  I don't know what the story or status of the course is, as I did not get to speak to the staff at length.  The conditions do not obscure the architecture though, so if you are going to head to Forest Dunes to play the TW course, or Tom's reversible course next year, I highly recommend adding Black Forest to your itinerary.  Tough to beat a dose of early Doak in a beautiful setting for $25 (walking).

Without further ado...
« Last Edit: August 21, 2015, 12:02:33 PM by Jason Way »
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Jason Way

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Re: Black Forest at Wilderness Valley - Check-In with Photos
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2015, 10:45:35 PM »
Welcome to Black Forest





FRONT NINE


#1 - Par 5








#2 - Par 4








#3 - Par 4











#4 - Par 4





#5 - Par 3








#6 - Par 4





#7 - Par 5








#8 - Par 3








#9 - Par 4





"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Jason Way

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Re: Black Forest at Wilderness Valley - Check-In with Photos
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2015, 11:01:17 PM »
BLACK FOREST - BACK NINE


#10 - Par 4





#11 - Par 4











#12 - Par 3








#13 - Par 4








#14 - Par 4











#15 - Par 3








#16 - Par 5








#17 - Par 4











#18 - Par 5













Back to civilization after a great round of golf in a special place...


« Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 10:13:35 PM by Jason Way »
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Brent Carlson

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Re: Black Forest at Wilderness Valley - Check-In with Photos
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2015, 11:44:05 PM »
Jason thank you.  I've always found BF a challenging yet enjoyable round.  The feeling of seclusion you get is nearly unparalleled.

Jason Way

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I had a family event down in Lubbock, so I snuck away on a steamy Saturday afternoon to take in The Rawls Course at Texas Tech.


I joined three locals/regulars and they shared with me that the site had previously been a University cotton crop test field, before the golf course opened in 2003.  Given the surroundings, that is no surprise.  Most of Lubbock is suburban sprawl on top of farm and ranch land that is as flat as a pool table.  But stepping onto the 1st tee at Rawls is like stepping into a different world.   What Tom's team created looks natural and like it has been there forever.  It is a beautiful, undulating oasis, with a large ravine snaking through the middle and a large lake around which some of the back nine holes play.


It's dry and windy in West Texas, and so Rawls plays firm, fast and fun over those humps, bumps, and hills.  I asked my partners if it was a windy day for them (it was for me) and they said, "It's not windy if the flags aren't bent over to the ground."  I love golf in those conditions.  Creative shot-making is at a premium.


A few more thoughts:
* The variety of the bunkering on the course is outstanding, as you will see from the photos.  I'm not sure which of Tom's associates did the shaping, but they sure exercised their creative license with it.
* If you like run-offs and chipping areas, you will love Rawls.  Quite a few of the greens have large run-off areas, which can't always be seen when approaching the green.  It is not uncommon to think you have missed the green by a few feet, and find your ball 30-50 feet from the green.
* The par 5s are great fun.  The 2 on the front nine are attackable for birdie, the 2 on the back nine require a more measured, plotting approach.
* The closing 3 holes on both nines are stout.  The back nine closes with a 240-yard redan par 3, and 2 consecutive par 5s that measure more than 1200 yards combined.
* This course makes you not only hit every club in the bag, but every shot in the bag. 


I would not want to play the back tees every day like I did that day, but I could easily see myself happily playing this course repeatedly from the regular tees.  With the wind whipping around, it would never get old.


Photos to come...
« Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 02:32:30 PM by Jason Way »
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Jason Way

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THE RAWLS COURSE - FRONT NINE

#1 - Par 4



#2 - Par 5





#3 - Par 3







#4 - Par 4







#5 - Par 4









#6 - Par 3





#7 - Par 4







#8 - Par 4





#9 - Par 5





« Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 10:16:05 PM by Jason Way »
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Jason Way

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THE RAWLS COURSE - BACK NINE

#10 - Par 3








#11 - Par 4














#12 - Par 4











#13 - Par 4











#14 - Par 4











#15 - Par 4











#16 - Par 3





#18 - Par 5


« Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 10:16:25 PM by Jason Way »
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Jason Way

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CommonGround and Apache Stronghold photos to come as soon as possible.  In the meantime, fire away with your thoughts/questions...
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Tom_Doak

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Jason:


Those are the best pictures I've seen of The Rawls Course.  If I'd had them a month ago it might have made Volume 2 of The Confidential Guide ... too late now, though.


Mostly I was interested to see what our $1 million landscaping plan has produced after +/- 12 years.  It looks like the nursery trees still tend to stand out as individuals, instead of receding into a mass.  And that's the first I've seen of the clubhouse!  They didn't go small, did they?


I have heard multiple reports that Black Forest is struggling ... sad to hear.  $25 green fees are great for golfers, but don't provide much revenue for maintaining the course.

Daniel Jones

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Outstanding stuff, Jason. Well done sir! I recently played The Farm up in North Georgia (Fazio) and many of your pics from Black Forest reminded me of that round, though I prefer the bunkers at BF far more!


Keep em coming!

Jason Way

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Thanks gents. 


The clubhouse is nice, but not completely over the top, Tom.  There is a second building too.  Not even sure what that one was for - offices, or team HQ or some such thing.  I guess it's Texas, right?
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Jim Franklin

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Nicely done Jason. Thanks
Mr Hurricane

Carl Nichols

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Given all of the discussion about how flat the site was/is at the Rawls Course, I was expecting something that looked . . . flatter. 

Tom_Doak

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Given all of the discussion about how flat the site was/is at the Rawls Course, I was expecting something that looked . . . flatter.


The client did not want it to be flat anymore.  And, since it wasn't sandy, we had to make everything surface drain to somewhere.

Jason Way

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Thanks Jim. 


And yes Carl, given the area, I was expecting it to be flatter too (like Talking Stick North).  It does not feel or play flat at all.  Really fun and interesting movement to the ground, at both the macro micro levels.
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Andrew Buck

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Is the picture of #10 at BF from the front or rear of the green?

Jason Way

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Is the picture of #10 at BF from the front or rear of the green?


That is a picture from on top of a knob that is behind the green.  The hole is a slight dogleg left par 4 that plays down through the gap between the trees on either side of the fairway (as you can see in the photo).  The green is set into the side of a gently inclined hill with a bunker above, right (as you approach).  There are cool slopes, humps and contours around the green, which is also really nicely shaped and contoured. 


It is a subtly gorgeous hole, and begins a stretch of three consecutive holes that are among my favorites of Tom's.
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

SPDB

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Tom,
I thought I recall reading either on here or in The CG that you drew inspiration for one of the holes at Black Forest from #16 at The Creek ("Valley"), which is a hole I have always admired. Which hole at Black Forest?

Andrew Buck

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Is the picture of #10 at BF from the front or rear of the green?


That is a picture from on top of a knob that is behind the green.  The hole is a slight dogleg left par 4 that plays down through the gap between the trees on either side of the fairway (as you can see in the photo).  The green is set into the side of a gently inclined hill with a bunker above, right (as you approach).  There are cool slopes, humps and contours around the green, which is also really nicely shaped and contoured. 


It is a subtly gorgeous hole, and begins a stretch of three consecutive holes that are among my favorites of Tom's.

Thanks, it might just be the picture but it appears brutally tight and almost claustrophobic.  Overall looks like a very cool course, and $25 to walk is a steal, just that hole struck me as almost Rich Harvest Links tight.  I need another trip to northern Michigan before too terribly long.

Looking at the overhead now, it appears it would be an interesting walk, is there a way back to the clubhouse after 18?

It's unfortunate that the course appears to needed to make some maintenance cuts, presumably due to financial constraints.  While the bunkers are gorgeous, I'm curious if Tom would have cut back on the quantity if it was being designed with today's projected maintenance budget in mind.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 03:30:21 PM by Andrew Buck »

Tom_Doak

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Tom,
I thought I recall reading either on here or in The CG that you drew inspiration for one of the holes at Black Forest from #16 at The Creek ("Valley"), which is a hole I have always admired. Which hole at Black Forest?


I don't recall saying that.  And I can't really think of a hole that is similar, honestly.

Jason Way

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Thanks, it might just be the picture but it appears brutally tight and almost claustrophobic.  Overall looks like a very cool course, and $25 to walk is a steal, just that hole struck me as almost Rich Harvest Links tight.  I need another trip to northern Michigan before too terribly long.

Looking at the overhead now, it appears it would be an interesting walk, is there a way back to the clubhouse after 18?

It's unfortunate that the course appears to needed to make some maintenance cuts, presumably due to financial constraints.  While the bunkers are gorgeous, I'm curious if Tom would have cut back on the quantity if it was being designed with today's projected maintenance budget in mind.


It's not brutally tight, but likely tighter than intended.  Much of the course is suffering from overgrowth to one degree or another. 


It is not an easy walk, but a really enjoyable one.  And you are right, it is a hike back from the 18th green.  It is also a hike to the first tee.  If I had it to do over again, I would have definitely hit them up for a ride out, and back.
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Andrew Buck

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From the overhead, I'm guessing very few ever walk there ...


... although, that's probably the reality at most courses. 

Jon Heise

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Loved Black Forest.  The seclusion of it I thought was phenomenal.  I also experienced it in a rugged conditions.  Did not know if it was intentional or not, but I really enjoyed it.  Not everything needs to be Forest Dunes like smooth...  Hopefully they can prosper.
I still like Greywalls better.

Jason Way

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On to CommonGround...


I caught a break and was able to sneak out for an evening at CommonGround when a thunderstorm quickly passed through the area south of Denver.  Before getting to the architecture and photos, a few words about the facility.


As someone who is working on renovating a community golf facility along unconventional lines to attract more players, CommonGround is an inspiration.  It is located in a solidly working-class area of Aurora, adjacent to a reservoir.  I’m not sure about what the property used to be (perhaps Tom can comment), but it is now an outstanding 18-hole course, plus a par-3 course, driving range, putting greens and a short game area.  There also seemed to be an element of wildlife habitat preservation.  To me, it is everything that is right about the game in terms of fun, flexibility, and accessibility, without sacrificing quality. 


On site, there is also a caddie academy and the commitment to youth golf is evident.  The course is playable for beginners, and tough enough to host competitive events, such as being a companion site for the recent US Am at Cherry Hills.  CommonGround is clear about its mission, and there is messaging everywhere that reinforces that commitment. 


And oh, by the way, as soon as the sun came out, it was packed on a Monday evening.


I was blown away.


A few photos of the positive messaging around CommonGround:











And photos of the par 3 course:





"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Ryan Coles

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Re Black Forest, I like the look from the pictures. Funnily enough looks not too dissimilar to Sean's of Enville.


Normally on here for a course with such a profusion of trees, I would be reading about green walls, chainsaws and idiot committees.


Instead with this one, we love the "seclusion".


Joking aside, thanks for the thread.

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