[Will Lozier]

Having been lucky enough to play Lookout Mountain for the 2nd and 3rd time recently, I am still scratching my head at how difficult the greens are to read. Many putts look like they break significantly one way and move the same amount in the opposite direction. Being on top of a mountain rather than the side, like many courses in New England, makes these the hardest I've ever come across to read correctly for both line and speed as uphill and downhill putts can be misjudged badly as well. Local knowledge at Lookout Mountain is more significant than any course I can think of. What other courses present a similar challenge?

[Mark Pritchett]

Will,


This is funny, I read the subject title and thought to myself I am going to click and post "Lookout Mountain".  The 16th green still blows my mind overtime I putt on it. 


Mark

[BCowan]

Will,

I agree completely.  It's a 5 shot advantage atleast being a Homer there. 

[Paul Jones]

Oakland Hills and Oakmont were the hardest for me.

[Brent Hutto]

I've not played at Lookout Mountain and in fact my resume of courses played in that sort of terrain is rather limited.


But most recently I spent a week in Harlech playing at Royal St. Davids and it was a similarly confounding experience. What makes it doubly so is the fact that, by and large, the greens are Harlech are of the somewhat flattish links type low-profile surfaces. There are some quite contoured ones but I've never had such trouble reading basically flat greens and I did a few of the holes there.


The situation of Royal St. Davids is unusual in that you have no view of the sea due to a really large series of dunes separating the links from the beach. But on the opposite side of the course a truly enormous hillside looms over you at nearly every moment of the round. Somehow being on flattish land with rather abrupt high dunes in one direction and that great sloping hillside in the other seemed to leave me with a perpetual feeling of vertigo every time I tried to get a "big picture" view of a green.


Even after several rounds there I was reduced to pretty much taking a narrow, blinkered view of the stretch of green between my ball and the hole. On normal courses I find it best to do a more holistic read of a putt, even as I'm walking up onto the green initially, rather than focusing too intently on trying to discern slopes and contours near the hole. At Harlech I had to stick to the little picture because the big picture was overwhelming.


I actually enjoyed putting on the few obviously sloping greens there because the breaks were obvious regardless of the surroundings.

[Rees Milikin]

Will,


This is funny, I read the subject title and thought to myself I am going to click and post "Lookout Mountain".  The 16th green still blows my mind overtime I putt on it. 


Mark

Holes 3, 7, 15 & 16 at LMGC are some of the toughest greens I have ever tried to learn.  No matter how many times I play there, they always get me one way or another.

[Doug Wright]

Like Lookout Mountain, just about any Colorado mountain/foothill course presents this challenge. The toughest of these in my experience are Broadmoor East/West, Hiwan and the Red Sky Ranch courses.

[Frank Kim]

It helps to look at the putt from both sides at Lookout Mountain more than my experience at other courses.

[Joe Zucker]

I would definitely agree on Lookout Mountain.  I have played a ton of mountain top golf, but from the few times that I have the entire course usually falls in one direction.  Lookout Mountain did not have this easy crutch to fall back on.  In my one trip around the course I hit a lot of putts 20 feet by the hole.  Even when I tried to walk the line and feel the slope in my feet, I still misjudged the speed frequently.  Maybe wit ha few more rounds there I could figure out a better technique.  Or maybe I would just have to memorize where the slopes deceive my eye.

[Terry Lavin]

Kapalua perplexed the heck out of me.  Oakmont humbled me.  Cherry Hills flummoxed me.

[Pete Lavallee]

Agreed that Lookout Mountain has some very deceptive slopes that go away from the general slope of the property.
For me though Westward Ho! or Royal North Devon has greens that have unique microundulations. Because they don't top dress those greens there is no overall homogeneous slope on every green; completely baffling!

[Matt Glore]

The Pete Dye course at French Lick was impossible for me to read, it looks like the Sr. PGA guys thought the same thing. 

[Andrew Simpson]

I've not played at Lookout Mountain and in fact my resume of courses played in that sort of terrain is rather limited.


But most recently I spent a week in Harlech playing at Royal St. Davids and it was a similarly confounding experience. What makes it doubly so is the fact that, by and large, the greens are Harlech are of the somewhat flattish links type low-profile surfaces. There are some quite contoured ones but I've never had such trouble reading basically flat greens and I did a few of the holes there.


The situation of Royal St. Davids is unusual in that you have no view of the sea due to a really large series of dunes separating the links from the beach. But on the opposite side of the course a truly enormous hillside looms over you at nearly every moment of the round. Somehow being on flattish land with rather abrupt high dunes in one direction and that great sloping hillside in the other seemed to leave me with a perpetual feeling of vertigo every time I tried to get a "big picture" view of a green.


Even after several rounds there I was reduced to pretty much taking a narrow, blinkered view of the stretch of green between my ball and the hole. On normal courses I find it best to do a more holistic read of a putt, even as I'm walking up onto the green initially, rather than focusing too intently on trying to discern slopes and contours near the hole. At Harlech I had to stick to the little picture because the big picture was overwhelming.


I actually enjoyed putting on the few obviously sloping greens there because the breaks were obvious regardless of the surroundings.

Been a few years since I played RStD and I doubt there are any major changes since then but it's just another links course with all the indicators there to read a putt. The castle looks great towering over you but it's never influencing anything on the course.
 Distant objects/horizons may help set up your levels and perspective but the only thing that ever matters is looking at the ball to the hole!
 Sounds like I'd enjoy reading the greens at Lookout Mtn though.

[Bill_McBride]

Like Lookout Mountain, just about any Colorado mountain/foothill course presents this challenge. The toughest of these in my experience are Broadmoor East/West, Hiwan and the Red Sky Ranch courses.

At the Broadmoor we figured out that all putts break away from the bells, even if they don't.  I never saw so many putts break uphill, but the location of the carillon was very helpful. 

[Ben Hollerbach]

I would say in general greens on mountain golf courses are deceptively difficult to read as the exaggeration of the slope on the rest of the course is so great that the green all seem to look rather flat in comparison and they trick the brain. That being said. I don't recall ever having difficulty reading the greens at Lookout Mountain.

[Brent Hutto]

Not really on topic but...


At my former club there was a guy in my usual group who was a infamous head case. Off the course, bright guy. But for 3-1/2 hours on a weekend morning he would get stuck halfway between crazy and stupid.


He's plumb bobbing an 8-foot par putt and asks his partner, "Does this break more than I think it does?". Moment of silence. Partner says, "Well, I don't how much you think it breaks". He says, "Exactly. Thanks." Then he steps up and leaves it three feet short of the hole.

[cary lichtenstein]

There was a course in Maui, impossible to read. Another course in a valley in Southern California, I remember walking up to the head pro and saying, "okay, I give up, what's the secret to reading these greens?" he responded that they r unpredictable


On top of the mountain Cordellia I think and Red SKY IN VAIL, BREAKS DEFIED GRAVITY


Pebble Beach was no picnic in the old days with heavy poa


My one trip around Oakmont was a disaster

[Nigel Islam]

I would rank Lookout ahead of Oakmont. It's one thing when the putt breaks 10 times more than you think it should, but when it breaks the opposite way every single hole......

[Tim Gavrich]

I haven't been to Lookout Mountain, but the toughest greens I've ever tried to read are those of its cousin, Yale. For all the huge contours, there are tons of little micro-breaks that wreak havoc on shorter, seemingly makeable putts, all the time.

[Brian Bowman]

Potentially not the most difficult greens to read but some of the toughest that I've ever played have to be Ross' greens at Hyde Park CC in Cincinnati, most short putts tend to break a lot, with a lot of speed

[Jon Wiggett]

A lot of the greens on older courses in the UK are tough to read having small, subtle breaks that are just enough to take the ball off the read line. Dewsbury had 3 greens (3rd, 7th and 14th) which looked to break on way but in fact went the other. Local knowledge is a wonderful thing 

Jon

[Rich Goodale]

Interesting thread.  My experience is that the most difficult greens to read are the oldest ones, as they are rife with micro-undulations created over time by mother nature rather than an architect and/or shaper.  Because most young greens are designed/shaped/maintained to a perfectely executed plan, an experienced eye can see the plan and putt accordingly.  Applebrook and Pacific Dunes in 2001 come to mind.

To me, part of the greatness of Dornoch is the fact that short putts gang aft agley.  I once hit my tee shot on the 2nd to 8 feet or so, uphill, and hit a good putt that never threatened the hole.  My good friend and playing partner, the great, laconic and sadly late Jim Cunnigham, said:

"Only a long time member of Dornoch like you could have missed that putt."

[Sean_A]

Rihc


I agree with you.  Many of these old courses have such subtle borrows that have devloped over time that it can be downright frustrating to miss consistently miss putts which don't break more than 4 inches.  I especially struggle with sloping greens that are found on hills.  Even courses I know well such as Kington are difficult because speed is so important with slope and the speed is never consistent. One other course I struggle on is Beau Desert. Part of the reason for this is the subsidence which has created a visual disonance on several greens. 

New courses may take a few plays, but the big bold undukations can be figured out fairly quickly compared to some of the old courses. 


Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Greens in dappled sunlight, especially if there's a bit of wind moving the branches.


Bigger slopes are obvious but 'flat' greens are never really 'flat'.


When there's a strong wind - it's surprising how much a putt will move in the wind.


And as green speed gets quicker all of the above increase.


atb

[Matt Frey, PGA]

The Pete Dye course at French Lick was impossible for me to read, it looks like the Sr. PGA guys thought the same thing.

I agree with Matt. French Lick's Dye Course greens look like they all break a decent amount, but most of the putts move very little. I used my caddie on all 18 greens each time I played and my batting average for correct reads on my part was well below .500.

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