[Brett_Morrissy]

There is of course always some kind of higher rhythm in that a routing is usually played in sequence. But I wonder if the best has a rhythmic type metronome providing balance to a round of golf. For me, if this interacts with the natural ground and setting well, it makes for endlessly enjoyable and interesting golf.

If this can be accomplished across, in and out, over and through different land classes, terrains and vegetation, I think it lifts it into a higher level. How the design and routing traverse and engage with ravines, barancas, water bodies, drains, burns, bumps, desert, forest, dunes, and even chocolate drops add to the intrigue and maintain interest in the interaction with this natural environment. Then from a playing perspective, wind direction, or more exposed areas of a site, wind strength and sun path can provide the finishing touch to the natural rhythm - it just somehow feels right.

Do you agree? Appreciate any insights.

[Scott Szabo]

You just described Ballyneal perfectly!

[Brett_Morrissy]

Hey Scott! that was not one of the courses I had in my head when asking this, but you are right, Ballyneal has a really nice balance and rhythm.

[Adam Clayman]

This rhythm you speak of, separates the great golf courses from all the others.
That's why there are so few of them. 

[Brent Hutto]

I'll ponder on this for a while but here's a question you might want to consider to explore the concept of "rhythm".


Try to think up a pair of courses built on similar terrain and with a similar mix of holes. Not "mix" as in number of Par 3/4/5 holes but whether there are a wide range of hole lengths or a more restricted range. But they do not have the same "rhythm" in the way that mixture of holes fall within the round.


Then ask whether the one whose "rhythm" suits you is generally recognized as better than the other one.


It may take me a while to think up a candidate pair for comparison since I've not played nearly as many different courses as some of you guys (and my recall of the details isn't nearly as good as some).

[Marty Bonnar]

You'd think the fatbaldydrummer would be all about rhythm, wouldn't you, but I must confess to also being incredibly fascinated by the melody of a golf course too. By that, I mean the way that certain 'phrases' are set up, repeated, modified, translated and generally jazzed around with.
Look at repetition, for example. Say in the case of bunker shaping. There can easily be an opening theme, which can be played around with over the rest of the round.
There will be crescendos, pianissimos, fortissimos, places where the tempo feels faster or slower, places where the melody is like singing, places where it's more instrumental.
Okay, I'm pushing it now, but you get the general idea, right?
Time to open the Shiraz...

F.

[Josh Tarble]

Rhythm and pacing is one of the reasons I love to discuss Streamsong.  They are both similarly designed courses on similar land.  Both are very good, but the pacing of the Blue is what makes it for me.  It takes you on a journey of golf holes, mixing difficult with easy and wild with tame.  Its truly a fantastic ride.


In comparison, the Red keeps on the edge the entire time, where one shot can spell disaster.  Two different ways of approaching a course and what makes the 2 such great compliments of each other.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Thanks for the input.

This rhythm you speak of, separates the great golf courses from all the others.
That's why there are so few of them. 

Adam, I hesitated to use the word great, as I was hoping it wouldn't be the case. But I am always drawn back to the the better courses Ive seen for this example - so perhaps the challenge is to find less celebrated courses that have this feel about them - or do you not think it is possible?

I'll ponder on this for a while but here's a question you might want to consider to explore the concept of "rhythm".

Try to think up a pair of courses built on similar terrain and with a similar mix of holes. Not "mix" as in number of Par 3/4/5 holes but whether there are a wide range of hole lengths or a more restricted range. But they do not have the same "rhythm" in the way that mixture of holes fall within the round.

Then ask whether the one whose "rhythm" suits you is generally recognized as better than the other one.

Brent - I have a few pairs in mind, and I agree with your premise that one is better than the other, but I don't believe that is everyone's opinion. Does this mean that this sense of rhythm is only personal interpretation and perception and not fact?

You'd think the fatbaldydrummer would be all about rhythm, wouldn't you, but I must confess to also being incredibly fascinated by the melody of a golf course too. By that, I mean the way that certain 'phrases' are set up, repeated, modified, translated and generally jazzed around with.

F.

FBD - does a metronome play a role in what you describe - I am not much of a musician, do melody and rhythm coexist, or are they different beasts? But I do like the incorporation of 'phrases', if I understand correctly, throughout a routing, and there are lots of ways to do this - correct?

Rhythm and pacing is one of the reasons I love to discuss Streamsong.  They are both similarly designed courses on similar land.  Both are very good, but the pacing of the Blue is what makes it for me.  It takes you on a journey of golf holes, mixing difficult with easy and wild with tame.  Its truly a fantastic ride.


In comparison, the Red keeps on the edge the entire time, where one shot can spell disaster.  Two different ways of approaching a course and what makes the 2 such great compliments of each other.

Thanks Josh, I'm yet to see SS, do you sense there is this notion of a constant, metronomic balance to one of these more than the other? or is this sense of rhythm just to a different beat?


Do both Red and Blue interact or engage with the existing features in a similar way, or did the designers take a different if not opposing approaches?

[Sean_A]

No question I like rhythm in a course, but it doesn't rely so much on types of holes as much as the flow.  For instance:

eliminating down-time with walks between holes
eliminating walking back to tees especially when the house is in sight
not many holes in the same direction if wind or terrain is a major feature
similar length holes back to back in opposite directions to highlight wind
relatively easy start and finish
start and fisish near the house

I fully accept these are personal preferences rather than defacto best practice so I am not sure rhythm is anything but personal preference. 

Ciao

[Marty Bonnar]

FBD - does a metronome play a role in what you describe - I am not much of a musician, do melody and rhythm coexist, or are they different beasts? But I do like the incorporation of 'phrases', if I understand correctly, throughout a routing, and there are lots of ways to do this - correct?

Nicely put, Brett. So, a metronome sets a beat, aka the rhythm. In a pop context, picture the bass and drums. They SET the frame/rhythm of how the music is played i.e. the timing. The melody, or TUNE, can then twiddle and fiddle around that.
Note, the interesting thing is that, if all you do is set a beat and play a tune around that, it would not only sound a bit dead and boring, it wouldn't really be 'music'. What is needed is spontaneity and improvisation around those BASIC RULES and that is exactly where the architecture/music analogy is most pronounced.
Simply put, we need a basic framework to set things up, but, without any freedom of expression, the result will be dull and boring. Magic is born when a spark ignites between control and madness!
I personally think that applies in almost every artform, but I'm a bit of an old fart!
Cheers,
F.

[Adam Clayman]

Brett, I was in err. There are lesser than great courses with rhythm. And there are quickly becoming more and more labeled great courses, that have none.

[Brent Hutto]

Adam,


My initial thinking is much the same. I don't think the kind of rhythm I value is necessarily correlated with generally accepted "greatness".


A comparison I had come up with was the Ocean Course at Kiawah vs. Sage Valley. The individual holes of the Ocean Course are on the whole just amazingly good. I love playing there but always think the rhythm is not ideal. SV does not have on average quite that quality of holes but it seemed to flow very nicely (based on just one round played there).


Many people would consider the Ocean Course great and the rest probably would say near great at least. Sage Valley is seldom mentioned in "greatness" conversations.

[Brent Hutto]

Here's my thought on Uncle Marty's metronome...


I think Par 4 holes are the "metronome" of a round of golf. One of my music teachers once advised me that "You can't play ahead or behind the beat unless you know where the beat is in the first place". That's why courses with fewer than nine or so Par 4's seem to feel a bit awkward to me. I need to keep coming back to that fundamental Tee Shot, Approach Shot, Putt (or chip) and Putt" four-square beat fairly often. More than 2 or 3 holes in a row away from that "metronome" leaves me feeling like I'm missing something.


It's also why playing short enough tees to reach the majority of holes in one or two full shots suits me best. Too many hit-hit-hit three shotters feels like one of those interminable drum solos with so many diddles and rolls that you eventually lose track of what key the tune was in.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Brent, with the four square beat analogy you use above, perhaps that is also why a course, (TOC) with just 2 P5's and 2 P3's is possibly able to maintain that sense of good rhythm.

I havent heard your fundamental tee, approach, putt/chip, putt.

is it also why those that 3 putt the most are the most unhappy?

[Brent Hutto]

is it also why those that 3 putt the most are the most unhappy?

That brings to mind another musical analogy. You can miss a note anywhere you like as long as you nail the finish. But when you screw up the last note in a song everyone will think you suck. That third putt is the same idea.

[Ian Andrew]

It is an emotional response, so it is a very personal experience.


There are courses like Merion with a very distinct rhythmic pattern that seems to have a fairly broad appeal. TThere are others that only impact some people.


I've written before about the value of the long walks before the changes in geography at Highlands Links. I always thought they added something special to the (walking) experience. I think they create a fascinating rhythm to the round. But perhaps that's just me, since I'm an avid  hiker too.


I do think rhythm can be intentional created/attempted. For example in roller coaster design the designer must incorporate a long enough release of emotion before entering into a second round of intensity. It can't all be barrel rolls or the rider is made to feel sick.


But there's no guarantee in golf design that a player will feel what you hope them to feel.
 

[Peter Pallotta]

The golf courses I like are in 3/4 time (i.e. ONE, two, three, ONE, two, three.) The 12th-to-13th hole is a particularly important section of the course, an opportunity for a change of pace, or for a 'bridge', since at that point we've had 4 full bars. (The long green-to-tee walk at Crystal Downs, IMHO, comes one hole too early)

Sam Snead played golf in 3/4 time, and was good at the Masters. Ben Hogan played in 4/4, or even 2/4 time. That's why Mr Hogan was especially good at the US Open, and the steady, relentless, metronomic rhythm of the typical US Open courses: one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four. 

I'll leave my love for syncopation or emphasis on the up-beats or 5/4 time for music. And even then: as wonderful a song as Take 5 is, even drummer Joe Morello seems to struggle with the rhythm during his solo. I have a feeling from what I've read that Tobacco Road might be in 5/4.

One more thought and then I'd better join FBD for a stiff drink: in 3/4 time, the 2nd beat is the 'weakest'. Is the 2nd hole ever anyone's favourite hole on the course?

[cary lichtenstein]

There were several courses that just got better and better as i played them where I never wanted the round to end, the terrain and holes just  kept opening to reveal amazing stuff. Pine Valley, Pebble Beach, Spyglass, Highland Links, Lakota Canyon, Pelican Hills, Cypress, Casa De Campo, Whistling Straits, Royal Dornock, St.Andrews, Dubsdread, National,  [size=78%]                                                                                                                                                                                                 [/size]

[Carl Rogers]

IMO, the strength of the Cascades is it's sequencing which could be called rhythm.

[Kalen Braley]

When we say rythmn, aren't we just really using a different word for variety??  I think of all the best courses I've played and that is a common theme to all of them.  You step up to the tee and your seeing something different than whats come before.....
 
If not, what would the difference between rythmn and variety be?  Any example of a rhythmic course with no variety and visa versa?

[Brent Hutto]

No there are courses like Tobacco Road with tremendous variety but no discernible rhythm to the round. More like "one damn thing after another" if you know what I mean.


BTW, I'm saying this as someone who purely loves Tobacco Road. But rhythm and flow are not among its advantages.

[Brett_Morrissy]

IMO, the strength of the Cascades is it's sequencing which could be called rhythm.

Carl, with a name like the Cascades, maybe the sequencing there could be called 'flow'

When we say rythmn, aren't we just really using a different word for variety??  I think of all the best courses I've played and that is a common theme to all of them.  You step up to the tee and your seeing something different than whats come before.....
 
If not, what would the difference between rythmn and variety be?  Any example of a rhythmic course with no variety and visa versa?

Kalen, I am with Brent on this, I do not see variety and rhythm as the same thing, although great courses have variety and probably beautiful rhythm as well.
Again, if you imagine a metronome ticking away very slowly as you play a round of golf, that is how I see it. To emphasise what is not rhythm - really long walks between tees on paved paths thru residential housing.
I think it is why a lot do not like playing golf in a cart - the constant stopping and starting, disturbs the 'flow' of not only the golfers round, but it is very difficult to stay in touch with the rhythm of the golf holes and the routing.

I have to say that I do not feel Pebble has the rhythm we have discussed above, even though it has a figure '8' type routing, which should always bode well in the rhythm stakes, and of course this is a personal opinion that is in the minority here on GCA,  but it is one of the reasons I didn't enjoy it, and of course in the back of mind is this nagging feeling of how would it be different if I had a game by myself and no one in front. it may be different, but I don't have that experience. 

[Kalen Braley]

Brett,
 
I think you and Brent gave some good examples of how they differ, which I would tend to agree with.
 
So what if you are playing a course with good rythmn but its a busy day and you have to wait 10 minutes on each tee box. Or the course was wet and you're playing lift, clean, and replace. It seems rythmn in this situation could be very subjective.
 
Which begs the question, my local muni could then have awesome rythmn if I'm the first one out at 6 AM and am waiting on no one.....

[Brent Hutto]

Brett,
 
I think you and Brent gave some good examples of how they differ, which I would tend to agree with.
 
So what if you are playing a course with good rythmn but its a busy day and you have to wait 10 minutes on each tee box. Or the course was wet and you're playing lift, clean, and replace. It seems rythmn in this situation could be very subjective.
 
Which begs the question, my local muni could then have awesome rythmn if I'm the first one out at 6 AM and am waiting on no one.....

Slow play, soggy conditions, severe wind or even my own golf game being totally screwed up are all things that can destroy whatever potential for rhythm a course might offer. Or the biggest rhythm destroyer of all, playing with a golf cart.


My problem with playing solo on a course that's open ahead of me (in my case that's much more likely to happen on a miserably hot August Monday afternoon than at 6am!) is that if I'm not careful I'll end up walking at a near jog and playing way too fast to settle into a proper rhythm.


In recent years I've taken to checking the time every couple holes during those wonderful, wide-open solo rounds and making sure not to go much faster than 8 minutes per hole or thereabouts. I've played at an hour per nine pace a few times and I neither play well nor get much of a sense of relaxation. Plus it just sucks to be hitting shots while you're out of breath.

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