[Buck Wolter]

I haven't played it but have heard Northland CC  in Duluth is very difficult to figure out -- very hilly terrain next to  a huge body of water on Ross greens

[Joe Zucker]

Sean and a few others have brought up subtle slopes as a challenge in reading greens, where as I interpreted the original post on Lookout being about macro slopes.  I'm not sure how to really compare the difficulty of each, other than saying both can be very frustrating.

The old seaside course with tough micro slopes make it hard to hole those short and medium length putts.  Lookout has the toughest macro slopes I've ever played.  Never have I been more hopeless from 30 feet.  I can't remember many courses with very tough micro slopes because my putting is usually not reliable enough to claim a misread caused the missed putt. 

Maybe a more interesting question, are there any course that have very tough micro (subtle) and macro (large) slopes?  As I said, Lookout was tough from 30 feet or more, but I didn't have a problem reading the short ones since it was fairly obvious which way the 5 footer was going.  From my experience, these two types of greens are almost mutually exclusive, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone here knows or a course that challenges both types of green reading.

[Cliff Hamm]

When you play Baltusrol it is an axiom that the upper course breaks away from the "mountain". They are still difficult greens to read.

[Josh Tarble]

Joe,
I've found many classic (meaning not rebuilt) greens are very tough from both a micro and macro perspective.  It seems like the golden age greens utilized the broader topography well, and maybe it's just the greens have settled over time or somethign to that effect. But older greens seem to have almost bizarre micro contours that can push the ball either direction.

[PCCraig]

I haven't played it but have heard Northland CC  in Duluth is very difficult to figure out -- very hilly terrain next to  a huge body of water on Ross greens

Northland's greens are very hard to read correctly on your first play.

[Joe Zucker]

I would agree with that Josh.  The older course have more subtlety and it is probably a product of how the ground has settled over a century, rather than a conscious effort during construction.  I can't think of a modern course that has had much in the way of tough micro undulations, which tells me that they are tough/impossible to create.

[Lester George]

Lookout Mountain are the hardest greens to read that I have ever seen.  Playing there with other golf course architects solidifies that for me as we often didn't believe what the ball was doing to the point where after two or three people in the group misread the putt, the fourth could sometimes not bring himself to putt the ball differently.  At least a 5 or 6 shot advantage to the member.

Lester

[Carl Rogers]

I am not the best green reader,  but far far from the worst ....
After 2 rounds at the Cascades (Flynn mountain course in Virginia) ... it might take me another 8 to 10 rounds not get fooled by, in my perception, the counter intuitive nature of many green complexes.  The basic roll and break is always straight forward, but there is enough hard to read counter or altered slopes to make mid distance putting kind of embarrassing.
Lester, kind of the same challenge at Ballyhack.
Maybe it is just mountain courses.

[Paul OConnor]

The Bayonet Course in Seaside CA had some of the most difficult reads for me.  After a few holes of terrible, sometimes backwards reads,  I was just completely confused.   Uphill/downhill couldn't tell...  I was reading 5 feet of break left to right, went five feet the other way...

[BCrosby]

To me, part of the greatness of Dornoch is the fact that short putts gang aft agley.  I once hit my tee shot on the 2nd to 8 feet or so, uphill, and hit a good putt that never threatened the hole.  My good friend and playing partner, the great, laconic and sadly late Jim Cunnigham, said:

"Only a long time member of Dornoch like you could have missed that putt."

Perfect.


Bob

[Tim_Weiman]

Best green reading experience I ever had was at Winged Foot with Neil Regan who graciously hosted myself and Tommy Naccarato.


I remember one putt on the famous Par 3 10th hole that Tommy and I couldn't see for the life of us. But, then Neil explained:


"Don't worry. Ninety percent of our members don't get it either".


Very reassuring!

[Jason Topp]

The Maxwell greens I have experienced (Old Town, a few holes at Veenker and Crystal Downs) give me the most fits.  There are two breaks on almost every putt. 


At least on mountainside courses such as Northland or in Colorado you know what direction the slope is going to push the ball.

[Doug Siebert]

Hardest greens to read?  For me, TOC, hands down!  The ball rolls true there, and I putted where I aimed last time I played but took 42 putts!  Only one was longer 60 feet - and while that one was a ridiculous 150+ feet so a three putt would be understandable, I four putted...

Drove me nuts even five footers I couldn't read correctly.  Didn't have that problem at other links courses, but happened to me both times I played TOC.

[Will Peterson]

When I played Lookout Mountain, the head pro gave me a map of the grounds.  He put the high point and low point on it.  After the second hole, I just used those points to determine all the break.  It actually worked pretty well.  One of the putts looked to be going uphill to an upper tier, but the putt played downhill as the low point was straight behind the green.  Weirdest thing I've ever seen.  Absolutely loved the course.

[Ian Andrew]

Lookout Mountain are the hardest greens to read that I have ever seen.  Playing there with other golf course architects solidifies that for me as we often didn't believe what the ball was doing to the point where after two or three people in the group misread the putt, the fourth could sometimes not bring himself to putt the ball differently.  At least a 5 or 6 shot advantage to the member.

I was low round of all the architects by quite a bit. The last membership before my current one was a course built on the side of an escarpment. So I asked someone in the shop "where does everything break to or from" and he gave me a point on the mountain to use. I had no three putts and made two long ones that day. I always trusted the point on the mountain and ignored "my eyes".


On large elevations you can no longer see grade on greens because your perception can't work in that extreme a setting. Find the mountain ...

[Will Lozier]

When I played Lookout Mountain, the head pro gave me a map of the grounds.  He put the high point and low point on it.  After the second hole, I just used those points to determine all the break.  It actually worked pretty well.  One of the putts looked to be going uphill to an upper tier, but the putt played downhill as the low point was straight behind the green.  Weirdest thing I've ever seen.  Absolutely loved the course.

Will,


Did he tell you or did you find that, when in doubt, putts should break towards the second green?

[Will Lozier]

I don't recall ever having difficulty reading the greens at Lookout Mountain.

Ben,


This is a statement so far from what I've experienced and have heard from every other player who's played LM. I find it hard to believe that ANYONE has never found those greens to be challenging to read on some level.


I am curious to know what your best putting round at LM looked like?


Cheers

[Josh Tarble]

The Maxwell greens I have experienced (Old Town, a few holes at Veenker and Crystal Downs) give me the most fits.  There are two breaks on almost every putt. 


At least on mountainside courses such as Northland or in Colorado you know what direction the slope is going to push the ball.

That's interesting...I've only play Crystal, but I thought the greens were fairly easy to read.  Now actually putting the ball in the hole is a different story.

[Scott Wintersteen]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Prairie Dunes yet.  I thought they were very tough the first time around the course.  However after playing the course a couple of times I started to get the feel of them. 

[Chris DeToro]

I've always found greens on mountain courses very difficult to read.  Subleties can often be much bigger movements

[Jeff_Brauer]

I agree it has to be mountain and hilly sites. A few good players here in DFW claim Fazio greens at Dallas National are very hard to read, and Faz greens usually aren't that tough. I think the hilly site has a lot to do with it, but could be wrong, as he has put a few subtle slopes in there as well.  I have mentioned the 5th before, where Trevino complains that a small ridge of 4-5% in the middle of the green can make it virtually impossible to get a chip close to any pin beyond it from where you are, on an otherwise 2% slope green.

I have measured many greens, and in hilly sites, for construction practicality, catching up to grade faster, natural drainage outlets, etc., you almost have to follow the grade, and usually put more slope in it than you normally would.

Visually, a flat green looks like it breaks toward the mountain. Even a green sloping a normal 2-3% in the natural downhill direction may look canted the other way.  And, in most cases, the hillier the site, the more the side slope to then natural downhill slope is.  I have used my digital level to measure such slopes, and inevitably, what looks like a 2% slope to the right can end up being 6-7%.

So, even when you get the direction right, you usually vastly underestimate the break.

[Lester George]

Well said Jeff.  Do we have records to substantiate Ian's claim of low architect at Lookout Mountain? Hmmmm.... Even if not, no three putts is an incredible feat on those greens.  Good stuff Ian.

Lester

[Will Peterson]

When I played Lookout Mountain, the head pro gave me a map of the grounds.  He put the high point and low point on it.  After the second hole, I just used those points to determine all the break.  It actually worked pretty well.  One of the putts looked to be going uphill to an upper tier, but the putt played downhill as the low point was straight behind the green.  Weirdest thing I've ever seen.  Absolutely loved the course.

Will,


Did he tell you or did you find that, when in doubt, putts should break towards the second green?

Will,


He gave me a map of the course, and he drew two arrows on it.  One at the high pointing towards the low and one at the low pointing off the map.  I just started to look for the low point after the second hole because putts didn't seem to be breaking the way I saw.

[Mark Bourgeois]

The caddies at ANGC say you don't read those greens you remember them.

[Bill Seitz]

Some of the greens at Greywalls are really difficult to read. Especially 7 and 18. On a micro level, just looking at the green surface, they appear to be either level or break back to front.  That bias is reinforced by the fact that most greens just about everywhere have at least a slight back to front cant. But if you take into account your surroundings, and realize that from tee to green the holes are very downhill, you'll find out that what looks like an uphill putt is really a downhill putt. On average, Mike DeVries' greens have a ton of internal contour, but it's the really subtle breaks on some of his holes that can be diabolical.

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